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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 42
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 1 4.00%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 6 24.00%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 6 24.00%
7 out of 10: Good... 8 32.00%
6 out of 10: Average... 0 0%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 2 8.00%
4 out of 10: Poor... 1 4.00%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 4.00%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 0 0%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-30, 03:50   Link #41
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Revolutionist, Did you live during the Cold War era?

If you did you should be familiar with the doctrine called Mutual Assured Destruction. One would say it nuclear weapons are deterrents. But what if the other side in a fit of insanity launch its nuclear weapons? The other side would naturally retaliate as to deny the other side victory.
ReddyRedWolf, did you pay attention during your Foreign Affairs class? What you've described the strawman's version of the MAD doctrine that severely misunderstands the prisoner's dilemma and every war game scenario ever run on it.
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Old 2012-07-30, 04:16   Link #42
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
ReddyRedWolf, did you pay attention during your Foreign Affairs class? What you've described the strawman's version of the MAD doctrine that severely misunderstands the prisoner's dilemma and every war game scenario ever run on it.
What have you not been paying attention? Ezelcant wants Earth Sphere and Vegans to mutually destroy each other so his superior enlightened race would rise from the ashes.

So no the prisoners dilemma no longer applies.
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Old 2012-07-30, 04:20   Link #43
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
What have you not been paying attention? Ezelcant wants Earth Sphere and Vegans to mutually destroy each other so his superior enlightened race would rise from the ashes.

So no the prisoners dilemma no longer applies.
It does, though. By simplifying MAD down to that level, you're misrepresenting the Cold War as genocidal hatred and sheer stupidity, which isn't what it was. You're also either deliberately misunderstanding or dumbing down Ezelcant's goal. If he wanted MAD as you're representing it and claim, then there won't be a "superior enlightened race" to raise from the ashes. There won't be much of an Eden left to inhabit, either.
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Old 2012-07-30, 04:33   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The fact that you say Fram, Zeheart and Dean are fighting for Ezelcant's "cover story" which is to murder Earthnoids indiscriminately just destroys any claims of objectivity you might make. I'm not gonna bother dissecting your arguments because pretty much everything you said is extremely biased and just plain wrong. It's sad that some of you won't get it even if the show smacks you over the head with it.
Go re-watch the first episode of Kio's arc (episode 29 btw) where Ezelcant's hologram gives a speech and declares war on Earth and tell me those Vagan soldiers carrying out his murderous orders at that moment, including people like Zeheart loyally leading the first invasion on civilian targets with Kio and his friends going to a damn town festival just below him, is somehow not really supporting Ezelcant's cover story of carrying out divine judgement on the Earthnoids (eg killing them because Earthnoids don't deserve Earth whereas the Vagans do), and that really deep down their action is actually seeking peaceful resolution which you claim. Also how is Fram denying Kio's offer to lay down arms and talk showing her that she too is seeking peaceful co-existence. Really, please tell us why to judge the Vagans, or at least those specific characters, on these actions is wrong, I'm waiting to be enlightened.

The fact is these people aren't seeking peaceful co-existence - their action is evidence that they merely want peace for THEIR OWN KIND and seek out revenge for the fallen, just like Flit, except at least Flit is being honest about it, whereas you bought the pretty words of all the Vagan characters on screen hook line and sinker.

You keep judging Flit on mere words but let the Vagans off the hook with their actions, that itself is already not being objective. Even if you claim they are doing it for the sake of seeking peace is actually true is totally contradictory to their actions (how do you claim to seek peaceful co-existence yet murdering innocent civilians time and time again and still claim righteousness? It's pure hypocrisy). I really don't know how you do it. The fact that you are dodging the question now just shows it is you who are bias and not being objective.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-07-30 at 04:47.
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Old 2012-07-30, 04:51   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
It does, though. By simplifying MAD down to that level, you're misrepresenting the Cold War as genocidal hatred and sheer stupidity, which isn't what it was. You're also either deliberately misunderstanding or dumbing down Ezelcant's goal. If he wanted MAD as you're representing it and claim, then there won't be a "superior enlightened race" to raise from the ashes. There won't be much of an Eden left to inhabit, either.
Where did you get I said the Cold War was about hatred? I am applying the principles of MAD in Gundam AGE. In the characterization of Flit he is no longer a savior but an avenger. If he can't protect those who are under his protection he will sure avenge them.

In the logic of MAD the second strike or retaliation is to assure the enemy does not win or at least be in a position to dominate.

The Vegans are on a path of genocide, as far as they know, invading Earth itself and using a WMD. Cornering the Federation that they have no choice but take the gloves off and consider what Flit has been saying all this time.

Yes the Federation has been reluctant to open the Pandora's Box. As nobody might come out alive this time unlike the Colony Nation Wars.

Also Ezelcant is aiming for the Last Man. So his goal is to make humanity so horrified of war they'll never dream of it again. Except Earth Sphere already had peace after a great war. He is lashing out on the world for taking his son.
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Old 2012-07-30, 05:09   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Where did you get I said the Cold War was about hatred? I am applying the principles of MAD in Gundam AGE. In the characterization of Flit he is no longer a savior but an avenger. If he can't protect those who are under his protection he will sure avenge them.
The moment you applied it to Gundam AGE, specifically Flit, you connected MAD and by extension the Cold War that invented the doctrine, with genocidal hatred. Flit isn't an avenger, he's a weak old man who let his early life twist him into someone who preaches what he was the victim of.

Quote:
In the logic of MAD the second strike or retaliation is to assure the enemy does not win or at least be in a position to dominate.
No... MAD is when both A and B have a nuclear arsenal with second strike capability, thus they can both launch more than one wave of nukes and launch a second strike regardless of how hard the first one hit. The reason it's mutually-assured destruction is simply because once the first wave is launched, the other guy is going to respond to an attack like an attack is supposed to be responded to. Stopping the first aggressor from winning isn't even part of the program at that point. Even one nuclear bombing is enough to invoke MAD since you simply can't control the variables. Even then, I don't see the Vagan using Colony Destroyers and those plasma things indiscriminately as MAD would dictate.

Quote:
The Vegans are on a path of genocide, as far as they know, invading Earth itself and using a WMD. Cornering the Federation that they have no choice but take the gloves off and consider what Flit has been saying all this time.
I'm not saying the Federation is wrong to defend itself anymore than I am that the Vagan are right to want revenge for the outcome of the Mars Colonization Plan.

Quote:
Yes the Federation has been reluctant to open the Pandora's Box. As nobody might come out alive this time unlike the Colony Nation Wars.
And that alone is what's stopping MAD from applying here. The very reason the Cold War never erupted was because both sides were reasonable enough to know that if they opened up Pandora's Box, there was no way to close it back up again. The Colony Wars' outcome was no different from a non-proliferation treaty actually being seen through. If you really wanted your application of MAD and the Cold War to be accurate, the Colony Wars are a better option than current events. The current events of Gundam AGE are what I like to call S^3: sheer synchronized stupidity. Not one party is blameless, and I'm not taking sides with any of them.

That being said, I just want to enjoy my mecha porn without having to see comparisons to the Nazis and criticisms amounting to an intellectual depth of "worst Gundam show ever because it sucks" by people who apparently hate the show so much they waited until the episode count hit the 40s to say it every time I log onto these forums.
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Old 2012-07-30, 06:23   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
The moment you applied it to Gundam AGE, specifically Flit, you connected MAD and by extension the Cold War that invented the doctrine, with genocidal hatred. Flit isn't an avenger, he's a weak old man who let his early life twist him into someone who preaches what he was the victim of.
Flit hasn't killed yet in cold blood.. He spared Decil. He couldn't pull the trigger on Gerra Zoi. Decil became irrelevant when he came back. Flit tried to take a Vegan alive as a prisoner but he committed suicide.

After all these years there is little choice left. Except if the Vagans can be convinced to surrender.

Assemu tries to tell Zeheart his boss is insane but he doesn't have proof.

Kio tries the Understanding route by force but doesn't realize understanding does not mean one agrees to somebody else's opinion.



Quote:
No... MAD is when both A and B have a nuclear arsenal with second strike capability, thus they can both launch more than one wave of nukes and launch a second strike regardless of how hard the first one hit. The reason it's mutually-assured destruction is simply because once the first wave is launched, the other guy is going to respond to an attack like an attack is supposed to be responded to. Stopping the first aggressor from winning isn't even part of the program at that point. Even one nuclear bombing is enough to invoke MAD since you simply can't control the variables. Even then, I don't see the Vagan using Colony Destroyers and those plasma things indiscriminately as MAD would dictate.
Vegan's have been using Colony destroyers since the first arc attacking Nora. They had them in stock in Downes in the second arc. They've been firing the damn things at the Federation fleet.

What do you they are not using them?!

Quote:
I'm not saying the Federation is wrong to defend itself anymore than I am that the Vagan are right to want revenge for the outcome of the Mars Colonization Plan.
The ones actually responsible is dead long before they came back.


[quote]
And that alone is what's stopping MAD from applying here. The very reason the Cold War never erupted was because both sides were reasonable enough to know that if they opened up Pandora's Box, there was no way to close it back up again. The Colony Wars' outcome was no different from a non-proliferation treaty actually being seen through. If you really wanted your application of MAD and the Cold War to be accurate, the Colony Wars are a better option than current events. The current events of Gundam AGE are what I like to call S^3: sheer synchronized stupidity. Not one party is blameless, and I'm not taking sides with any of them.
[quote]

The Federation is the only one reasonable or should I say chicken to use WMD until the recent arc.

It took 70 years to clean off that idealism made in a hundred years of peace.

Quote:
That being said, I just want to enjoy my mecha porn without having to see comparisons to the Nazis and criticisms amounting to an intellectual depth of "worst Gundam show ever because it sucks" by people who apparently hate the show so much they waited until the episode count hit the 40s to say it every time I log onto these forums.
Then don't come here to discuss.
Nobody is forcing you.
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:39   Link #48
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We are lucky that Japan doesnt stop anime broadcasts for Olympics like most countries...... For me anime>Olympics.
thats pretty sad that u love anime more than ur country
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:56   Link #49
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I wish Girard/Reina would live through the series. Killing a side character after some episodes is not a good idea at this point.
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Old 2012-07-30, 14:59   Link #50
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Go re-watch the first episode of Kio's arc (episode 29 btw) where Ezelcant's hologram gives a speech and declares war on Earth and tell me those Vagan soldiers carrying out his murderous orders at that moment, including people like Zeheart loyally leading the first invasion on civilian targets with Kio and his friends going to a damn town festival just below him, is somehow not really supporting Ezelcant's cover story of carrying out divine judgement on the Earthnoids (eg killing them because Earthnoids don't deserve Earth whereas the Vagans do), and that really deep down their action is actually seeking peaceful resolution which you claim.
Holy run-on Batman!
I will direct you to the Milgram Experiment
In summary: even good people will follow orders and do bad things.


Quote:
Also how is Fram denying Kio's offer to lay down arms and talk showing her that she too is seeking peaceful co-existence. Really, please tell us why to judge the Vagans, or at least those specific characters, on these actions is wrong, I'm waiting to be enlightened.
Was Fram portrayed as a psychopath along the lines of Desil or Minks who just wants to kill people and hates the Earthers? Because that's what you're suggesting...

I'm not saying Fram is right, because obviously the only person in hte right is Kio, everyone else is wrong. But to fault Fram for not taking Kio's offer is just stupid. 99% of people would have the same reaction as Fram. faulting her for that is just pulling at straws.
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:32   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Holy run-on Batman!
I will direct you to the Milgram Experiment
In summary: even good people will follow orders and do bad things.
Claiming to be following orders did not spare war criminals from being convicted.

Heck Germany and Japan's cultural mindsets had to be broken. Now Germany is reluctant to join NATO in actions like Libya. Japan reserves it military for self defense only. Not to mention they became a non-religious society after the emperor Hirohito declard himself not divine.
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:35   Link #52
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Am I getting this right ?
The guy that is now in command of the Lunar Base was a Vagan spy.
He sabotaged the projet and after that he got Reina on the path to revenge...
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:47   Link #53
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Originally Posted by LostSome View Post
Am I getting this right ?
The guy that is now in command of the Lunar Base was a Vagan spy.
He sabotaged the project and after that he got Reina on the path to revenge...
That is one theory. If Aaron Simmons is the tech guy. Next episode might confirm it.

If that is so Reina has been played much like Londo Mollari of Babylon 5 by Morden. Offering a way of revenge when in fact the one offering is the wrong doer.

Also if that is true the authenticity of the recording comes to question.

Assemu did spend 13 years hunting down traitors working for Vegans in a extra-legal manner.

Something Flit wouldn't have done as does purging legally with ironclad proof.
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Old 2012-07-30, 16:11   Link #54
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Claiming to be following orders did not spare war criminals from being convicted.

Heck Germany and Japan's cultural mindsets had to be broken. Now Germany is reluctant to join NATO in actions like Libya. Japan reserves it military for self defense only. Not to mention they became a non-religious society after the emperor Hirohito declard himself not divine.
only the higher ups that were politically convenient to prosecute ever so court. Emperor Hiroito for example did not get prosecuted for war crimes even though he was responsible for all the atrocities the Japanese Imperial Army committed throughout Asia.
Many war criminals also made deals with the US and USSR in exchange for their knowledge and expertise.
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Old 2012-07-30, 16:16   Link #55
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The authencity of the recording doesn`t really matter at that point if it`s really what happened...
Reina was used by Vagan and the Fed is corrupted either way.
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Old 2012-07-30, 16:23   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
only the higher ups that were politically convenient to prosecute ever so court. Emperor Hiroito for example did not get prosecuted for war crimes even though he was responsible for all the atrocities the Japanese Imperial Army committed throughout Asia.
Many war criminals also made deals with the US and USSR in exchange for their knowledge and expertise.
Pray tell why death camp guards are still being hunted down, prosecuted and convicted to this day?

Claiming to be following orders does not mean they are the exception.
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:00   Link #57
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Flit hasn't killed yet in cold blood.
He hasn't what? How many Vagan did he kill in Gen 1? Because I can tell you it wasn't 0, and not at any single point did Flit view the Vagan as anything other than monsters.

Quote:
After all these years there is little choice left. Except if the Vagans can be convinced to surrender.
So... you're saying since the Vagan started it, the only way to stop it is for the Vagan to surrender? That's so naive I don't even know where to start, but I suggest you do a bit of research into World War I. Or II, since you're so fond of bringing up the Nationalsozialistische.

Quote:
Vegan's have been using Colony destroyers since the first arc attacking Nora. They had them in stock in Downes in the second arc. They've been firing the damn things at the Federation fleet.

What do you they are not using them?!
Do you just take selectively from my posts to suit your opinion? I NEVER said the Vagan weren't using them. Go look at what you quoted; I put a very specific, very meaningful qualifier in it.

Quote:
The Federation is the only one reasonable or should I say chicken to use WMD until the recent arc.

It took 70 years to clean off that idealism made in a hundred years of peace.
No... the Federation just didn't have the tech to match it, which is another reason your MAD theory doesn't pan out here. The Vagan have enough Colony Destroyers and enough of a massive advantage to have ended the Federation before Flit even started work on the AGE-1. Yet they didn't. Now the Federation has the tech to match and... what's that? Yeah, they're not bloody using it.

Quote:
Then don't come here to discuss.
Nobody is forcing you.
That's... my god. You're a revolutionary! Why in the world didn't I think of something so simple before? I... I just can't believe how many overly simplified, misrepresentative, and totally off-base responses you make to what I say.

Here's a bit of advice: You obviously have some education, but it's like you either half-assed it or didn't bother to delve deeply enough into what you were studying. So before you start trying to throw around real world examples, don't make it so easy to pick them apart. If you'd bothered even a little bit to delve into Nazi Germany beyond the basic 10th grade history less, you wouldn't be talking about the Holocaust and death camps and trying to force them onto the Vagan and Ezelcant; you would be saying one word over and over: Lebensraum. Go look it up. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go talk to people far more pleasant and intelligent than you.

*deep breath* That felt good.

*waves hand at mod* Do what you want, but that needed to be said. And yes, I have had a bad day; was it that obvious?
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:10   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
He hasn't what? How many Vagan did he kill in Gen 1? Because I can tell you it wasn't 0, and not at any single point did Flit view the Vagan as anything other than monsters.
He said cold blood. There's a huge difference or did you expect Flit to just sit there and watch the Vagans slaughter everybody else?

As combat doctrines go, the second a civilian grabs a weapon and aims it at a soldier he/she forfeits the right to live and is considered a combatant.

When it came down to facing a helpless Vagan Flit couldn't pull the trigger. If he was really into it he would not have hesitated.

Quote:
No... the Federation just didn't have the tech to match it, which is another reason your MAD theory doesn't pan out here. The Vagan have enough Colony Destroyers and enough of a massive advantage to have ended the Federation before Flit even started work on the AGE-1. Yet they didn't. Now the Federation has the tech to match and... what's that? Yeah, they're not bloody using it.
That's because the whole thing is a test just as Ezcelant admitted to killing his own people to see who would be worthy to go into Eden.

Hell this war isn't about returning to the Earth Sphere to begin with.

The Federation on the other hand has been on the defensive and what's the point of using mass destruction weapons on an enemy that you cannot even reach to begin with?

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Old 2012-07-30, 17:20   Link #59
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thats pretty sad that u love anime more than ur country
I don't think a random sports event has anything to do with loving a country.


That aside, can't we just say "Both sides have reasons for doing what they do and neither side truly deserves to win/lose this?
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Old 2012-07-30, 23:13   Link #60
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I think that its really sad that some one would prefer to watch anime, which can be viewed anytime u want than watching the olympics which happens once every 4 years
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