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Old 2012-07-28, 12:37   Link #29841
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
If the siblings were really accomplices, though, there'd be no point in that whole closed room setup with the servants in the first place. The only people it can fool ARE the siblings. Not only that, they didn't actually believe the servants were dead until Rosa and Maria died, remember?
We know that the siblings were accomplices in other games. The one who has to be fooled from Yasu's point of view is Battler, not the siblings and we know that all the scenes that aren't witnessed by Battler can be not trustworthy.

Pick Ep 4. We know it's a complete fantasy to fool Battler. We also know that in Ep 6 everyone was an accomplice against Erika while in Ep 5 nearly everyone was an accomplice apart from Erika against Natsuhi.

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In Ep 3 I'm merely assuming the siblings and the servants were hired for faking a murder scene and reporting it to Battler. However, as soon as they had done, Yasu possibly murdered the unsuspecting servants. Now she should murder the siblings but something happened that caused her to change her plans so that Rosa and Maria's murder doesn't match the epitaph and probably wasn't even done by her.

Why should someone else murder Rosa and Maria?

Maria's murder, if not done by Rosa as the red proved, was likely done after Rosa's, otherwise she would have tried to stop the murder... also it would be stupid to try to murder her in front of her mother, not mentioning it's hard to find explanations for it.

Rosa's murder on the other side can be done for many other reasons, starting from an incident (someone pushed her in anger and she ended up on the fence and died) from killing her on purpose and attempt to set it up as an incident.

However Maria's murder can't be an incident.
Again Yasu likely would have let her for last and, considering how Maria is easy to deceive and how Yasu knows this well, she could have managed to trick her rather easily so it's unlikely she was killed by Yasu.

Another person on the other side might not have wanted to take the risk and might have chosen to kill Maria so that there were no witnesses.

Anyway all this seems not to be in Yasu's style as there aren't even the stakes.

This implies one of the murder was one of the siblings.
Why to kill Rosa though? What Eva really wanted was the headship (and enough gold to fix her echonomical problem) so I don't think she'll do so far as to think to murder her siblings to have the gold. On the other side Rosa can be pretty annoying so she could have pushed her in anger, not meaning to kill her.

However they had found an agreement previously. They had no reason to discuss about it such a short time after.

So it's more likely it was another sibling. This leaves us with Krauss or Rudolf (and their wives).
As it's implied that Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie who purposely isolated him from the others I would pick up Rudolf and Kyrie but, of course, I might be wrong.
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Old 2012-07-28, 14:59   Link #29842
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The thing is the elaborate closed room chain to fool Battler is effectively pointless because Battler never sees it, he's just told about it. For all he knows, it didn't ever actually happen. The adults could be accomplices in spinning the story, but in doing so they'd be constructing an incredibly elaborate lie that appears to serve no particular purpose because if Battler sees through it he'll just ultimately doubt everything.
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Old 2012-07-28, 18:57   Link #29843
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing is the elaborate closed room chain to fool Battler is effectively pointless because Battler never sees it, he's just told about it. For all he knows, it didn't ever actually happen. The adults could be accomplices in spinning the story, but in doing so they'd be constructing an incredibly elaborate lie that appears to serve no particular purpose because if Battler sees through it he'll just ultimately doubt everything.
It probably happened as in the end the servants were declared dead in red but I think it was probably constructed without the adults witnessing it (meaning they never checked if the servants were alive or dead) or with them faking to enter in it but believing the servants weren't really dead but just faking so that if Battler were to decide to personally investigate he would still find the servants where he'd been told and wouldn't doubt the adults of having been accomplices.

After all Beato confirmed the deaths and the way they were killed after PieceBattler was told by the adults about it.

Though, assuming the adults weren't accomplice in this the interesting part is that they could have doubted that the servants were really dead because Yasu failed to fake her death in a convincing manner... as it's actually not so easy to hide you're breathing.

Still... it's odd that, if they had doubts about it, they never went to personally check, expecially after finding Rosa and Maria's bodies. The servants could be the killers after all so making sure they're really dead could be a good plan...

Oh and an interesting note. Someone said Kyrie's corpse was moved in the anime. Well, it was moved in the manga as well.
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Old 2012-07-28, 19:38   Link #29844
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Well, it was moved in the manga as well.
Darn, you made me run to see if more of ep 3 had been translated
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Old 2012-07-29, 04:37   Link #29845
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Do you all think Yasu will ever be shown?
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Old 2012-07-29, 05:42   Link #29846
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Probably not. That was done for a reason.
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Old 2012-07-29, 06:03   Link #29847
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You know, I've been thinking. It is interesting that the first story written by Tohya "remembering" is one which is markedly different from Yasu's. The epitaph is solved, Maria dies early, someone likely dies in an accident, the stakings don't go to plan. I wonder if there is a message behind all that.
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Old 2012-07-29, 06:17   Link #29848
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Well, the idea that Yasu's plot didn't really go to plan in Prime does seem pretty likely. Everyone should be dead otherwise (or nobody should, if you go with the fake murders theory).
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Old 2012-07-29, 08:57   Link #29849
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How would Tohya even know about the underground tunnel and that the gold was there? And what about all the correct hints to solve the epitaph that are mentioned in EP3?

He probably added his own memories to the format used by Yasu.
When you consider that Eva in 1998 has the ring and that Tohya said he's been told by someone about Kuwadorian and the military base, it becomes extremely probable that the epitaph was solved in Rokkenjima Prime.

The real question is why after writing a story that was closer to the truth (at least Eva survives) he decided to write forgeries that progressively gets weirder and weirder. Or at least that's what we can speculate, we don't actually know how much the messages and the forgeries match with the stories we read.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:15   Link #29850
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I think that the episodes get weirder and stray from the original formula of EP1 to represent that whatever happened in Prime was getting far from what Yasu originally planned. Touya probably read Legend and Turn, and tried to make a story that followed the formula but with the premise that "Ushiromiya Eva should be the only survivor". Then he wrote it and noticed "it (Prime) wasn't like this at all", so he tried a different approach on the following forgeries.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:37   Link #29851
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by kevan3 View Post
Do you all think Yasu will ever be shown?
I'm pretty curious to see how Yasu will be handled in the manga.
So far the best we had was a black woman shape resembling shannon in Ep 8 (and possibly in 3&4).
I'm not sure a black shape can work in Ep 7... though the author might decide to draw the manga as any scene involving Yasu was seen through Yasu's eyes so there will be no need to show Yasu.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The real question is why after writing a story that was closer to the truth (at least Eva survives) he decided to write forgeries that progressively gets weirder and weirder. Or at least that's what we can speculate, we don't actually know how much the messages and the forgeries match with the stories we read.
Actually it's possible he decided he didn't want to discover the truth or that he didn't want others to figure he discovered/remembered the truth. After all Ange tried to contact him possibly after he wrote Banquet and he might have tried to keep her far writing something completely different.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:39   Link #29852
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The real question is why after writing a story that was closer to the truth (at least Eva survives) he decided to write forgeries that progressively gets weirder and weirder.
I like to think that just like Meta Battler he was originally hellbent on solving it, so tried to write the truth. Then he remembers Ange (or she becomes more important, I mean, she literally crashes into the end of three) and begins to wonder if writing the truth is the most important thing (ep 4 showed a lot of understanding, and was about realising Beatrice's intentions probably weren't as hateful as he thought) and then he begins to write forgeries to protect Ange. the only thing is what is up with eps five and six, which while make sense as a message from Ryu, less so from Tohya. The only thing I can think of is that he was complaining about everyone looking at the known facts and just condemning Eva, or thinking that they can just reason it all out.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:41   Link #29853
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I'm pretty curious to see how Yasu will be handled in the manga.
I'm pretty curious about the manga in general, as the last unknown and revelationary element to Umineko, I am awaiting its translation with both enthusiasm and sadness.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:51   Link #29854
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I like to think that just like Meta Battler he was originally hellbent on solving it, so tried to write the truth. Then he remembers Ange (or she becomes more important, I mean, she literally crashes into the end of three) and begins to wonder if writing the truth is the most important thing (ep 4 showed a lot of understanding, and was about realising Beatrice's intentions probably weren't as hateful as he thought) and then he begins to write forgeries to protect Ange. the only thing is what is up with eps five and six, which while make sense as a message from Ryu, less so from Tohya. The only thing I can think of is that he was complaining about everyone looking at the known facts and just condemning Eva, or thinking that they can just reason it all out.
There's also something interesting in Ep 3&4. The both of them talk about Battler's promise. Ep 3 have Shannon reporting it while Ep 4 have Beato asking Battler to remember what 'sin' he committed 6 years ago.
In both cases Battler's reaction wasn't the one Yasu wished for... through in Ep 3 we're told that Battler really had a crush on Shannon so he probably meant what he said when he said it.

As for Ep 5... well I've always wondered if the meta in which we have Battler refusing to take part to it is supposed to mean something in relation to Tohya... either he rejecting his 'Battler-side' and therefore trying to write a story that was completely different from the previous or he taking only a small role in writing it, leaving all the job to Ikuko.
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Old 2012-07-29, 09:53   Link #29855
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In the worst case scanario they will just make Yasu appear as a little white mannequin instead of a normal sized one until she switches over to being Shannon.
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Old 2012-07-29, 10:40   Link #29856
jjblue1
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In the worst case scanario they will just make Yasu appear as a little white mannequin instead of a normal sized one until she switches over to being Shannon.
Possible... through I'm really anxious to get at that part and I'm delighted at the fact we're almost there (Will just told Lion he/she's the dead cat).
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Old 2012-07-29, 11:00   Link #29857
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Gosh I am so excited I really hope Ryukushi finally just says this is her happy now. Or he will pull a huge WHAT!!!! and make Yasu look nothing like we imagined and has her wear the male servant clothes or something.
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Old 2012-07-29, 11:26   Link #29858
jjblue1
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Gosh I am so excited I really hope Ryukushi finally just says this is her happy now. Or he will pull a huge WHAT!!!! and make Yasu look nothing like we imagined and has her wear the male servant clothes or something.
I honestly still fear all the scenes with Yasu will be shown from Yasu's eyes so that we'll never see Yasu's face... or her/his hair... while it would be really nice if Yasu were to finally have 'a form'. But oh well, maybe I'm asking too much.
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Old 2012-07-29, 12:04   Link #29859
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I guess all we can do is hope right now. I am just imagining cute little Yasu and EHH I hope she appears. Also I wonder how it would be told from her eyes because I've never seen that done in a manga before.
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Old 2012-07-29, 12:38   Link #29860
jjblue1
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I guess all we can do is hope right now. I am just imagining cute little Yasu and EHH I hope she appears. Also I wonder how it would be told from her eyes because I've never seen that done in a manga before.
I've seen it here and there... if well done it could turn out well...
There's a sample of this in "Ushio to Tora". Basically Ushio ends up in the body of another person and see things through that person's eyes (though if you aren't familiar with the story it can get confusing to try to read the manga at this point as we're toward the end and the scenes of Ushio watching the world through another person's eyes are alternated with other scenes of the story...).

I know I saw it done other times but I just can't remember in which mangas...

It would be better than have Yasu as a black shape or completely faceless though the manga is pretty fond of black shapes so I very much expect to see Yasu represented as a maid with her face completely black.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 07:06.
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