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Old 2012-07-24, 23:39   Link #1181
Miraluka
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But Chronozon isn't related to dragon in any way... is it?
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Old 2012-07-25, 00:14   Link #1182
Mr.Kyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Ever since I've learned about it, I had always wonder if it could have been Choronzon.
Well that pretty much settles it for me

Choronzon is basically a Horusian Lucifer, which is why from a Christian standpoint the 'thing' inside Touma can be mistaken as Lucifer. Considering Fiamma knows of Crowley's work and felt first-hand what was within Touma when it wanted to, ehem, peel his face off and fuck him in the eye socket, it's even more obvious why Aleister wanted him deader than dead. Very few people have the power, knowledge and experience combinedto truly comprehend what is sealed in Touma and what you can do with it. Already you can tell that when Fiamma and Aleister talk, Fiamma knows that from a Christian standpoint that he saw Motherfucking Lucifer the Light Bringer, but he feels that isn't really what it was. That it's an illusion to see it that way.

Let's take the juicy part:

Quote:
“…Is Aiwass that attractive an existence?” Fiamma asked. “An angel that cannot be explained by the Bible or theology is also the symbol of an element that is inside this world created by god and also outside of the hands of god. It is the beginning of the destruction of the fate established by god. …You did not want the Book of the Law. You wanted the strange angel that granted you the Book of the Law.”

Aleister did not confirm or deny that.

“Well, I was not originally supposed to appear at this stage,” said the magician who was said to be the worst in the history of magic. “Even if you do not understand the values of things, you saw a bit too deeply into that right hand. You caught a glimpse of what is inside of it, when it would have been best for you to only have recognized as a mere right hand that can negate supernatural powers. I simply cannot let this go. I was reluctant, but I had to make an appearance.”

“Of what is inside…?”

“And on top of that, it ended like this. He has now left my grasp. Thanks to that, I will have to take a bit of a ‘detour’. …I see. So a being such as myself may still be able to feel common anger.”

“…”

Fiamma’s eyebrows moved ever so slightly.

He was recalling whatever it was that had flowed out from within when he had severed that boy’s right arm.

“What was that?”

“I’m sure you know,” he responded as if spitting out the words. “Other than the fact that the format you were basing it on was much too old, what you were trying to do is very similar to my plan. They are both the idea to change the world by preparing a temple filled with strange power, drawing out the power of the right arm within that temple, and readjusting the thickness of the phase itself with that power. How is Academy City different from a small world that has sealed a certain type of power? You just need to look at your own actions from a different viewpoint. Just by doing that, you should be able to understand the true nature of that power. …If you had succeeded in doing that, you may have reached your goal before I did.”
Now two passages of the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleister's Plan
Peter Carroll's "Mass of Choronzon" is a ritual with the purpose of casting the energy of one's ego into the universe to effectuate an unknown desire. [...] Carroll himself states in the afore-mentioned book, however, that Choronzon is simply the name given to the obsessional side-effects of any deluded search for a false Holy Guardian Angel, or anything which the magician would mistake for his own profound genius itself.
Do I have to explain this to you? This is (indexverse) Aleister's life story and his entire plan since the beginning of the entire series. This is also a major part of what Fiamma tried to do but in the wrong format. It's all a ritual to alter the universe according to your ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Purpose of Imagine Breaker?
Thelemites believe that if [Choronzon] is met with proper preparation, then his function is to destroy the ego, which allows the adept to move beyond the Abyss of occult cosmology.
Hm, remember that whole "I had my illusions broken long ago" shtick we heard Aleister say? And the wild speculation about him and the previous Imagine Breaker breaking his illusions? He had his ego shattered, which allowed him to move beyond a certain way of thinking. JEEZ I WONDER WHAT THAT RESEMBLES HMMMMM.

With this, I'm thinking that, like I thought, Fiamma will end up saving everyone and become a Horusian Jesus after Aleister's plan fails and Choronzon is inadvertently set loose.

Or maybe I'm just in fanon mode.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
But Chronozon isn't related to dragon in any way... is it?
Well Volume 18 said that Dragon in Christianity represented a Fallen Angel. But we're not dealing in that format, now are we?
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Old 2012-07-25, 00:17   Link #1183
Miraluka
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Since Lucifer rebelled against God doesn't it makes it beyond God's control/territory, is it?
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Old 2012-07-25, 00:30   Link #1184
leukrota
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This Choronzon sounds quite like it, echoing the rest I'll buy this theory.
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Old 2012-07-25, 00:36   Link #1185
Kenju of the Right
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*Freddy from Scooby Doo voice* Nice job gang, we solved the mystery!

Nah just jokin
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in the scene when his weapon brutally hits the enemy’s body,
that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-

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Old 2012-07-25, 00:53   Link #1186
faiz blaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Do I have to explain this to you? This is (indexverse) Aleister's life story and his entire plan since the beginning of the entire series. This is also a major part of what Fiamma tried to do but in the wrong format. It's all a ritual to alter the universe according to your ego.
So, if I get this right, Aleister's plan is all about the actualization of a Reality Marble?

I can go with that!
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Old 2012-07-25, 01:10   Link #1187
Mr.Kyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right View Post
*Freddy from Scooby Doo voice* Nice job gang, we solved the mystery!
hey im the one called fred here don't steal my thunder
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"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2012-07-25, 01:12   Link #1188
Kenju of the Right
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Fine I'll be Shaggy then

Reality Marble would be quite awesome.

I Really should have though of that tho I did read a bit about Choronzon before never even thought of this connection
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He believes.
Even though he’s tired and one leg’s in the coffin, he believes.
He believes in his right fist,
in the path that his weapon creates,
in the scene when his weapon brutally hits the enemy’s body,
that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-


Last edited by Kenju of the Right; 2012-07-25 at 01:24.
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Old 2012-07-25, 06:45   Link #1189
Njo Esper
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Wow, i've never heard about Choronzon, but it sounds like it! Guess we'll know more about it in NT5 and why Touma has it sealed inside him.

Seriously, is amazing how Kamachi.exe put all of these Thelema things in the story...also, is so complex that i don't understand all of it.
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Old 2012-07-25, 09:32   Link #1190
Chaos2Frozen
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Wow, this is a first- A near unanimous support for a theory

Credit goes to shmaster, who first introduced me to the idea of [Choronzon] nearly one and a half years ago...
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Old 2012-07-25, 12:23   Link #1191
Saishy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Do I have to explain this to you? This is (indexverse) Aleister's life story and his entire plan since the beginning of the entire series. This is also a major part of what Fiamma tried to do but in the wrong format. [I][B]It's all a ritual to alter the universe according to your ego.
I think you got it wrong there, destroying your own ego allows you to transced from the chains of our mere universe into something else.

That something else might have powers to change reality, because it is a being not bound by reality's rules.
But that will be merely an acquired power, not the goal.
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Old 2012-07-25, 18:17   Link #1192
Njo Esper
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Ok, now i found some interesting texts about imagine breaker and what's inside of it. i'll copy past them because it will be hard/a pain if i try to explain with my words :

" My theory is that he's actually the prophet of the Aeon of Ma'at ( the goddess of truth, balance, order, law, morality, and justice), just as Crowley is the prophet of the Aeon of Horus. Chronozon is sealed in Imagine Breaker by the power of Babalon, who guides Thelemites past Chronozon so they aren't trapped by their own ego derived illusions of contentment. "

" Seals away the chaos of the universe.. I guess that could sure hold Choronzon. I only saw a portion of the speculation on this a long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw something about the demon in Touma becoming more powerful every time he negates something? If IB represents Ma'at, does that mean he's not actually negating, but sealing everything in himself?
Also, since I missed the talks, I speculated myself on why I thought it'd be Choronzon. It might just be me, but it makes sense in my head, so I'll just throw it out there. I've always wanted opinions on it anyway.
If I remember correctly, the Thelemic religion revolves around finding your true will/purpose in life by making it past the desires of your ego. Eventually you come to the abyss, in which Choronzon dwells there to trap a person in their delusions, and if they make it past Choronzon, they reach enlightenment.
It's known that after facing Touma, many of his enemies change their ways. He forces them to face their illusions (Hence his favorite line "I'll break that illusion of yours") and if the enemy manages to accept it in their fight/during his speech, and is able to move past it afterwards, they usually change their ways. To me, it's as if they just faced Choronzon and have been steered towards their "true will". "


Credit goes to "Anonymous"



Also, i read somewhere that "Baphomet" may be inside of IB instead of chorozon, but now i doubt it.
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Old 2012-07-25, 19:34   Link #1193
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
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Aeon of Ma'at, is it older or younger than Horus?

@Choronzon Theory Sounds good. Though I still believe that Touma is not the first IB wielder.
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Old 2012-07-25, 19:36   Link #1194
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Aeon of Ma'at, is it older or younger than Horus?
That's after Horus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
So IB is of Egyptian origin, huh?
As mentioned before, Aleister Crowley only use the names of the Egyptian Gods, his Aeons has nothing to do with them directly.
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Old 2012-07-25, 19:39   Link #1195
judasmartel
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@Choronzon Theory Sounds good. Though I still believe that Touma is not the first IB wielder.
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Old 2012-07-25, 21:48   Link #1196
leukrota
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You don't have to just believe. The previous IB user has already appeared in the novels.

EDIT: Please disregard the second statement, that was just a delusion.

Last edited by leukrota; 2012-07-26 at 15:54.
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Old 2012-07-25, 22:51   Link #1197
Birdway
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From Vol.5 epilogue, I think Aleister implies he somehow met somone who broke his illusions.
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Old 2012-07-25, 23:41   Link #1198
Mr.Kyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
You don't have to just believe. The previous IB user has already appeared in the novels.
what are you talking about
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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2012-07-26, 06:33   Link #1199
judasmartel
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Then who is it? Is he related to Touma? Is it Touya?
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Old 2012-07-26, 07:47   Link #1200
jalvin_billster1091
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There hasn't been any name given or mentioned much only the "There use to be another person that had IB" was it a relative we don't know yet, maybe maybe not
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