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Old 2012-07-26, 11:02   Link #29821
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What you just mentioned are a series of fortuitous events not overused themes (as in the case of people keep falling to their death).
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Fortuitos events... though in umineko fortuitos events becomes an almost overused theme as there are too many of them...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So when a series of coincidences is not okay?
For me a coincidence is also not okay when I'm asked to figure out said long string of unprobable events.

Battler's grandad incidentally died after 6 years so he returns to the Ushiromiya and this incidentally it's the worst year in which he can return?

Fine, it's just bad luck and I'm not asked to guess why Battler returned... nor I really worry about what could have happened has Battler returned sooner.

The same can't be said for the whole improbable story of the 3 Beato, which I'm called to guess and which causes many headscratching because of the improbability of it all.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The unlikely background story of Umineko, however, is integral part of the exceptional setting this story is about. And there wouldn't even be a story in the first place, if that never happened.

It's a very big difference to consider.
I would be fine with the unlikely background... if part of the unlikely background wasn't included in the solution.

One matter is to know you're reading a story about vampires, another is to figure out that all the unexplained murders by shooting that are happening in an apparently normal world are because actually a character assumed dead was a vampire with the hobby of shooting people instead than biting them.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Actually, if you remember the guts bit of ep 7, that MAY have been too coincidental to be true.
That part debated the claimed complete innocence of Kinzo in the ploy to get rid of the Italians... but it didn't really explain how he and Beato were the only ones who survived. I mean... what did Kinzo do after persuading someone to start a fight?

Kidnapped Beato and hid with her waiting for everyone to conveniently kill each other?

Though Kinzo might have been smarter than that. First he took Beato away with an excuse, then, when a faction won, he returned back. If it's the Japanese he can easily side with them, if it's the Italian he can use Beato to side with them.
Then he can murder the unsuspecting faction poisoning their food or something.

The best for him would be for the Japanese to win as they would trust him easier and Beato would easily accept how he would kill them all... if it was the Italians they would find harder to trust him blindly and, if Beato where to suspect him of murdering them, she might not forgive him.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also to whomever is the editor of the umineko wiki, I don't remember this happening to Maria in episode 8...
It happens in Bern's game. George, Battler and Maria are still alive and together when Rudolf and Kyrie show up and shoot George and Maria.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And while we are at EP3, I'd like to propose something about Eva-Beato, which I think hasn't been brought up in recent discussions, but which I think could benefit an explanation. Who created Eva-Beato?
I've been wondering about Ep 3 and developed the following theory. In the beginning all the adults were accomplices of some sort. As in EP 2 probably they were forced to recognize Beato as the head and she offered them the gold in exchange for playing her little 'harmless' play (no, they likely didn't know who Yasu was but maybe they had enough info to recognize Yasu as Kinzo's heir).
In Ep 3 after all we see the siblings cooperating and they also hear of Rosa's meeting with Beato. It's possible that the retelling of the meeting with saw was edited to cut out the part in which the siblings suspected/realized that Beatrice 2 had a child.

Anyway they believe the servants aren't dead but report them to be dead (faking death isn't so easy as you've to breath and people might notice it... at the same way if they were all dead apart from Shannon Nanjo would be a lot more frightened and less prone to cooperate with her... so the easiest way is that the adult lied about the servants being dead and the servants were killed after the adults 'checked' on them).

However Eva doesn't like the idea of giving up the title of the Ushiromiya and stuck a bargain with Beato. From this moment on Eva is used by Beato as... well, Natsuhi was in Ep 5 so that she would be the one suspected and if Battler had been anything like Erika he would have staged a trial against her like Erika did, failing to figure out she was manipulated. Maybe he would even find proofs that she was in the garden when Rosa died like Natsuhi was in Hideyoshi's room when Hideyoshi 'died' (actually he sort of did as he found a flaw in Hideyoshi's testimoniance that Eva was with him).

EvaBeatice in short represent Yasu with Eva as accomplice.

Probably Eva, like Natsuhi in Ep 5, at the beginning didn't think/realize that Yasu would go on murder everyone and kept secret their allegiance first in hope to get the headship and later in fear of consequences.

... and likely, as Natsuhi, she didn't know the identity of the person with whom she stuck a bargain.

In the end Eva is originally solely guilty of cooperating with a murderer, before she went and killed Battler, whom she might have thought was her 'secret accomplice' as he would fit as Beato 2's son.
Actually Jessica too would fit... it's possible she killed both as she was unsure which one was the true 'Beato'... or maybe after she found Nanjo murdered though she made a mistake thinking Battler was the culprit (he was with her when Nanjo died) and that the culprit had to be Jessica and killed her.
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Old 2012-07-26, 11:09   Link #29822
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Quote:
Also on Eva Beatrice, any theories as to what this description of her was actually hinting at?

Meanwhile, has anyone discussed the importance of the fact that it was Evatrice who got rid of the cat guards and allowed Ange to get to the book? Or the fact that the best way for Beatrice to destroy Evatrice would have been to whisper in red to her that Eva was not the culprit?
It takes a genius to convince the world you're a monster when you've never harmed a soul.

Eva is basically innocent. That's one of the few things we really, actually know for sure.

Eva-trice helps Ange because that's what she symbolizes. No matter what Ange chooses, no matter what she does, Eva will always love her.
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Old 2012-07-26, 20:58   Link #29823
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Sorry if this off topic but does someone have a link to the interview where Ryukishi said that the Bernkastel from Higurashi is 100% the Bernkastel in Umineko.
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Old 2012-07-26, 21:16   Link #29824
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Sorry if this off topic but does someone have a link to the interview where Ryukishi said that the Bernkastel from Higurashi is 100% the Bernkastel in Umineko.
link here

It's taken out of context in my opinion. He says "he created Bernkastel in order to put a direct link between the two stories". I still think she started out as a gag for higurashi fans, and he developed her more for Umineko later. He doesn't say how the stories are linked in the interview.
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Old 2012-07-27, 05:16   Link #29825
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Scuse the question but was it ever revealed as to who killed Rosa and Maria in Banquet?

It's just that the order of Murders are rather awkward caused by their deaths.
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Old 2012-07-27, 05:27   Link #29826
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Bombs did it.

No seriously, a bomb kills off everyone at the end of the second day.
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Old 2012-07-27, 05:34   Link #29827
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Bombs did it.

No seriously, a bomb kills off everyone at the end of the second day.

If you're talking to me, I know.

Though I mean this:

Game 1, Legend of the Golden Witch:
6 die at the first Twilight.
From then on 7 stakings until the 9th Twilight.

Game 2, Turn of the Golden Witch:
6 die at the first Twilight.
From the on 7 stakings until the 9th Twilight.

Game 3: Banquet of the Golden Witch:
6 die at the first Twilight.
Rosa and Maria die without staking.
5 stakings until the 9th Twilight.

I'm highly curious as to why there were only 5 not 7.
I add in that the very stakes missing are Belphegor and Leviathan who are "Killed" by Kyrie and Rudolph.
In addition that Maria and Rosa were stated in red to be killed by different People.

I mean wouldn't you think that they were killed by someone else than who is doing the stakings?


For the experts:
Could it have been Kyrie and Rudolph with them killing Belphegor and Leviathan being used as symbolization of them breaking the staking cycle in addition with Kyrie for some reason changing her mind about leaving for the Guesthouse, her real reason being to kill Rosa and Maria with Rudolph?
As in the deaths of Maria and Rosa at the hands of Kyrie and Rudolph killed Leviathan and Belpehor/Stopped the order of staking as their deaths at the hands from someone else than the one doing the stakings caused the set to be unfinished.
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Old 2012-07-27, 05:37   Link #29828
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Oh, derp, for some reason I read 'Turn' instead of Banquet. I'm an idiot, I'm sorry.

There's the idea that Eva killed Rosa and Maria; it's abberant for loads of reasons, such as the fact that Yasu would never kill Maria so early. I'm of the mind that something went horribly wrong and off the rails. Who it was doesn't matter, though I'm pretty determined it's not Eva.
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Old 2012-07-27, 05:49   Link #29829
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh, derp, for some reason I read 'Turn' instead of Banquet. I'm an idiot, I'm sorry.

There's the idea that Eva killed Rosa and Maria; it's abberant for loads of reasons, such as the fact that Yasu would never kill Maria so early. I'm of the mind that something went horribly wrong and off the rails. Who it was doesn't matter, though I'm pretty determined it's not Eva.
It's no problem.


Well I thought about Eva as well, though wouldn't that contradict the red truth?
"Rosa and Maria were killed by other people"

I mean if it was Eva alone then why does it say "other People"?

And IMO it does matter as they are the sole ones breaking the staking order indicating that there could be at least 3 Killers potentially 4 or 5 in Banquet thus an important piece as to solving that event.

So basically from what I gather:
Someone is doing the stakings.
Going by what is said in red: "Other People" indicates multiple people killed Maria and Rosa who aren't doing the stakings.
I say it was Kyrie and Rudolph with the plan to kill Rosa and Maria being the reason they left so awkwardly.
Them killing Belphegor and Leviathian is a representation that they broke the cycle/order by killing the final stakes that are missing with the deaths of Maria and Rosa as their murders hindered the set to be completed.


Sound right enough?

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-07-27 at 06:40.
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Old 2012-07-27, 06:47   Link #29830
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I asked about something similar about that sentence before, (I wondered why it said "people", since it basically ment that Beato was denying her own existence), and Jan-poo answered it for me. I think this applies to your question as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the japanese is more ambiguous, there is no real mention of "people" instead the word "他殺" is used, which is just the opposite of suicide, literally "kill by other".
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Old 2012-07-27, 07:41   Link #29831
Kiltias
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Thanks for answering.

Though why no staking?
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Old 2012-07-27, 07:42   Link #29832
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Furthermore, that sentence is a bit ambiguous in English. It is a bit of stupidity of grammar, but the reason they say "people" is because of "Maria and Rosa" being plural. So instead of saying "maria was killed by another person and rosa was killed by another person" They said "they were killed by other people". The implication (clearer in context) is that they did not kill each-other, that they were killed by people other than them-self or the other. They could have said "they were killed by another person" it would have meant not suicide, but it could still be said that rosa could have killed maria or vice versa. It is really actually trying to hide the number of people who were there, not state there was more than one.

Well, that is just my interpretation of the grammar anyway.
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Old 2012-07-27, 07:56   Link #29833
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I think the most obvious solution would be that Eva and Rosa were arguing about the gold and at some point Eva pushed Rosa out of anger, unintentionally causing her to slip and impale herself on the fence. Then Maria was crying and accusing Eva of murdering her mother so she panicked and strangled her to keep her quiet.

Hideyoshi could have been asked to forge an alibi because Eva didn't want people to know that she was secretly discussing things with Rosa, as she didn't want to reveal that she'd found the gold. Then after things went wrong and they ended up dead, it became an alibi for the murder.

Obviously, since these murders weren't planned, no stakes were used. The other murders were more premeditated, hence the stakes.
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Old 2012-07-27, 08:22   Link #29834
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Simplest resolution to the Rosa/Maria thing is to change the red substantially to something like their deaths were a homicide. In English, "homicide" literally means one person killing another person, and it doesn't specify how many people killed them (as the original Japanese does; technically it's not saying more than one person didn't kill them, it's just saying someone other than them did the deed). Nor does it specify whether the killing was intentional, accidental, planned out, sudden, whatever. I'm assuming that's what Beatrice was getting at: "They're dead, but they didn't kill themselves or each other."
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Old 2012-07-27, 08:34   Link #29835
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"They're dead, but they didn't kill themselves or each other."
I agree, and the English can be read that way too.
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Old 2012-07-27, 08:48   Link #29836
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
And IMO it does matter as they are the sole ones breaking the staking order indicating that there could be at least 3 Killers potentially 4 or 5 in Banquet thus an important piece as to solving that event.

So basically from what I gather:
Someone is doing the stakings.
Going by what is said in red: "Other People" indicates multiple people killed Maria and Rosa who aren't doing the stakings.
I say it was Kyrie and Rudolph with the plan to kill Rosa and Maria being the reason they left so awkwardly.
Them killing Belphegor and Leviathian is a representation that they broke the cycle/order by killing the final stakes that are missing with the deaths of Maria and Rosa as their murders hindered the set to be completed.
It can be an interesting idea.
It tempt me to revise my previous idea of how things went in Ep 3.
So, NEW VERSION.

The siblings are contacted by Yasu (in disguise/by letter/by phone/do your pick) who is possibly recognized as Kinzo's heir and that asks their cooperation in a 'game' in exchange for the gold.
They are all apparently fine with this and even fake finding the corpses of the servants in front of the cousins. The only problem is Eva who manage to stuck another bargain with Yasu (possibly because she managed to find the gold) and to obtain headship. From this moment on though, Eva is Yasu's accomplice and moves according to her wishes (and likely she planned to use her to place on her the blame as it was done with Natsuhi in Ep 5).
Rosa discovers this but promises to keep her mouth shut.
Actually, when Eva goes to sleep, Rosa tells to Rudolf and/or Kyrie that Eva had found the gold and wants to become the new head, likely hoping to stuck a more advantageous bargain with him. However, as she reveals where the gold is Rudolf and Kyrie thinks it's better to get rid of her and blame Eva and so they kill her and little Maria.
They plan to do the same with Hideyoshi but Yasu joins back the game and ends up killing them.

Things goes on, more murders follow and Eva ends up believing Battler is Yasu's true identity so she shoots him. Later however, as she finds Nanjo's corpse she might end up thinking it's Jessica who was behind everything and killed her as well (Nanjo couldn't have been killed by Battler as he was with her and both Battler and Jessica could fit the profile of Beato 2's children).
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Old 2012-07-27, 15:10   Link #29837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Thanks for answering.

Though why no staking?
Because only Yasu or someone following her plan would stake people. If, for example, Eva killed Rosa over a fight with the gold and then killed Maria because she was a witness, why stake them? Eva probably can't even get to the Stakes.
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Old 2012-07-27, 17:03   Link #29838
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because only Yasu or someone following her plan would stake people. If, for example, Eva killed Rosa over a fight with the gold and then killed Maria because she was a witness, why stake them? Eva probably can't even get to the Stakes.
Precisely.

Though that leaves me with my final point.

Kyrie and Rudolph vs Belphegor and Leviathan.

While of course Eva makes sense, the main focus lies at their battle.
Unlike Eva the two are shown to have destroyed/killed the final stakes.
And as said:
The very reason the staking couldn't be completed with those very stakes, was that Maria and Rosa were killed.

Rosa and Marias Deaths = no Belphegor and Leviathan who were killed by Kyrie and Rudolph.

That's why I am saying what we saw (the fight) is the Illusionary illustration that the two had killed them by showing they are the ones who destroyed the order.

Quote:
They plan to do the same with Hideyoshi but Yasu joins back the game and ends up killing them.
However I kinda disagree with Hideyoshi.
Personally I think he followed them later at some point.Perhaps even saw it from his rooms window.
The two tried to take him out but he defended himself and managed to kill Rudolph.
However in turn he was killed by Kyrie and she by Yasu and the 3 got staked.
I remember there was something about Kyrie and Hideyoshi in that episode as well.

However, I call their roles ambigious.
As in:
I am sure they found out about Rosa and Eva.
Though I question if they were bad or good.
It's possible they suspected Rosa and Eva for the murder of the Servants.
If you think about it the Numbers left with George make sense.
07 - Stakings planned.
15 - Murders without Kinzo,Shannon and Kanon.
11 - People possible to stake without Kanon and Shannon but with Kinzo until the 9th Twilight.
29 -
Game 1 Deaths before 9th Twilight without Shannon and Kanon - 11
Game 2 Deaths before 9th Twilight without Shannon and Kanon - 11
Game 3 Deaths before 9th Twilight without Shannon and Kanon - 11
With Kinzo being dead before the games:
10-11-10
Kinzo wasn't a twilight victim in Game 2.
Thus 31.
Though with the missing stakings in Game 3.
29.
As they weren't from the Killer.

I'm not saying Kyrie knew of all games before.But much rather this being a trick to show she found out about what is supposed to happen.
She suspected Kinzo is dead remember?
In addition replace Shannon and Kanon with Rosa and Eva.
Thus Rudolph also suspected his own death as they intended to confront "them".
Basically, an indication that Kyrie knew what was up in all 3 games thus far per magical view.
Maria became a witness to the Rosas death or perhaps it was exactly the other way around.
Rosa killed her daughter ticking out again but in turn was killed by Kyrie and Rudolph thus strengthening their suspicion of Rosa and Eva.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-07-27 at 17:25.
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Old 2012-07-27, 18:01   Link #29839
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
However I kinda disagree with Hideyoshi.
Personally I think he followed them later at some point.Perhaps even saw it from his rooms window.
Unless Krauss and Natsuhi were in with Rudolf and Kirye about killing Hideyoshi they said Hideyoshi willingly went with Rudolf and Kirye to get some food.

The idea of going there was from Kirye as confirmed by the red and it's unlikely that Hideyoshi would go alone with Rudolf and Kirye if he were to suspect them of being killers. He would insist for... let's say Krauss to go with him.

Instead is pretty smart for Rudolf and Kirye (if they're the killers) to persuade Hideyoshi to go with them as he would be alone against 2 of them.

An alternative theory is that Yasu, knowing Rudolf and Kirye killed Maria and Rosa, killed them before they could harm Hideyoshi.
Hideyoshi however got scared and tried to... well, do something she might have seen as a treath... so she ended up shooting him too...

Which would match with the magic scene a lot...

or maybe Rudolf or Kirye weren't dead yet and managed to shoot him in attempt to shoot Yasu (it would sort of match as Rudolf tried to shoot Eva-Beatrice but one of the stakes took the bullet in her place... and in the magic scene we also have Hideyoshi being shoot by Kirye's gun).

Meanwhile Eva might suspect that actually it was Krauss and Natsuhi that killed everyone so she's the one doing the murdering.

However it wouldn't explain why Yasu killed Nanjo. Or George as it's sure Eva didn't kill Nanjo and I doubt she killed her son. Unless George committed suicide in front of Shannon and Shannon later placed a stake on him... though we still have the problem of why would Yasu kill Nanjo.

Ep 3 has a fundamental problem. The killing should have stopped with the discovery of the gold and yet it goes on. Ryukishi said Yasu would have stuck to her word of stopping the killing if the epitaph was solved but we know she, for sure, killed Nanjo.
So, either the epitaph wasn't solved and the magical scene depicting its solving represent something else or something happened (possibly murders not made by her) that forced her to continue in her plan of killing people.

I find hard that they believed the servants were really murdered if they weren't... (though Umineko plays a lot on the theme that, if it has a chance of happening, even if it's remote, it'll happen...) so I prefer to think that in the beginning the siblings were all accomplices and were believing the servants were faking death.

Though there's something interesting here.
Battler asked Ronove to say in red that Kirye, Hideyoshi and Rudolf were dead... but he refused with the excuse he wanted Beato to do it. However when Beato is called back the whole point is dropped. So one of them could still be alive... though I'm not sure how they would fake being staked.
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Old 2012-07-28, 01:08   Link #29840
Drifloon
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If the siblings were really accomplices, though, there'd be no point in that whole closed room setup with the servants in the first place. The only people it can fool ARE the siblings. Not only that, they didn't actually believe the servants were dead until Rosa and Maria died, remember?
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