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Old 2012-07-28, 00:25   Link #301
jin jin5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
This poster for MST3K Mantra.

Seriously, the tech gap seems quite hopeless for humanity. Lasers break everything.
Lazers are hugely impractical in real life. Any of those smokescreen would have killed Lazers in real life no matter how strong it would have been. Lazers are only good under ideal circumstances. Any presence of gas or clouds like those metal dust they use would have nullified it even if it was that strong. Not to mention that if it was that powerful to ionize all the cloud, the BETA around the lux-tan would have been damaged too.

better would be those photon beam or some bullshit like that but Lazers sound awesome and deadly and we arent in physics class anyway
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Old 2012-07-28, 00:29   Link #302
Craxuan
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That's a pretty comprehensible read all and all - can do away with the fucks, but overall quite entertaining.
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Old 2012-07-28, 04:29   Link #303
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin jin5000 View Post
Lazers are hugely impractical in real life. Any of those smokescreen would have killed Lazers in real life no matter how strong it would have been. Lazers are only good under ideal circumstances. Any presence of gas or clouds like those metal dust they use would have nullified it even if it was that strong. Not to mention that if it was that powerful to ionize all the cloud, the BETA around the lux-tan would have been damaged too.

better would be those photon beam or some bullshit like that but Lazers sound awesome and deadly and we arent in physics class anyway
There are workarounds for Laser's "blooming" issues. This is why R&D exist for complex laser weapons. US

Real life USA (via Office of Naval Research) is developing its own BETA Laser style defence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWdGkb7r1iA

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-28 at 06:12.
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Old 2012-07-28, 06:38   Link #304
grevierr
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
There are workarounds for Laser's "blooming" issues. This is why R&D exist for complex laser weapons. US

Real life USA (via Office of Naval Research) is developing its own BETA Laser style defence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWdGkb7r1iA
Except current doctrine and specs are just for burning out the electronic head of the missile, instead of chopping it up. The higher power lasers take longer and cause more damage to itself than the target over long usage.
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Old 2012-07-28, 08:32   Link #305
encia
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Except current doctrine and specs are just for burning out the electronic head of the missile, instead of chopping it up.
According to
http://defense-update.com/products/a/atl.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/
The other target is the missile's fuel tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
The higher power lasers take longer and cause more damage to itself than the target over long usage.
Hence the word "developing" not "deploying". Durability issue is dependant on the laser generation type e.g. Free Electron Laser vs Chemical Laser vs Solid State Laser.

A collection of weaker lasers can be combined and focused on a single target.

Skyguard Laser Defense in Action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1pkTMCZ0M


Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser

FEL technology is being evaluated by the US Navy as a good candidate for an anti aircraft and missile directed-energy weapon. Significant progress is being made in raising FEL power levels (the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility's FEL has demonstrated over 14 kW)[14] and it should be possible to build compact multi-megawatt class FEL weapons.[15] On June 9, 2009 the Office of Naval Research announced it had awarded Raytheon a contract to develop a 100 kW experimental FEL.[16] On March 18, 2010 Boeing Directed Energy Systems announced the completion of an initial design for U.S. Naval use.[17] A prototype FEL system has since been demonstrated with a full-power prototype scheduled by 2018
John Corlett describes a free electron laser (FEL) and how it differs from a conventional laser. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI7_5aqqXaw

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-28 at 09:07.
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Old 2012-07-30, 14:55   Link #306
Von Himmel
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Originally Posted by Nyat View Post
I'm not sure but...
Type-00 is a imperial guard TSF so it should have superior performance.
Raptor has stealth so it should win without any problems when in ranged combat. Maybe in melee there would be some problems but given the fact it performed well against F15 it shouldn't go bad.
Copy paste from novel discussion thread since I don't know whether that's the right place to ask this: Is Shiranui 2 a mass-produced TSF? Also, I've read that they also possess XM3 (from the wiki though. Can anyone give confirmation about this? ;_; )... wouldn't they be better or at least equal with Raptor with that OS?
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:20   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Copy paste from novel discussion thread since I don't know whether that's the right place to ask this: Is Shiranui 2 a mass-produced TSF? Also, I've read that they also possess XM3 (from the wiki though. Can anyone give confirmation about this? ;_; )... wouldn't they be better or at least equal with Raptor with that OS?
The Shiranui is the mass produced unit used by the Japanese Imperial Army, while the Takemikazuchi is used solely by the Imperial Honor Guard.

The XM3 is a improved OS that was in developed late 2001(around november), but Total Eclipse begins earlier than this(July if I'm not mistaken). So at the beginning of TE, the XM3 wasn't even developed yet.

A unit with the XM3 has a performance roughfully 30% better than a unit with the old OS. But I don't know if with it a Shiranui can beat a Raptor.
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:29   Link #308
grevierr
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Originally Posted by Belgaesh View Post
The Shiranui is the mass produced unit used by the Japanese Imperial Army, while the Takemikazuchi is used solely by the Imperial Honor Guard.

The XM3 is a improved OS that was in developed late 2001(around november), but Total Eclipse begins earlier than this(July if I'm not mistaken). So at the beginning of TE, the XM3 wasn't even developed yet.

A unit with the XM3 has a performance roughfully 30% better than a unit with the old OS. But I don't know if with it a Shiranui can beat a Raptor.
Spoiler for MLA:
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Old 2012-07-30, 17:32   Link #309
Belgaesh
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Spoiler for MLA:
Yeah, there still that to acount for. But I think it will, as it is Muv-Luv Alternative Total Eclipse.

Someone knows if there is some mention to the XM3 in the stories that deal with the future after Alternative?
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Old 2012-07-30, 18:11   Link #310
grevierr
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Originally Posted by Belgaesh View Post
Yeah, there still that to acount for. But I think it will, as it is Muv-Luv Alternative Total Eclipse.

Someone knows if there is some mention to the XM3 in the stories that deal with the future after Alternative?
I was giving a non-spoiler answer but:
Spoiler for Post MLA:
At this point in the anime though, its still before Oct 2001, the pivotal point in the plot.
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Old 2012-07-30, 22:31   Link #311
DezoPenguin
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I nearly laughed my head off when I stumbled across this article, given what we're all discussing about the differences between U.S. and Japanese TSF combat philosophy:

http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fighter-l...opstories.html
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Old 2012-07-30, 22:42   Link #312
galdr
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
I nearly laughed my head off when I stumbled across this article, given what we're all discussing about the differences between U.S. and Japanese TSF combat philosophy:

http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fighter-l...opstories.html

Is this just a funny coincidence or Muv Luv creator did their homework very well?
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Old 2012-07-31, 00:27   Link #313
Von Himmel
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In case I wasn't clear enough about it before, I was talking about TSF-Type04/XFJ-01 Shiranui Second (不知火 弐型), the one that got trialed around 2003. To quote it from wiki :
Quote:
n April 2003, the Shiranui Second is trialed by the Fuji School Brigade Urd Squadron during Operation Sledgehammer to capture the Cheorwon Hive, equipped with XM3
So.. if this thing really got mass-produced with XM3 (I wonder how Yuuko deal with the empire concerning the XM3 ), coupled with japanese pilot skills (which somehow tends to be pretty skilled), wouldn't they be better than Raptor?

...Of course Raptor has that stealth capability and great spec for Anti-TSF combat, so I guess we couldn't make sure of it
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Old 2012-07-31, 01:32   Link #314
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Off topic: Overall Stealth Technology is something the US has always for the most part had a monopoly in. Its probably one of the best kept secrets within the US Arsenal when there are leaks abound in every other part of the Gov. Although now within the last 2 or so years we have seen Russian and China dabble in current stealth aircraft. But even then these are still probably faux with limited stealth capabilities. That and Stealth Aircraft are expensive placing the US in the best position to not only produce the best stealth aircraft in addition of buying the most. I think China and Russian are probably looking into more stealth detection technology first.

I think it fits US doctrine quite well in the MuvLuv world to still keep your friends close and enemies closer and the BETA as far away from you as possible. I have learned in real life its always better to keep your adversary at distance no matter what. If you can attack at distance you will always have the advantage over any close in fighter. When you are up close, then its becomes the skill set of each individual. Fight dirty and never fight fair.

Even the Japanese in the opening 2 eps never fought close until the last second. You can see them opening up with missiles, artillery, tanks and battleship cannons. Every ounce of long range weaponry they could deploy against the BETA before absolutely sending the TSF in.
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Old 2012-07-31, 01:46   Link #315
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All these talk about anti TSF and anti BETA no-one defined the difference between the two and why certain focus gives the edge.

So Japanese focus on close combat and apparently they built their TSF to be anti-BETA - does that mean close combat is the most effective method to deal with BETA? (from the anime doesn't appear to be the case - or for that matter not enough forces are deployed to display the critical mass required to be effective - it's always BETA swarm vs a couple TSF which can only get surrounded and die - why is close combat effective again?)

The analogy of F-22 can only apply to TSF vs TSF - F-22 (the actual aircraft) should never ever end up in a situation that require dog fighting capabilities. It's all about sensor range (weapon), have enough speed to burn off opponents who give chase and stealth which creates a situation where the F-22 will never engage an enemy on unfavourable terms. I don't think the same applies to BETA? I'm assuming stealth does not matter vs BETA because otherwise everyone should have stealth as it gives a huge advantage and nullifies the laser class.
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Old 2012-07-31, 02:09   Link #316
YF19EX
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Well it comes down to the laser class again that nullifies all air superiority and long range attacks. Even supposedly supersonic cruise missiles and even high speed artillery can be shot down by the laser class totally nerfing any long range advantage.

Then it comes down to ground fighting. And when faced with a Zerg rush of BETA the size of buildings with armor thicker than a mountain and you have the unfortunately recipe for close in. Which makes me wonder how they are going to deploy that energy cannon (Eva style) that was brought up in Ep1. In fact I would think energy weapons would probably be the most favorable to use vs kinetic if you want to cook something and at range. Nothing like developing your own laser to match the enemy. If you can technological develop mecha, surely energy weapons should not be that far off.
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Old 2012-07-31, 02:21   Link #317
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Well laser class is only effective against 'explosive' type of projectile attacks but does not appear to be effective against bullets (or why the guns on TSFs?) Laser superheats sections causing structural failure in missiles or TSFs, no such problems for shells - themselves is the payload and Laser will not be able to vaporise metal or time to deal with masses of them. Basically you just need something that fires a lot of solid slugs at the same time. If BBs can fire outside range of BETA laser, then the same can be achieved with stationary turrets.
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Old 2012-07-31, 03:31   Link #318
encia
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Originally Posted by potchip View Post
All these talk about anti TSF and anti BETA no-one defined the difference between the two and why certain focus gives the edge.

So Japanese focus on close combat and apparently they built their TSF to be anti-BETA - does that mean close combat is the most effective method to deal with BETA? (from the anime doesn't appear to be the case - or for that matter not enough forces are deployed to display the critical mass required to be effective - it's always BETA swarm vs a couple TSF which can only get surrounded and die - why is close combat effective again?)

The analogy of F-22 can only apply to TSF vs TSF - F-22 (the actual aircraft) should never ever end up in a situation that require dog fighting capabilities.
Well, RL F-22 can dog-fight at similar levels as near half priced RL Euro-fighter.
RL F-35 is like RL F-16 with 5th gen-features.
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Old 2012-07-31, 03:56   Link #319
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The thing about close combat capability is that if you plan on actually holding some ground or pushing forward aggressively instead of running away to keep range, the sheer numbers of enemies are going to be piling up and forcing you into ultra close quarters eventually, if you don't run out of ammunition first.

So being able to survive in close quarters is quite handy for BETA combat. That's not to say that you shouldn't do your damnedest to try engaging at distance out of the reach of Grapplers, Tanks, Destroyers etc., it's just a fact that BETA fights have a chance of devolving into close-up dust ups. Meanwhile high mobility long distance engagement works just fine for humans, except for that whole YF-22 versus YF-23 thing where stealth versus stealth ended up with them stumbling into each other at close range since they couldn't track each other, then ended up with YF-23 victories in melee.

At least, that's how I see it, I could be wrong.
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Old 2012-07-31, 05:11   Link #320
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
In case I wasn't clear enough about it before, I was talking about TSF-Type04/XFJ-01 Shiranui Second (不知火 弐型), the one that got trialed around 2003. To quote it from wiki :

(
OH wow,for this to be asked at a time like this. Truly a coincidence.

The Story you refer to was translated by a anon on 4 chan /m posted less than 30 minutes ago from when i m writing this.

go read it now. its the second story posted in that thread.
http://archive.foolz.us/m/thread/8053137/#8055003

or fuck it i will just post it here
Spoiler for size:
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