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Old 2012-07-30, 06:37   Link #29861
kevan3
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Haha, just think if Yasu actually turns out to be male.
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:01   Link #29862
jjblue1
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Haha, just think if Yasu actually turns out to be male.
I've been wondering if it could be that Yasu merely has the same problem as Sadako from The Ring.
According to the class Yasu had this could give her a body that's unable to love and that's something 'in between' male and female.

This could also justify how Yasu could have been technically a male but Genji and Co preferred him to believe he was a female without having to go into Nanjo performing sex change operations on an infant and how she would have preferred to die than be left to live with a body like that.

Ring is likely popular in Japan so maybe Ryukishi took inspiration from it and assumed everyone would figure out the reference as well... though this wouldn't explain why Yasu has no breasts...

Just tossing in an idea, I figure we'll never know the truth about Yasu.
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:25   Link #29863
Renall
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The real question is why after writing a story that was closer to the truth (at least Eva survives) he decided to write forgeries that progressively gets weirder and weirder. Or at least that's what we can speculate, we don't actually know how much the messages and the forgeries match with the stories we read.
We also don't know who wrote End specifically, or why exactly. There's also the question of what, if anything, Requiem and Twilight even were, and if they existed in any form as works in Prime at all.

Also, maybe it's me, but Tohya has some serious mother issues. The first two stories really lionize Natsuhi and Rosa and make them seem pretty warm-hearted and cool, but then it sort of ends up with the mothers getting portrayed as overly-ambitious, flat-out crazy, or just plain bastards, culminating in Dawn's Mommy Snuff Night. You got something to tell us, Battler?
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:33   Link #29864
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post




Ep 3 has a fundamental problem. The killing should have stopped with the discovery of the gold and yet it goes on. Ryukishi said Yasu would have stuck to her word of stopping the killing if the epitaph was solved but we know she, for sure killed Nanjo
There is an easy explanation for this.

Yasu stopped the killings which is why the stakings stopped after the 5th.
However someone else murdered Rosa,Maria and George.
Remember Ronove refusing to answer if Kyrie,Rudolph and Hideyoshi were dead they are also strong candidates especially when I consider the Numbers left by George are the Killers Intentions.
7 Stakings.
15 People to murder without Shannon,Kanon and Kinzo.
11 People to stake until the 9th Twilight without Shannon and Kanon.
29 People died altogether in the first 3 games by the Killers Hands until the 9th Twilight without Kinzo,Shannon and Kanon.

No way would the killer leave that behind.
Here's what I think.
Kyrie and Rudolph found out the Killers intentions and suspected multiple people.
Thus they killed Rosa and Maria became a witness thus broke the staking cycle as seen per magical view on them killing Belphegor and Leviathan which were the stakes missing due to the deaths of Maria and Rosa.
Meanwhile Yasu continued the stakings not knowing the epitaph was infact solved by Eva and Rosa.
Kyrie,Hideyoshis and Rudolphs deaths weren't in red until later as Ronove refused to state it when Battler asked.
Yasu stopped her stakings at the 9th twilight upon finding out Eva solved it.
However, Kyrie and Rudolph marched on, killing George.After that, not Kyrie but Rudolph left the numbers behind for not Eva but Battler.
"Kyrie did not leave anything written down." Doesn't apply for her Husband.
However, Yasu noticed Georges death herself but didn't know Kyrie and Rudolph are still alive thus killed Nanjo as "Punishment" for believing he killed him.
I go and say this could apply for Game 1 as well.
Game 1 - Finding out the Killers Intentions and tried to stop them but were killed by the attempt which is why Rudolph suspected his death and were killed for it as they went on to stop Yasu or whoever they suspected.
Which is why the stakings stopped after the 3rd one.
Kyrie and Rudolph finding it out caused a change of Modus Operandi or least the message left behind.




Not much later, Yasu killed them herself.
Rest is as it was.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-07-30 at 08:47.
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Old 2012-07-30, 08:35   Link #29865
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Also, maybe it's me, but Tohya has some serious mother issues. The first two stories really lionize Natsuhi and Rosa and make them seem pretty warm-hearted and cool, but then it sort of ends up with the mothers getting portrayed as overly-ambitious, flat-out crazy, or just plain bastards, culminating in Dawn's Mommy Snuff Night. You got something to tell us, Battler?
I could see Tohya having residual anger toward Kyrie for being the one his/Battler's father went to so quickly after Asumu's death, and then taking it out on mother figures in the fiction, but in the stories themselves Battler seems to like Kyrie a lot.
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Old 2012-07-30, 09:37   Link #29866
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We also don't know who wrote End specifically, or why exactly. There's also the question of what, if anything, Requiem and Twilight even were, and if they existed in any form as works in Prime at all.

Also, maybe it's me, but Tohya has some serious mother issues. The first two stories really lionize Natsuhi and Rosa and make them seem pretty warm-hearted and cool, but then it sort of ends up with the mothers getting portrayed as overly-ambitious, flat-out crazy, or just plain bastards, culminating in Dawn's Mommy Snuff Night. You got something to tell us, Battler?
The problem is we don't know how much of that mother's portray is Tohya's, how much is Ikuko's, how much is due to the public opinion (which portrayed the adults in a definitely not nice way) and how much is due to what Battler might have discovered/witnessed about his family in those fateful days.

If his nice and funny aunt Eva shot him as in Ep 3, he witnessed gentle aunt Rosa beat little Maria and heard from Yasu that pure aunt Natsuhi tried to murder her while cool Kyrie actually loathed him and really murdered a lot of people... well, he's not going to like them much...

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
when I consider the Numbers left by George are the Killers Intentions.
7 Stakings.
15 People to murder without Shannon,Kanon and Kinzo.
11 People to stake until the 9th Twilight without Shannon and Kanon.
29 People died altogether in the first 3 games by the Killers Hands until the 9th Twilight without Kinzo,Shannon and Kanon.
The problem is that those numbers matches Battler & Beato's birthdates and the code needed to access to the bank account.

It's real Umineko has plenty of coincidences but this feels way too forced.
It also implied meta knowledge as you involve previous games which usually is shown only in magic scenes. However Battler saw those numbers so they can't be 'magic', they were real.
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Old 2012-07-30, 11:40   Link #29867
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Ep 3 has a fundamental problem. The killing should have stopped with the discovery of the gold and yet it goes on. Ryukishi said Yasu would have stuck to her word of stopping the killing if the epitaph was solved but we know she, for sure, killed Nanjo.
So, either the epitaph wasn't solved and the magical scene depicting its solving represent something else or something happened (possibly murders not made by her) that forced her to continue in her plan of killing people.
This is actually not an unreasonable conclusion. Public opinion around the time of writing held that Eva was the culprit. That theory necessarily involves Eva solving the epitaph so that she can gain the head's ring and the means to escape the explosion after committing the murders. If we see the Eva-Beatrice narrative as the result of the Reader projecting that theory onto the blank spaces of the game board, then it's actually pretty natural to think that the scenes of Eva solving the epitaph and sneaking out to find the gold could also be part of that projection.

You can build a pretty solid theory of EP3 on the premise that Piece-Beatrice initially made Eva an accomplice and then set out to frame her for the remaining murders as a distraction after she was forced to kill off her other accomplices prematurely.
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Old 2012-07-30, 13:42   Link #29868
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It's also possible the epitaph was solved and the killer was never made aware of it. In ep3, Eva and Rosa conspire to keep it a secret. If they do that, and Beatrice doesn't find out that they've done it, how is she supposed to know to stop?
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:03   Link #29869
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Well I think Yasu would realize that the Lion heads were turned and some stuff was opened up.
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:30   Link #29870
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This is actually not an unreasonable conclusion. Public opinion around the time of writing held that Eva was the culprit. That theory necessarily involves Eva solving the epitaph so that she can gain the head's ring and the means to escape the explosion after committing the murders. If we see the Eva-Beatrice narrative as the result of the Reader projecting that theory onto the blank spaces of the game board, then it's actually pretty natural to think that the scenes of Eva solving the epitaph and sneaking out to find the gold could also be part of that projection.

You can build a pretty solid theory of EP3 on the premise that Piece-Beatrice initially made Eva an accomplice and then set out to frame her for the remaining murders as a distraction after she was forced to kill off her other accomplices prematurely.
The problem is that no matter how you look at it, the murder of Rosa and Maria, which kills Maria so early and, even more important, is missing the stakes, doesn't look like Yasu's style. It really looks like someone else on the island killed Rosa and then Maria and tried to frame 'Beato' for it (they can't know about the stakes as the previous murders didn't need them and likely it's Yasu who has them).
If Rosa killed Maria and then herself I could wave it off as something no one planned but Beato denied this theory.
So a third person is definitely involved, someone who pushed Rosa against the fence (maybe even without meaning to kill her) and then strangled Maria as witnesser or because in this way their deaths would look like they were part of the epitaphs' murders and this third person obviously doesn't know about the stakes so he/she didn't use them.

As someone pointed out the fact that Rudolf and Kyrie killed 2 stakes might be an interesting magic parallel to point out they're responsible for that murder... but this is just speculation though.

Magic also showed Eva killing them... so really, the thing is unsure.

Though magic also pointed again at Kyrie as the possible murderer for Hideyoshi so maybe it's not that much of speculation to assume Kyrie isn't as innocent as she might look...

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It's also possible the epitaph was solved and the killer was never made aware of it. In ep3, Eva and Rosa conspire to keep it a secret. If they do that, and Beatrice doesn't find out that they've done it, how is she supposed to know to stop?
I considered this time ago and I liked this theory but again it rain against the same point: why the stakes weren't involved if the murderer was PieceYasu? Why did she changed her modus operandi for apparently no reason?
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Old 2012-07-30, 16:20   Link #29871
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On the matter of Leviathan and Belphegor... hrm, well, I don't wanna say "stop thinking about it", but I do, kinda?

Regardless of what actually happened on the EP3 gameboard, we still have a fantasy narrative laid on top of those happenings. Regardless of who killed Rosa and Maria, the lack of stakes on them is a tool that's used in the fantasy narrative. Either as a "clue" or "for funsies", I couldnt say, but do keep in mind that these are written tales, and Hachijou DOES go out of her way to consider that her stories also be, just, interesting and exciting.

So, conservation of detail and all that. If Hachijou wanted to write a story where "only 5 stakes are used, for reason X", it frees up 2 stakes for a potential badass action scene in the Hall. Why the hell not - similar to the inconsistent portrayals of the goats, why not, funsies and duels and middle-aged housewives casting time magic with MATH.
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Old 2012-07-30, 16:45   Link #29872
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
So a third person is definitely involved, someone who pushed Rosa against the fence (maybe even without meaning to kill her) and then strangled Maria as witnesser or because in this way their deaths would look like they were part of the epitaphs' murders and this third person obviously doesn't know about the stakes so he/she didn't use them.

As someone pointed out the fact that Rudolf and Kyrie killed 2 stakes might be an interesting magic parallel to point out they're responsible for that murder... but this is just speculation though.

Magic also showed Eva killing them... so really, the thing is unsure.

Though magic also pointed again at Kyrie as the possible murderer for Hideyoshi so maybe it's not that much of speculation to assume Kyrie isn't as innocent as she might look...



I considered this time ago and I liked this theory but again it rain against the same point: why the stakes weren't involved if the murderer was PieceYasu? Why did she changed her modus operandi for apparently no reason?
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On the matter of Leviathan and Belphegor... hrm, well, I don't wanna say "stop thinking about it", but I do, kinda?

Regardless of what actually happened on the EP3 gameboard, we still have a fantasy narrative laid on top of those happenings. Regardless of who killed Rosa and Maria, the lack of stakes on them is a tool that's used in the fantasy narrative. Either as a "clue" or "for funsies", I couldnt say, but do keep in mind that these are written tales, and Hachijou DOES go out of her way to consider that her stories also be, just, interesting and exciting.

So, conservation of detail and all that. If Hachijou wanted to write a story where "only 5 stakes are used, for reason X", it frees up 2 stakes for a potential badass action scene in the Hall. Why the hell not - similar to the inconsistent portrayals of the goats, why not, funsies and duels and middle-aged housewives casting time magic with MATH.
I wouldn't put it off just yet, Kealym.

There's still the possibility that Eva and Rosa never found the gold to begin with. It's sort of the same concept as when Battler was given the letter in EP5(?) in that it might've been shown to us to have happened but, after looking at facts, it probably didn't.

The key thing here is that it was never mentioned afterwards (if I recall). Eva and Rosa's secrecy on the matter was probably nothing more than an explanation since, if you consider their characters, they would most definitely tell the others of their find. The only time it was mentioned is when Eva passes on the Beatrice name to Ange but that's more of a referrence to the magical scene rather than it hinting to her finding the gold.

I assume that it was the same situation in EP2 where all the adults had seen Beatrice thus knowing of her existence, being shown the gold, etc.. So, of course, Eva never really found the gold.
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:44   Link #29873
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I wouldn't put it off just yet, Kealym.

There's still the possibility that Eva and Rosa never found the gold to begin with. It's sort of the same concept as when Battler was given the letter in EP5(?) in that it might've been shown to us to have happened but, after looking at facts, it probably didn't.

The key thing here is that it was never mentioned afterwards (if I recall). Eva and Rosa's secrecy on the matter was probably nothing more than an explanation since, if you consider their characters, they would most definitely tell the others of their find. The only time it was mentioned is when Eva passes on the Beatrice name to Ange but that's more of a referrence to the magical scene rather than it hinting to her finding the gold.

I assume that it was the same situation in EP2 where all the adults had seen Beatrice thus knowing of her existence, being shown the gold, etc.. So, of course, Eva never really found the gold.
Well, I acknowledge the possibility that Eva didn't find the gold in EP3.

I was mostly saying that the writer of a forgery is probably allowed to take some liberties for the sake of entertainment. Rosa and Maria not being staked was an interesting change of pace, hints to a change in MO, AND allows Kyrolf to actually do something cool (in addition to showing how much of a threat Evatrice was by having her replace the fallen Stakes with the super-special-awesome Siestas). Narratively, it's not a bad move at all, so I have a hard time jumping from "Rosa and Maria weren't staked" to "Kyrie, Rudolf, Natsuhi, and Krauss made a MURDER PACT even though they suspected the servants were faking".


Also, I wouldn't quite compare it to the EP5 letter incident ... I mean, assuming the adults discussion of the epitaph happened at all, they were basically just shy of having the answer. I can believe that any of them (except Natsuhi or Krauss, who can be sort of dense) made the final push after such substantial help from the others. I can ALSO believe that Eva may have felt insecure in her claim to the headship, since it could potentially be her word against Rosa's on finding it first. but that's besides the point. I wouldn't compare the two because Eva's witchiness was a HUGE overarching theme in Banquet, whereas the letter (as you say) is never even mentioned again, so I'd assume "Eva found her some gold" has a little more substance to it.
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Old 2012-07-30, 19:19   Link #29874
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though this wouldn't explain why Yasu has no breasts
What? If Yasu was an androgen resistant male he could not have breasts. Though I don't remember that coming up in the ring (maybe not in the Western version...)

Quote:
The problem is that those numbers matches Battler & Beato's birthdates and the code needed to access to the bank account.
When did we learn their birthdays? Also another issue with that theory is yes, without meta knowledge that pattern couldn't mean anything to Rudolf because it is meaningless without prior knowledge.
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after she was forced to kill off her other accomplices prematurely
How did that get forced?
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Well I think Yasu would realize that the Lion heads were turned and some stuff was opened up
Not necessarily, if she was never able to separate off from the group to go check on it she might not. However the magic scene implied that Yasu did know that Eva was at least supposed to have solved the epitaph. Unless she really thought they siblings would tell each-other if they found the gold.

Actually here's a thought, did Kinzo's guns actually come from his study? It would be an interesting twist if Yasu always kept them in the gold room (ala Ep 7 tea party). This would mean people either solved the epitaph a lot, and she just never bothered to follow the rules (unlikely) OR she often took people who were accomplices down there...

Finally, when I asked about the challenge mentioned in the description of Evatrice, I hadn't considered that she did succeed where Beatrice failed: People spent all their time trying to find a culprit other than the magic witch for the crimes, but lots of people loved Eva culprit theory.
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Old 2012-07-30, 19:21   Link #29875
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In the whole 07151129 part of EP3. Battler says his birthdat is 07/15, and Yasu solved the epitaph in 11/29, so you can consider it as Beatrice's birthday.
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Old 2012-07-30, 19:23   Link #29876
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Oh that's right, I didn't remember the date Beatrice solved the epitaph though
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Old 2012-07-30, 19:57   Link #29877
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
On the matter of Leviathan and Belphegor... hrm, well, I don't wanna say "stop thinking about it", but I do, kinda?

Regardless of what actually happened on the EP3 gameboard, we still have a fantasy narrative laid on top of those happenings. Regardless of who killed Rosa and Maria, the lack of stakes on them is a tool that's used in the fantasy narrative. Either as a "clue" or "for funsies", I couldnt say, but do keep in mind that these are written tales, and Hachijou DOES go out of her way to consider that her stories also be, just, interesting and exciting.

So, conservation of detail and all that. If Hachijou wanted to write a story where "only 5 stakes are used, for reason X", it frees up 2 stakes for a potential badass action scene in the Hall. Why the hell not - similar to the inconsistent portrayals of the goats, why not, funsies and duels and middle-aged housewives casting time magic with MATH.
Well, I like to think that the forgeries have, at least, consistence in how Yasu is portrayed. The magic scene with the stakes might not be relevant but Rosa and Maria should have died as it was said and there were no stake on them.
The adults have no reason to lie on the absence of the stakes and the stakes weren't obviously used as a murdering weapon yet they were on the other corpses.

Either they are part of the ritual for whoever is writing the forgery or they're not.
It's so random they're edited out that I prefer to think there's a reason for it than just 'Tohya put them in the story at random but failed to get their significance in the ritual so he didn't use them in the second murder'.

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What? If Yasu was an androgen resistant male he could not have breasts. Though I don't remember that coming up in the ring (maybe not in the Western version...)
It seems androgen resistant males can develop breasts. It's one of the things I checked because if they couldn't it would really fit well. I'm not an expert though and it's possible Ryukishi simply decided Yasu wasn't in the bunch that was going to develop one.

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When did we learn their birthdays? Also another issue with that theory is yes, without meta knowledge that pattern couldn't mean anything to Rudolf because it is meaningless without prior knowledge.
In Ep 3 Battler says his own just as he sees those numbers. In fact he immediately recognizes the first part as his birthday and asks if the second could match with someone else's birthday.
In Ep 7 we're told when Yasu discovered the gold and became 'Beato'. The date matched with the second part.
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Old 2012-07-30, 20:04   Link #29878
Kealym
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Actually here's a thought, did Kinzo's guns actually come from his study? It would be an interesting twist if Yasu always kept them in the gold room (ala Ep 7 tea party). This would mean people either solved the epitaph a lot, and she just never bothered to follow the rules (unlikely) OR she often took people who were accomplices down there...
'
Well ... I'd kind of assumed they were in the study.
In EP1, Natsuhi just grabs one from ... somewhere.
In EP2, Yasu almost certainly just gives one to Rosa from upstairs somewhere.
In EP3, they're somewhere Kratsuhi can direct the adults to easily enough.

I'd say maybe Yasu keeps them in the gold room on the first night, and if noone comes by, returns them to the study in the morning.

In fact, thinking about the thing... assuming Yasu figured "of course they'd announce it immediately", Shannon could just always keep a letter from Beatrice on her person acknowledging the end of the game. And she could always say something like "I recieved this just before the conference, and they threatened my life via the phone last week..."

And as someone suggested much earlier, there will be a P.S from Kinzo about how he's skipped town and plans to never return.
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Old 2012-07-30, 20:07   Link #29879
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How did that get forced?
Meta-Battler pressing her about the number of people on the island was a forcing move. Meta-Beatrice had to wheel out Rosa's confession about Beatrice-2's death as a distraction, and that led the siblings to lock themselves up in the dining room all night where her piece couldn't get at them easily.

The grandchildren were all sleeping in the same room with Battler, so they weren't available as first twilight victims either. That only left Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda, Kinzo's corpse, Shannon, and Kanon. Since she would have to fake her death at least once no matter what, she couldn't sacrifice Nanjo, and she didn't dare leave any of the others alive because that would literally be the first solution Meta-Battler would come up with. So now she's out nearly all of her accomplices and her spare corpse, and she can't stay near the survivors either. It's a pretty dangerous middle game position for her, hence the need for the feint with Eva.

She may have had some options to break open the dining room, so it wasn't necessarily the best series of moves she could have made.
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Old 2012-07-30, 20:24   Link #29880
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Yeah the whole Yasu moving the guns makes sense because the guns never appear until then and they aren't really talked about and considering Yasu commits the murders at night she most likely takes the guns. Kills the people then puts them in the study.
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