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Old 2012-07-24, 17:56   Link #1
Kairin
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Total Eclipse - Character Discussion - Yuuya Bridges

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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-24 at 18:29.
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Old 2012-07-26, 12:07   Link #2
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Ok, I'll start, from what I got Yuuya is showing a very fast adaptation to the TSF and displays a analytic pov, he's got talent.
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Old 2012-07-26, 13:24   Link #3
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I wouldn't say he's very quick to adapt since he failed horribly in the simulation. He acknowledges why he failed but when Yui shows up he tells her that it's only the machines fault.
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Old 2012-07-26, 13:54   Link #4
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I wouldn't say he's very quick to adapt since he failed horribly in the simulation. He acknowledges why he failed but when Yui shows up he tells her that it's only the machines fault.
Its very sensitive for him when he is used to thrusters power from USA, and he has only a number of days on the japanesse simulator at best, its just a different software for him. Yui's thing is another matter she pisses him off, and he won't admit that to her.
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Old 2012-07-26, 14:34   Link #5
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Yui pisses me off as well... XD, the betas should have done a quick job with her. I can understand the fellow. He does not seems to be an idiot, but he lose his composture when a "jap" subjects appears. So I hope he manages and fix his isues to be on top of piloting soon...

He becomes better (or best) at it?
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Old 2012-07-26, 15:07   Link #6
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Which Yuuya knew would require him getting used to the machine. Yet he doesn't even bother and continues to try and pilot it like an American TSF despite even his best friend telling him that he's doing it wrong and he should start actually trying to pilot it the way it was meant to be piloted.

That doesn't change that Yuuya messed up and Yui isn't an idiot and knows it was pilot error and not the machine that caused the disaster at the simulation which was far worse than even a novice could have done since Yuuya ended up getting surrounded within seconds and broke formation. However when she tries to give him advice he calls the machine apiece of shit and is adamant that he did everything right and doesn't want nor need her advice which makes him come off as a complete asshole to his superior officer.

Yui is just doing her job, Yuuya needs to start doing his.
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Old 2012-07-26, 20:31   Link #7
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Yui is just doing her job, Yuuya needs to start doing his.
Like a software beta tester, Yuuya's test pilot job is to criticise the hardware.


PS; I expect my beta software testers to atleast test the boundaries.

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Originally Posted by dmaxzero View Post
Yui pisses me off as well... XD, the betas should have done a quick job with her. I can understand the fellow. He does not seems to be an idiot, but he lose his composture when a "jap" subjects appears. So I hope he manages and fix his isues to be on top of piloting soon...

He becomes better (or best) at it?
Culturally, Yuuya is not Japanese and Yuuya doesn't have 100 percent Japanese race.

Yuuya is an American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans

"Americans, or American people, are the citizens of the United States of America. The country is home to people of different national origins. As a result, Americans do not equate their nationality with ethnicity, but with citizenship"

On Yuuya/Yui subject, Yuuyu *scanned* Yui's body from bottom to top during EP3's inital meeting.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-26 at 21:05.
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Old 2012-07-26, 22:09   Link #8
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Like a software beta tester, Yuuya's test pilot job is to criticise the hardware.


PS; I expect my beta software testers to atleast test the boundaries.
Well few would take calling a product as defective and junk as legitimate or constructive criticism. Yuuya isn't testing the boundaries of anything as he can barely operate it. Some fault lays in the design rigidity of operation but much more lays in his inability to want to adjust his style. He has a problem with the sensitivity of the controls but he tries to power his way through it which I think is apparent to all those around him including Yui.


Quote:
Culturally, Yuuya is not Japanese and Yuuya doesn't have 100 percent Japanese race.

Yuuya is an American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans

"Americans, or American people, are the citizens of the United States of America. The country is home to people of different national origins. As a result, Americans do not equate their nationality with ethnicity, but with citizenship"

On Yuuya/Yui subject, Yuuyu *scanned* Yui's body from bottom to top during EP3's inital meeting.
I think the show raising interesting question of identity. Yuuya clearly sees himself and wants others to see him as just American. Most people probably didn't though based on his looks. Remember his team thought of him and Yui as both Japanese until Vincent corrected them.

I think in America especially the question is complicated. It's very multicultural but it still has that image of what an "real" American looks like. If your white you can generally get away with claiming to be just an America but most others can never do that. They'd have to attract another moniker in order to distinguish themselves.

Someone like Yui heritage is almost certainly an important part of how she perceives the person and why she mostly likely emphasizes his. Yuuya, on the other hand, denies his heritage as defining who he is. I think that's an interesting dynamic. Many people do look to their families past in order to understand "themselves" better. Some feel that all that matters is the culture that they were brought out with. Others find it more of a choice of which culture they choose to identify themselves with and which not to. We can even say that many here have probably chosen in someway to identify with the Japanese culture even if they have neither a link based on heritage or being raised in. I don't know if there is one answer to it and many with probably have different views on what makes an American an American or a Japanese a Japanese.

I think to agree more with Yuuya as I understand his perspective fairly intimately. I just think he takes it a bit too far and interferes with ability to act rationally at times.
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Old 2012-07-26, 22:31   Link #9
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Originally Posted by dmaxzero View Post
Yui pisses me off as well... XD, the betas should have done a quick job with her. I can understand the fellow. He does not seems to be an idiot, but he lose his composture when a "jap" subjects appears. So I hope he manages and fix his isues to be on top of piloting soon...

He becomes better (or best) at it?
As far as I can see, Yui will be the person that fixes Yuuya's problem with the Japanese. So... if Yui does get killed early on, Yuuya will then continued to be an ass to any Japanese person. He will never become better.

"I think to agree more with Yuuya as I understand his perspective fairly intimately. I just think he takes it a bit too far and interferes with ability to act rationally at times."
Pretty much. One thing is that we have been viewing things from Yuuya's perspective. We don't fully see things in Yui's perspective and we did not even really get Yui's internal dialogue unlike Yuuya's.
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Old 2012-07-26, 23:10   Link #10
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Well few would take calling a product as defective and junk as legitimate or constructive criticism.
I guess you missed Apple's R&D approach for the iPod and iPhone. For Apple's iPod R&D, being just a MP3 player is not good enough.

Yuuya's criticism with Fubuki's engine issues are valid. "Defective and junk" statement is just a sting against Yui.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Yuuya isn't testing the boundaries of anything as he can barely operate it.
Yuuya tested Fubuki's engine performance with US's style TSF combat tactics and found it wanting i.e. it has issues with it's operational range.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Some fault lays in the design rigidity of operation but much more lays in his inability to want to adjust his style. He has a problem with the sensitivity of the controls but he tries to power his way through it which I think is apparent to all those around him including Yui.
The issue was the unbalance ratio between control's sensitivity vs weak engines.

Yuuya's criticism mirrors the real life Mitsubishi A6M Zero.

Fubuki would perform well with uprated engines e.g. able to support both US + Japanese style TSF combat i.e. Japanese style close range combat with US style speed i.e. closer to Gundam (GN-drive) or Macross's VF series (Macross Plus and above).

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-26 at 23:57.
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Old 2012-07-26, 23:40   Link #11
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I guess you missed Apple's R&D approach for the iPod and iPhone. For Apple's iPod R&D, being just a MP3 player is not good enough.

Yuuya's criticism with Fubuki's engine issues are valid. "Defective and junk" statement is just a sting against Yui.
There is a difference between saying something is not good enough while looking to improve it and dismissing the merits of something without first trying to understand how to operate it.

Quote:
Yuuya tested Fubuki's engine performance with US's style TSF combat tactics and found it wanting i.e. it has issues with it's operational range.
Ok, that's fines but that is going by the belief that those tactics are the measuring board. I.E if they don't measure up to American tactics they are inferior. I assume Yuuhi purpose there is not to tell them how superior his way of doing things are, a mistaken assumption I think he holds, but for them to find a way to fit him into their own system. That would, of course, necessitate him trying to fit into that system.


Quote:
The issue was the unbalance ratio between control's sensitivity vs weak engines.

Yuuya's criticism mirrors the real life Mitsubishi A6M Zero.

Fubuki would perform well with uprated engines e.g. able to support both US + Japanese style TSF combat i.e. closer to Gundam (GN-drive) or Macross's VF series (Macross Plus and above).
But there are also positives to the design as well more precise movements and response from the machine. I think you're already trapped in Yuuhi's mind set in that they need to become more like the American design instead of seeing how they can improve on their own design. It might ultimately entail them becoming more like the American design but you don't scrape your own design until you actually attempt to improve on its positives.
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Old 2012-07-27, 00:47   Link #12
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There is a difference between saying something is not good enough while looking to improve it and dismissing the merits of something without first trying to understand how to operate it.
Why did Japan get involved with the US when developing the next-gen Japanese TSF? Is Japan planning to demo/promote it's wares to the US?

The US (via Lockweed Mardin**) can develop it's own cutting edge TSF without Japan's help.

**Muv-Luv's Lockheed Martin.

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Ok, that's fines but that is going by the belief that those tactics are the measuring board. I.E if they don't measure up to American tactics they are inferior. I assume Yuuhi purpose there is not to tell them how superior his way of doing things are, a mistaken assumption I think he holds, but for them to find a way to fit him into their own system. That would, of course, necessitate him trying to fit into that system.
Again, it doesn't answer the Project Prominence's existance. The American tactics just highlighted the issues with the engine's operational range and it doesn't need be Amercian.

American's speed would also benefit melee combat i.e. greater speed has greater KE e.g. closer to Gundam 00 (high-speed melee bias Gundam with two GN-drives) or GNX-U02X Masurao (high-speed melee combat GNX with two GN-T drives).

By the way, the USN won the Pacific War.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
But there are also positives to the design as well more precise movements and response from the machine. I think you're already trapped in Yuuhi's mind set in that they need to become more like the American design instead of seeing how they can improve on their own design. It might ultimately entail them becoming more like the American design but you don't scrape your own design until you actually attempt to improve on its positives.
The problem was the unbalanced design. The next Japanese TSF update package would include uprated engines which supports Yuuya's view i.e. uprated engines would balance control vs engine power ratio.

The combined US+Japan combat style would also match Yuuya's mix-heritage.

Yuuya's and Yui's personal interactions are just added noise/spice.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-27 at 01:23.
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:31   Link #13
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Why did Japan get involved with the US when developing the next-gen Japanese TSF? Is Japan planning to demo/promote it's wares to the US?

The US (via Lockweed Mardin**) can develop it's own cutting edge TSF without Japan's help.

**Muv-Luv's Lockheed Martin.
Lockheed Martin is a defense contractor, one I've worked with extensively in the past. They might be a United States company but they are certainly not only under contract with the United States government or analogous with the United States Military. I assume they don't share their classified designs with other countries as that would be highly illegal. The only true U.S military involvement I see in the design of this TSF is the test pilots.


Quote:
Again, it doesn't answer the Project Prominence's existance. The American tactics just highlighted the issues with the engine's operational range and it doesn't need be Amercian.

American's speed would also benefit melee combat i.e. greater speed has greater KE e.g. closer to Gundam 00 (sword bias Gundam).

By the way, the USN won the Pacific War.
I doubt these issues weren't already know and probably one of the reasons from the projects existence. The question is of course how can they make their design better while still maintaining their own philosophy and preferences in controls.

Yes, thanks for the history lesson. I assume the statement is meant to imply because the USN defeated the Japanese Navy that their tactics and weaponry were in every way superior and could learn nothing from the Japanese tactics or weaponry. No other reasoning came into your equation like raw material availability, different sizes of population and industry, or anything else.


Quote:
The problem was the unbalance design i.e. upgrade the engines to balance the control issues. The next Japanese TSF update package would include uprated engines which supports Yuuya's view.

The combined US+Japan combat style would also match Yuuya's mix-heritage.

Yuuya's and Yui's personal interactions are just added noise/spice.
It might be a problem in need of correction but of course that a far cry from his dismissing the positives of the machine as I've said before. Yuuya is clearly unwilling to even begin to understand the machine he operates. Sure, enough from Yuuya point of view he's uses to driving a Hummer and running over everything but that doesn't mean a more compact and maneuverable vehicle can get the same job done differently.
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:40   Link #14
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@encia: The XFJ Plan (don't conflate the XFJ plan with Project PROMINENCE as a whole) was started because they wanted access to American technical expertise and technology by partnering with an American company, not because they wanted to throw out their entire design philosophy. For example even though they're upgrading the engines and integrating lessons learned from the Active Eagle, they're still keeping the whole supplementary mechanical aerodynamic control surfaces thing that Yuuya was having issues figuring out how to use, and which is also used on other non-Japanese TSFs like the Typhoon.

Therefore Yuuya's criticisms were valid within the constraints of what he's been trained to do in that the machine couldn't do what he wanted it to do, since it was designed for something else, but on the other hand he was also failing to understand that which it was designed for, which it would pull off adequately if he had understood what to do. Perhaps through the XFJ Plan Japan could make a TSF that, with greater thruster power, could pull what Yuuya wanted to do, but that had nothing to do with whether or not the Fubuki is a piece of defective junk, since he's trying to evaluate it entirely based on its capacity to do one thing instead of trying to explore the other options that allow it to maneuver just fine.

But this is getting away from the topic of Yuuya Bridges himself, I think. Bottom line, his attitude sucked, such that even though what he said had factual basis, he was missing the bigger picture.
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:46   Link #15
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Rick, are you sure you watched the episode? Because when he's away from Yui, Yuuya does recognise that he's just as resppnsible to fly the Fubuki right, and is honest enough to admit that he shares part of the blame and needs to get better, pronto.

At the same time, he's only had a few days at most with the Fubuki, versus his significantly higher stick time in the Eagle and Raptor. He's still instinctively flying like an American pilot.

Note that he does recognise that despite the underpowered engines and oversensitivity, the Fubuki is working exactly as intended. And that he intends to master it. Sadly, he can't keep himself from acting like an ass when Yui is around.
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:55   Link #16
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Rick, are you sure you watched the episode? Because when he's away from Yui, Yuuya does recognise that he's just as resppnsible to fly the Fubuki right, and is honest enough to admit that he shares part of the blame and needs to get better, pronto.

At the same time, he's only had a few days at most with the Fubuki, versus his significantly higher stick time in the Eagle and Raptor. He's still instinctively flying like an American pilot.

Note that he does recognise that despite the underpowered engines and oversensitivity, the Fubuki is working exactly as intended. And that he intends to master it. Sadly, he can't keep himself from acting like an ass when Yui is around.
Yes, I've watched the episode and while I agree he did admit to himself that the machine was operating correctly and does take some blame, I disagree that he has shown any willingness to change. In fact I think he has doubled down on not changing and not mastering it. It not just instinctively, in my opinion, its purposely. He's unwilling to fly it as designed even though he consciously recognizes the need to and is told numerous times he needs to change his style and understand the machine better by both his friend and Yui.
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:57   Link #17
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@encia: The XFJ Plan (don't conflate the XFJ plan with Project PROMINENCE as a whole)
What does the EP3 quote say?

The team is working on XFJ project with Boening and the Japanese stakeholders under the Project PROMINENCE umbrella.


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Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
was started because they wanted access to American technical expertise and technology by partnering with an American company, not because they wanted to throw out their entire design philosophy. For example even though they're upgrading the engines and integrating lessons learned from the Active Eagle, they're still keeping the whole supplementary mechanical aerodynamic control surfaces thing that Yuuya was having issues figuring out how to use, and which is also used on other non-Japanese TSFs like the Typhoon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP04, Time stamp: 12:54

What happened to him, anyway?

Japanese TDFs don't handle like other ones. We'll have to help him out until he gets used to it.
Unlikely the control surfaces would be the issue since the "other TSFs" doesn't handle like the Japanese TDFs.
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Old 2012-07-27, 02:18   Link #18
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Unlikely the control surfaces would be the issue since the "other TSFs" doesn't handle like the Japanese TDFs.
The control surfaces are pretty much the issue. See this part in the manga that takes place somewhere between the part where episode 4 ended and a certain event that the preview indicated will be happening next episode, Vincent explains to Yuuya about the Shiranui's supplementary control surfaces like the head antennae and the forearm sheaths to try and make him understand how the thing's meant to be handled, because he still isn't doing it right and trying to maneuver primarily on thruster power alone. Since the stuff that Yuuya's used to like the Strike Eagle and the Raptor don't do this stuff, they don't handle like the Japanese TSFs, which is what they were saying there.

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Old 2012-07-27, 02:21   Link #19
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Lockheed Martin is a defense contractor, one I've worked with extensively in the past. They might be a United States company but they are certainly not only under contract with the United States government or analogous with the United States Military. I assume they don't share their classified designs with other countries as that would be highly illegal. The only true U.S military involvement I see in the design of this TSF is the test pilots.
Well, Lockweed Mardin won with F-22 TSF project over its competitors.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I doubt these issues weren't already know and probably one of the reasons from the projects existence. The question is of course how can they make their design better while still maintaining their own philosophy and preferences in controls.

Yes, thanks for the history lesson. I assume the statement is meant to imply because the USN defeated the Japanese Navy that their tactics and weaponry were in every way superior and could learn nothing from the Japanese tactics or weaponry. No other reasoning came into your equation like raw material availability, different sizes of population and industry, or anything else.
If USN stayed with the Wildcats and didn't upgrade to Hellcats (and other improved US fighters), it might be a very-long war i.e. a machine that is uncompetitive.


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It might be a problem in need of correction but of course that a far cry from his dismissing the positives of the machine as I've said before. Yuuya is clearly unwilling to even begin to understand the machine he operates. Sure, enough from Yuuya point of view he's uses to driving a Hummer and running over everything but that doesn't mean a more compact and maneuverable vehicle can get the same job done differently.
Hummer would be a bad example since it's not equate with high speed maneuverability.

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Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
The control surfaces are pretty much exactly the issue.
The control surfaces may not be the issue since it depends on how the control OS handles the control surfaces i.e. the level of automation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
There's a part in the manga where Vincent explains to Yuuya about the Shiranui's supplementary control surfaces like the head antennae and the forearm sheaths to try and make him understand how the thing's meant to be handled, because he still isn't doing it right and trying to maneuver primarily on thrusters alone.
Looks like Shiranui has automation issues. Are you going to override Ms Sweden's statement?

Are you trying to be like Yuuya for Ms Sweden?

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-27 at 02:35.
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Old 2012-07-27, 02:25   Link #20
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Yes, I've watched the episode and while I agree he did admit to himself that the machine was operating correctly and does take some blame, I disagree that he has shown any willingness to change. In fact I think he has doubled down on not changing and not mastering it. It not just instinctively, in my opinion, its purposely. He's unwilling to fly it as designed even though he consciously recognizes the need to and is told numerous times he needs to change his style and understand the machine better by both his friend and Yui.
He's had all of what, two days with the Fubuki? And you're expecting that to override the habits of years?

Also note his comments prior to the anti-BETA exercise, where he makes the determination to master the Fubuki. He's trying, but he's got a few years of muscle memory and habits he needs to unlearn, which takes time.

That said I agree he has an attitude problem, and Yui was right to call him out on it. She didn't have to resort to race baiting, however.
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