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View Poll Results: Muv-Luv - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 11 22.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 24.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 38.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 6.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 6.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 2.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 2.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-28, 23:37   Link #1
Kairin
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Total Eclipse - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

Welcome to the discussion thread for Total Eclipse, Episode 5.

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Old 2012-07-29, 13:01   Link #2
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Spoiler for And the outcome is.... (Episode 5 anime only):


More Inia's flags. Yuuya pimps trough dimensions .
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-01 at 00:24. Reason: added better description to spoiler tags
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:21   Link #3
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Spoiler for Episode 5 anime only:

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-01 at 00:24. Reason: added better description to spoiler tags
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:27   Link #4
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She went all out against Yuuya, and he loos unsatisfied because he wanted a more flawless victory.
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:34   Link #5
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the whole thing reeked of" Just as planned" on yui's part.
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:34   Link #6
DezoPenguin
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...Okay, that was...disconcerting.

First off, I have to say that I agree with virtually everything Yuuya says right up to the 8:30 mark. But the entire episode really sets forth the difference in design philosophies in the two countries, and it runs a lot deeper than the difference between "ranged" versus "close combat" or "anti-BETA" versus "anti-TSF."

It's the difference between a culture of warriors and one of soldiers.

In which case, either it's by lucky accident or a case of raving genius on behalf of the writers that in this Alternate History setting, Imperial Japan still exists, because that's one of the transitions that got made in the post-Meiji era in Japanese military culture, and it seems like in this universe that didn't happen.

What Yuuya's talking about: the ridiculousness of designing a TSF that only veteran pilots can use efficiently, that's "soldier" thinking. Armies are not made up of warriors, but made up of soldiers. An individual warrior, an elite-trained fighter, often steeped in a centuries-old culture and philosophy, will almost certainly kick the ass of an individual soldier. Because being a soldier is not about individual combat. It's about being a member of an army/brigade/platoon/squad/whatever. It's about fighting in a group, about being a disciplined member of a fighting force. A soldier culture will win on the battlefield in an army-versus-army combat virtually every time, unless there's a huge numerical/technological/tactical advantage to the other side.

(Witness ye: Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt. While the English ended up losing the Hundred Years' War due to the fact that victory in war is not at all solely about victory on the battlefield, these historical examples show the difference between an England transitioning to a culture of soldiers training for army battle, and a France where the ruling social class of warrior knights had their sociopolitical ethos embedded in their military strategy.)

The Japanese TSFs are being designed for a warrior culture. They're not, fundamentally, interested in making sure that Mook Eishi #237 can best combat the BETA. They're interested in making sure that Imperial Guard Eishi #2 can be a superhuman fighting machine. They're maximizing the combat ability of the elite warrior aces, not in making sure the troops on the ground can function better. They'll kill off many troops and trainees to make Yui better able to survive.

(Yep, Yui, the design philosophy of your unit's TSFs was designed to maximize your chances of survival at the expense of Izumi and Shimako and everyone else's. Just sayin'. )

For example...exactly how many Takemikazuchi's even exist? Can you think of any real-world military machinery (excepting naval vessels, of course, which don't operate on anything like the same kind of principles) where the government orders a certain minimal number of top-level machines, then reserves them for a "special" unit determined by social class? There are, of course, cost/performance analyses (can we buy X of these planes versus Y of those, and which will more greatly increase our overall military ability?) and obviously older weaponry is rotated to reserve or training units while being replaced by newer, more advanced equipment among frontline combat units.

So that quite frankly, whenever Yuuya and Yui are clashing, it's not really over TSF performance issues, it runs right down to the roots of how each of their respective cultures treats the underlying concept of battle, not just in terms of TSFs or of BETA or whatever, but right down to the very roots of any kind of combat. It's no wonder they can't find common ground, even without their respective personal issues clogging things up.

(It also shows that everything Yuuya says about the Type-94 Second's performance and what Yui says about the test pilot trying to put his stamp on the project, are both completely accurate.)

Yuuya actually being an ace-quality pilot, in this episode we see him start to catch on to the Shiranui's abilities and be able to use them to their highest levels.

(In fairness, I have to note that, from everything I've read here at AS, the Japanese philosophy of TSF design might actually be better-suited for one particular aspect of anti-BETA combat: attacks on BETA hives, where AFAIK anyone less than a top-class elite is going to get waxed in seconds anyway, so the most viable strategy is to maximize the performance of the TSFs that have a chance of survival. Just pointing out that I'm not oversimplifying this into "America good, Japan bad.")
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:50   Link #7
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I don't know what the timeframe is they're working in, but I guess she felt she had to add some duress to 'awaken' Yuya to his potential.

I guess the only real question mark is why he's the only one being primed for what I presume will be the new TSF they're going to use to take Japan back with. I mean, what's the point of the other three members of Argos, then?

Also, I imagine every military force has a 'special' class. Delta Force and the SEALS for the US, as an example. That's nothing new.

Anyways, based off the pacing, and if this is really only 12 episodes long, it appears we're not going to return to the real battlefield until the climax (last 2-3 episodes presumably), where they presumably go and (attempt to?) retake Japan. I'm a little disappointed, after all the action and angst of the first two episodes.

I guess it's turning out to be more Top Gun, and less...I don't know...Platoon. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that; I was just hoping for more actual BETA fighting.

Edit: The soldier vs warrior thinking outlined above is outdated, imo, for the real, modern world. That said, if I existed in this fictitious Muv-Luv universe, where you've got hordes of rampaging aliens that are nice enough to zerg en mass everywhere they go, the last thing I'd be doing is concentrating on small, elite forces, and the very idea of putting people into what I can only presume are hugely expensive mecha-regardless of their design philosophy-to fight off these zergs, would make me cry at the absurdity when looked at through a cost-risk-reward lens. But, as a piece of fiction, it has the benefit of not having to make any sense, and just needs to entertain, and it's doing just fine in that department, so /shrug.
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Old 2012-07-29, 13:58   Link #8
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Wow, DenzoPenguin. What a great, well-thought analysis. Rep 4 U!
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:12   Link #9
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Nekomimi Maid Chobi ( ^ω^ )ベロベロ BETA weren't needed after all!
I'm going to go and name my new Memento Mismagius after her.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:15   Link #10
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Originally Posted by creb View Post
I don't know what the timeframe is they're working in, but I guess she felt she had to add some duress to 'awaken' Yuya to his potential.

I guess the only real question mark is why he's the only one being primed for what I presume will be the new TSF they're going to use to take Japan back with. I mean, what's the point of the other three members of Argos, then?

Also, I imagine every military force has a 'special' class. Delta Force and the SEALS for the US, as an example. That's nothing new.

Anyways, based off the pacing, and if this is really only 12 episodes long, it appears we're not going to return to the real battlefield until the climax (last 2-3 episodes presumably), where they presumably go and (attempt to?) retake Japan. I'm a little disappointed, after all the action and angst of the first two episodes.

I guess it's turning out to be more Top Gun, and less...I don't know...Platoon. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that; I was just hoping for more actual BETA fighting.

Edit: The soldier vs warrior thinking outlined above is outdated, imo, for the real, modern world. That said, if I existed in this fictitious Muv-Luv universe, where you've got hordes of rampaging aliens that are nice enough to zerg en mass everywhere they go, the last thing I'd be doing is concentrating on small, elite forces, and the very idea of putting people into what I can only presume are hugely expensive mecha-regardless of their design philosophy-to fight off these zergs, would make me cry at the absurdity when looked at through a cost-risk-reward lens. But, as a piece of fiction, it has the benefit of not having to make any sense, and just needs to entertain, and it's doing just fine in that department, so /shrug.
I believe its 24 episodes with OVAs or something else release as well.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:18   Link #11
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I believe its 24 episodes with OVAs or something else release as well.
If it is 24 episodes, I feel a lot better about the pacing then.

I know ANN is pretty much always wrong, so here's hoping.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:22   Link #12
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I'm hoping he does

What was that in the preview for next week? Yuuya and Yui taking shelter from rain somewhere? Time for Top Gun to raise some flags!
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:26   Link #13
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what yui did to tarisa was reakless
cant wait for the next ep get the feeling its gonna have cryska development ... and rain

soldier vs warrior more like stuburn vs stuburn
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:33   Link #14
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cant wait for the next ep get the feeling its gonna have cryska development and rain
Spoiler for bligatory beach ep.:



Anyway, I have only skimmed the raw at the final battle and have not gotten to see the middle translations. But on the face of the final battle, Yuuya won this fair and square. You don't have a shadow over your eyes if your not disappointed in someway. So I will not assume she threw the fight away.

Edit: It does not mean Yuuya did not take anything away. I think his epiphany about the mecha has renewed his drive to probably improve himself overall. In the end, I think it will lead his expansion to the type of all round hero we will expect of him.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:36   Link #15
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Still having problems with the TSF.
Bridges always seems to be on the bad side of Takamura.
That guy also has bad luck of running into Inia & Cryska all the time...
Seems like Takamura thinks highly of Yuuya just not to his face.
The action parts were nice to watch, as usual.
Have a feeling they are doing too much practicing...
Yuuya vs Takamura was really nice to see.
Guess it was all for his sake to become one with his machine. It worked too.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:36   Link #16
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Originally Posted by YF19EX View Post

Anyway, I have only skimmed the raw at the final battle and have not gotten to see the middle translations. But on the face of the final battle, Yuuya won this fair and square. You don't have a shadow over your eyes if your not disappointed in someway. So I will not assume she threw the fight away.
he would have lost if he didnt figure out that move right when he did
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:42   Link #17
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Anyway, I have only skimmed the raw at the final battle and have not gotten to see the middle translations. But on the face of the final battle, Yuuya won this fair and square. You don't have a shadow over your eyes if your not disappointed in someway. So I will not assume she threw the fight away.
Yuuya said that yui is going easy on him. He even admits that she could have won in one strike any time during the match. Just like she did to the other 3 argos who she obviously took out without much effort so she can"teach" yuuya.
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Old 2012-07-29, 14:45   Link #18
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The fixation on Yuuya vs Yui seems to miss the entire point. It's not about who's better than who. It's about what Yui needs to do, in order for Yuuya to be ready when it's go time. It's not like the show has been particularly subtle about that. The ending of this episode alone doesn't make it much more hamfisted.

But, I know, I know, Yuuya vs Yui is just such a more dramatic way of viewing things. (It's like I learned nothing from the now non-existent Claymore forums).

Edit: I don't know how many times I'm going to continue misspelling their names. Why in the world did they both have to start with 'Y'?
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Old 2012-07-29, 15:09   Link #19
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I think that one mistake made in the whole testing process was that it was apparently not made clear to the test pilot, Yuuya , that he was testing a spec ops mechs for elite pilots. Not for your run of the mill Eshi. But hey, unclear communication is one of the most frequently used plot devices out there. Certainly , Yui was being very offensive, and so to was Yuuya.

But still, had it been made clear to Yuuya that he was testing a special machine for a warrior and not a soldier, quite a lot of his points would never have been valid. They are perfectly true, if you are referring to the red shirts of the world. If you are referring to the Yui of the world though, they are insultingly false.
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Old 2012-07-29, 15:12   Link #20
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Liked this episode a lot, although the whole JIVES program confuses me. They can apparently create matter out of nothing? I mean, one of the BETA knocks Yuuya over. Doesn't compute.

Funny how Chobi is basically a drunken ball of rage most of the time, and that her breasts seem to change size . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
...Okay, that was...disconcerting.

First off, I have to say that I agree with virtually everything Yuuya says right up to the 8:30 mark. But the entire episode really sets forth the difference in design philosophies in the two countries, and it runs a lot deeper than the difference between "ranged" versus "close combat" or "anti-BETA" versus "anti-TSF."

It's the difference between a culture of warriors and one of soldiers.
Great post Dezo! This whole Yui v. Yuuya interaction comes across to me as a replay of the differing American and Japanese approaches during WW2 to aircraft design and training, as well as the differing "warfighter" cultures of the two countries. To oversimplify: The Americans placed a premium on power over maneuverability, firepower and armor over weight, and pulled its best pilots off the line to train novices. The Japanese favored maneuverability over power, weight over protection and firepower, and kept their top pilots on the front line until they died.

That's basically what we've seen here. Remember that the only instructor we saw training Yui and her classmates had suffered an eye injury, probably making him unfit for the front lines. Thus, even though they had been training for two years, in their first engagement against the BETA they had no idea what they were doing and were obliterated, much the same as happened to novice Japanese pilots post-1943.

Yui also constantly focuses on the maneuverability of the TSF, while Yuuya focuses on its lack of power, reflecting their respective countries WW2-era doctrines. And I'm sure it's in the LN or somewhere else, but the anime certainly makes it look like American TSFs are more heavily armored than the Japanese.

Also interesting to note that Yui lists the "fighting spirit" (bushido) of the Japanese soldier as positive, when in reality it turned out to be a negative for the Japanese during WW2. The IJA's faith in the "spiritual superiority" of the Japanese soldier led the IJA to continually underestimate its enemies and fail to learn from its mistakes. For example, after losing decisively to the Soviets in 1939 border wars, due in large part to the IJA's underestimation of Soviet abilities at maneuver warfare and combined arms, the IJA failed to learn any lessons or adopt new strategies, relying instead on their continued (mistaken) belief in the spiritual superiority of the individual Japanese "warrior."
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