AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Hyouka

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-07-23, 09:05   Link #21
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Say what you will about Irisu, but she tends to help people out when folks ask her for help. Eru got a lot more help from Irisu in Episode 14 than she got from anybody else that she asked for help from in this recent arc...
Them eyes.
__________________
Skane is offline  
Old 2012-07-23, 09:19   Link #22
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
GMT's point is certainly true, but as one of those who strongly disapprove what Irisu did, I would say that's not all there is to it. Irisu lied. Not only to Houtarou, but also her friends, classmates, and even her senior. Houtarou didn't. .
From the online chats at the beginning and end of the arc, I'm pretty sure Hongou consented to stepping down from the movie production whether Irisu's motives were pure or not.

If you want to grasp straws at how genuine their characters are, then Houtarou isn't exactly above Irisu either, because he didn't manipulate the smoker just to get the anthologies - he did it because he was too lazy to bring them out himself. If you say Irisu lied to everyone because she thought Hongou's script was boring instead of actually worrying that it would fail, then by that same token Houtarou lied because he was too lazy to do the dirty work instead of actually wanting to help out his club members.

I get the feeling the only thing "different" about the two cases is who is on the receiving end of those lies.
Shadow5YA is offline  
Old 2012-07-23, 09:34   Link #23
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Whatever there is to say about Irisu's personality, you can hardly doubt her impressive leadership skills.

She's the type of person that would ruthlessly work towards a designated goal, making all the necessary decisions without a second thought. She's a pure pragmatist, a person who works solely for the sake of efficiency. Under the role of a leader, she is one that would resort to subtle deception to motivate those under her if necessary. She is willing to use all the tools at her disposal to achieve her objectives. As such, I believe that her strength as a leader comes from her ability to set people in motion.

When it comes to getting a job done, there is nobody more reliable than her.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-07-23, 13:25   Link #24
Hyper
Irregular Hunter
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 27
I got too many responds

Well, I want to clarify just one thing. I won't disagree with anyone criticizing Houtarou's blackmailing. Indeed he shouldn't do it. But I have no problem with overlooking it either. To me his blackmailing is grey, but Irisu's manipulating is black. The different is not what they did, but how they did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Houtarou lied because he was too lazy to do the dirty work instead of actually wanting to help out his club members.
What did he lied? I'm honestly not remember apart from "we're going to the library". Could you point it out? That can certainly change my idea. Don't get me wrong though. His reason for blackmailing is stupid. He should just ask the sempai to get it out for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Say what you will about Irisu, but she tends to help people out when folks ask her for help. Eru got a lot more help from Irisu in Episode 14 than she got from anybody else that she asked for help from in this recent arc...
Not because Eru execute her eyes only on Irisu?

I'm kidding of course.
Hyper is offline  
Old 2012-07-23, 13:44   Link #25
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post

Not because Eru execute her eyes only on Irisu?

I'm kidding of course.
After giving it some thought, I like your and Skane's idea. It could be the start of a beautiful yuri relationship.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-07-23, 23:27   Link #26
Arturia Polaris
Ponytail Sommelier
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Argentina
Irisu-samaaaaaa

You can whip your tame tiger (Oreki) all you want! In fact, DO IT!

Arturia
__________________
Arturia's Writing Den

My fanfiction works include:

Tari Tari: Past and Present, As the Gentle Breeze Blows
Little Busters: Bird's Song
Sword Art Online: Vanquishing of the Laughing Coffin

My own works include: Social Fact
Arturia Polaris is offline  
Old 2012-07-24, 07:48   Link #27
blakstealth
Cinderella Gang or Die
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
I found it pretty funny when Irisu explains to Chitanda how to get people into doing stuff for them. We can safely say that it works. lol
__________________
blakstealth is offline  
Old 2012-07-25, 04:17   Link #28
joeboygo
mechaii
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 34
It’s clear that the Empress tarot was intended to serve as the shorthand for Irisu’s character, just as Orecki, Eru, Mayaka and Satoshi are handily thumbnailed by their respective tarot symbols. So IMHO, any discussion of what makes Irisu’s character tick should start with whatever’s written in Tomoe’s tarot book about the Empress, whose page was painstakingly animated in detail by KyoAni.

We may quibble over the accuracy of my translation (let me know what you think about it), but here’s what the book says about the Empress/Irisu

母性愛 - bosei ai - motherly love or maternal instinct
豊穣な心 - houjou na kokoro - fertile spirit or attitude
感性 – kansei – sensitivity to others’ feelings
収穫 - shiyuukaku - harvest
女性的豊かさ - joseiteki yutakasa – the ideal of femininity
成熟した女性 - seijukushita josei – mature or “ripe” woman

I have a lot of thoughts about Irisu swirling inside my head, but for now I’ll limit my comments to my immediate impressions about the Empress tarot.

1. These attributes, individually or as a whole, do not convey any hint of malice or villainy. Actually, they create the opposite impression –success, wealth, productivity, benevolence.

2. Some people may have thought I invented the whole undercurrent of sexual tension and seduction during the Houtaro vs Irisu confrontasi. Actually all of that came from the last two entries above, which are pregnant with implied sexuality. However, there is no taint of the smutty or impure. The terms used connote a wholesome female sexuality.

3. I have my own thoughts about how these attributes should color any examination of Irisu’s actions or her motivation for carrying them out. But I’m curious to see if any of the attributes of the Empress tarot changed anybody’s initial impressions of Irisu or the things she did.
joeboygo is offline  
Old 2012-07-25, 10:18   Link #29
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
That's a very good and interesting post, joeboygo.

I think that "maternal instinct" and "harvest" are key to understanding what motivates Irisu.

I think that one of the key, defining traits of Irisu is a very strong sense of responsibility. She feels a "maternal instinct" towards any project that she believes is her responsibility to see through to fruition.

There's an old saying of "A mother will do anything to protect her child", and I think it is here where we see why Irisu is willing to take morally questionable acts to protect "her babies" (i.e. the projects that she feels are her responsibilities).

However, Irisu has "sensitivity to others' feelings" and hence she searches for win/win solutions. Or, at least, solutions that won't hurt people. This is why buttering people up is an approach that Irisu likes - Because she views it as harmless, and perhaps even helpful, should she manage to pull it off effectively.


And I agree with you that Irisu uses "feminine wiles" but in a seemingly subtle way meant to make the other guy feel like a million bucks without using anything all that explicit. This use of her femininity is perhaps in line with the "ideal of femininity" aspect of the Empress Tarot Card.

Irisu's key flaw is probably in underestimating the perceptiveness of others. As "an Empress" she kind of views herself as above it all, since she sees herself as somebody who's separate from the average person because of the responsibilities she has. This can create a bit of a blind spot for her, as we saw in her arc.

But even so, she can be extremely effective and smooth, and her strong sense of responsibility is one thing I like a lot about her. If Irisu was a Captain of a ship, she would never abandon her ship.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-07-26, 18:47   Link #30
joeboygo
mechaii
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's a very good and interesting post, joeboygo.

snip
You are being kind, but thank you.

I cannot freakin stop thinking about Irisu. I think the only way I’ll get her out of my head is to vent my thought traffic here.

I generally agree with your appraisal, so let me offer my own take as a supplement.

Yes, I too feel that each of the Empress’ attributes correlate to a specific facet of Irisu’s personality. But I also believe that each of the traits were carefully chosen and combined to deliver a general impression, so it should help to view each individual trait in relation to all the rest.

Individually:

1. Motherly love – As you pointed out, in the active sense, it is a large part of what drives the Empress to act. But it has a passive aspect as well. A known source of motherly love and support will tend to attract those in dire straits like a sheltered harbor in a storm. In other words, the Empress is someone people bat-signal when they are in a jam. Also, altruism is the essence of motherly love; the Empress acts not in her own self-interest but on behalf of those who seek her aid.
2. Fertile and/or productive spirit – the word “kokoro” usually means heart, mind, or spirit, but it can also mean center. In the first sense, it symbolizes the Empress’ power to positively motivate. In the latter sense, it also points to the power to eliminate discord, unify and find consensus.
3. Harvest – Ok, she’s rich, we get it. But I think it’s not that shallow. Harvest can also be understood in the sense of “reward.” The Empress delivers! Good things tend to happen when she’s involved.
4. Sensitivity – The Empress understands people.
5. Feminine ideal, woman in her prime – More on these later.

Viewed collectively, the general impression of the Empress I gather is that of somebody that: a) has earned the trust of her community as a person they can turn to when faced with obstacles they could not by themselves surmount; b) has the ability to mediate disputes and build coalitions between warring factions; c) can instantly connect with and draw out the very best from individuals; d) is very effective and reliable; and e) is not driven by selfishness or malice but an instinctive urge to assist those who come to her for help.

For now, I don’t want to clutter this post with “what happened to Hongou” speculation, but I think it’s pretty obvious where I’m headed with all this.

One more thing. There is a pervasive gender bias in the Empress’ powers. They all derive from an inherently feminine foundation. I believe this strongly implies that the Empress affects men and women differently. Again, this factors into my “what happened to Hongou” theory (among other things), but I don’t want to get into that just now.

Criticism is welcome, violent disagreement strongly encouraged.
joeboygo is offline  
Old 2012-07-26, 22:20   Link #31
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeboygo View Post
It’s clear that the Empress tarot was intended to serve as the shorthand for Irisu’s character, just as Orecki, Eru, Mayaka and Satoshi are handily thumbnailed by their respective tarot symbols. So IMHO, any discussion of what makes Irisu’s character tick should start with whatever’s written in Tomoe’s tarot book about the Empress, whose page was painstakingly animated in detail by KyoAni.
The only thing I would say is that keep in mind when Satoshi chose this symbol for her, he didn't know the details of what was going on. It may also have been chosen because of the word, which matches her nickname. I think it's clear that those qualities describe the image she is trying to give off (what she wants others to think of her, and perhaps the way she wants to think of herself), but Houtarou has already concluded (at that time) that it doesn't really match her, and that is reinforced by what happens next in the episode. So I don't think we can really conclude that that card is shorthand for her character. I think we supposed to come to the conclusion, as Houtarou did in that episode, that there's another side to the card that he couldn't see.

(Regardless of what you think of the reasons behind what happened with Hongou, I think it would be really difficult to apply only those positive qualities to describe the way things went down with Houtarou.)

At the end of the day, I think the intention of her character is decidedly "grey", and that card is only part of the story.
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline  
Old 2012-08-02, 16:17   Link #32
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I just finished reading Hyouka v2, as well as this:
Quote:
And she, in turn, smiles a motherly smile and gently gives him this advice: "Like newly planted grain or a newborn babe, a new life, a new relationship, a new creation is fragile. It requires patience and nurturing. It needs love and attention. Only this will bring it to fruition."
I think it fits her. Many ideas end up being just that. She's the one who'll take that idea, and see to it that the project reaches completion. She'll do it by cajolery more than by cracking the whip (that's more Mayaka's speed), but she'll do it. She'll make many hardships like "interpersonal conflicts" just... disappear, so people can focus on their jobs.

And that, in turn, is why people trust her. There were hints that her classmates didn't necessarily agree with her on everything, but they did trust that if anyone could lead them to success, it was her.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2012-08-14, 01:11   Link #33
joeboygo
mechaii
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 34
I do a lot of writing to earn a living, but I dream in secret of writing the next great literary blockbuster. My fascination with Irisu stems from envy: despite numerous attempts, I have yet to create a female character even half as complex and interesting.

After watching Episode 17, I’m convinced that Irisu is her creator’s favorite character as well. In Episode 10, as she sat alone with Houtaro at the teahouse, Irisu used the analogy of the swift runner to illustrate the notion that anybody blessed with a special ability is obliged not to waste it out of consideration for those who are not as naturally gifted. At the time I dismissed it as just another element in Irisu’s scheme of manipulation. My attitude was typical of an American libertarian – as long as you don’t hurt anybody then whatever you do with yourself is nobody’s business but your own. But as the events in Episode 17 demonstrate, the maxim that Irisu articulated at the teahouse is something that the author himself believes. The Japanese philosophy towards personal talent is very different: it’s a communal resource that must be applied for the collective benefit and not wasted for selfish purposes. The author meant for us to recognize what Irisu said to Houtaro at the teahouse as a guiding principle of personal conduct. What this tells me is that if the author plans to share more of his personal values with us, he will likely voice them through Irisu.
joeboygo is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
characters

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.