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Old 2012-07-30, 13:47   Link #101
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No she wasn't bested because she wasn't trying. Yuuya just showed her that he learns quickly and finally figured out what Yui was trying to teach him.


Furthermore the duel ended because Yui got what she wanted, it didn't end because he "Beat" her or that she couldn't fight anymore which is clearly not the case at all. Even Yuuya knows he didn't beat Yui at all and this was all part of her plan.
She wasn't holding back with her sword and properly dueled him with it and acknowledged his potential. She's already admitted that he will be the best, only a matter of time.

Yuuya knew she didn't go all out, and with her machine which is better, she probably would beat him with being more familiar with her machine compared to him. But on a sword vs sword fight, she was properly dueling him, and he Disarmed her. She was planning on him learning to be one with the machine, the being disarmed part caught her off guard.

And to correct you, she didn't stop the fight technically, headquarters did once she was disarmed, they were satisfied with what they saw.
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Old 2012-07-30, 13:47   Link #102
Sheba
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Yui did not want to win, she wanted Yuuya to integrate the japanese mindset of handling japanese TSF, akin to a shock therapy. And she got it. Why are people still discussing about "lol she lost"?
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Old 2012-07-30, 13:52   Link #103
Trajan
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Really, Yuuya lost when he ignored U.S. combat doctrine and engaged Yui on her terms; he fought to her strength, not his. You don't try and out-turn a Zero and you don't try and out-duel a Takemikazuchi.

He should have backed off and lit her up with his rifle.
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Old 2012-07-30, 13:53   Link #104
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Why are people still discussing about "lol she lost"?
Cause a lot of people liked that part, myself included.

I'd probably lean more towards team Yuuya at the moment in the Yuuya vs Yui debate currently going on.
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Old 2012-07-30, 13:55   Link #105
Silvance
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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Really, Yuuya lost when he ignored U.S. combat doctrine and engaged Yui on her terms; he fought to her strength, not his. You don't try and out-turn a Zero and you don't try and out-duel a Takemikazuchi.
The rifle did not have real ammunition for the simulator which was the primary reason why Yuuya was forced to draw out the long sword even though he hasn't used it before. Yui was after that. Forcing Yuuya to engage her in close-quarters until he shows movements that she seeks from him.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Yui did not want to win, she wanted Yuuya to integrate the japanese mindset of handling japanese TSF, akin to a shock therapy. And she got it. Why are people still discussing about "lol she lost"?
Because they believe that disarming a Type-00 with it's long sword alone, and with an Imperial Royal Guard without any desire for victory is a valid and utter defeat?
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Old 2012-07-30, 14:03   Link #106
Trajan
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Originally Posted by Silvance View Post
The rifle did not have real ammunition for the simulator which was the primary reason why Yuuya was forced to draw out the long sword even though he hasn't used it before.
That doesn't really matter. Yui's whole goal was to teach Yuuya the "superior" Japanese doctrine of close-quarter combat and maneuverability in a mock battle. Yuuya should have countered with an attack from distance (i.e., the American doctrine). Yuuya damaging Yui's TSF is not the point, all that matters is that Yui recognize that she would be dead.

Basically, as Indiana Jones teaches, Gun > Sword at more than a few meters.
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Old 2012-07-30, 14:12   Link #107
Tenchi Ryu
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Because they believe that disarming a Type-00 with it's long sword alone, and with an Imperial Royal Guard without any desire for victory is a valid and utter defeat?
If it means she drops the bitchy attitude and now goes after MC's penis....YUP
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:49   Link #108
DezoPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
That doesn't really matter. Yui's whole goal was to teach Yuuya the "superior" Japanese doctrine of close-quarter combat and maneuverability in a mock battle. Yuuya should have countered with an attack from distance (i.e., the American doctrine). Yuuya damaging Yui's TSF is not the point, all that matters is that Yui recognize that she would be dead.

Basically, as Indiana Jones teaches, Gun > Sword at more than a few meters.
Except she wasn't trying to teach Yuuya Japanese combat doctrine, she was trying to teach Yuuya Japanese piloting doctrine; there's a difference. In essence, she was trying to force him to learn how to adapt to the vagaries of the machine. Defeating him or not defeating him was never the point; the point was to present a situation where he would react instinctively and reflexively in tune with the Shiranui. If Yuuya stood off at range and fired at her, she'd have just ignored the supposed hits (which she probably could have dodged anyway, given that she was piloting a Takemikazuchi that she's an ace in, and he was piloting a mech that he at that point stank at), closed the range, and started beating on him anyway.

(It's analogous to throwing a kid into the deep end of a swimming pool to teach him how to swim. Basically, paddling with a kickboard in the shallow end wasn't doing it for Yuuya--maybe because his own issues were getting in the way, maybe because he simply didn't have the underlying training hours in Japanese-style machines, so Yui switched methods to something that would, theoretically, make him learn "under fire." Whether that actually makes sense as a teaching method is a different question, but in-universe it worked and Yui accomplished her goal.)
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Old 2012-07-30, 15:55   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Yui did not want to win, she wanted Yuuya to integrate the japanese mindset of handling japanese TSF, akin to a shock therapy. And she got it. Why are people still discussing about "lol she lost"?
I think it's because some people were predicting that Yui was going to kick his ass (based on Episode 4's preview for Episode 5). Nobody seriously argued the contrary. So it was a bit of a "lol" surprise when Yui didn't kick his ass, and when Yuuya technically "won".

Of course, it's fairly inconsequential given how Yui was really going easy on him.
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Old 2012-07-30, 21:30   Link #110
Destined_Fate
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Yui did kick his ass and humiliated his team. Beating him would have been easy, leaving him with the knowledge that she "Let" him get the win when she could have won at any time is more painful to a mans pride since he knows that if she fought seriously he would have been taken out in seconds like the rest of his squad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
She wasn't holding back with her sword and properly dueled him with it and acknowledged his potential. She's already admitted that he will be the best, only a matter of time.

Yuuya knew she didn't go all out, and with her machine which is better, she probably would beat him with being more familiar with her machine compared to him. But on a sword vs sword fight, she was properly dueling him, and he Disarmed her. She was planning on him learning to be one with the machine, the being disarmed part caught her off guard.

And to correct you, she didn't stop the fight technically, headquarters did once she was disarmed, they were satisfied with what they saw.
Yes she was holding back. She could have easily taken him out at any time instead she attacked him with blows even the other 3 could have blocked. Don't forget that in the group Yuuya is the least experienced and all he has is simulation work. The only reason Yui takes an interest in him is that he has talent though he's still far below her in skill.


And no in the sword vs sword fight it wasn't a proper duel, if it was than Yui would have ended it right away. The duel was to test Yuuya and to get him to understand what she was trying to teach him. Once she accomplished this she quit the battle since she wasn't there to see who was the better pilot since she already knows that she's better than Yuuya at the moment.


Headquarters asked her if she completed her objective, she hadn't they wouldn't have stopped her from continuing the fight.
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Old 2012-07-31, 05:19   Link #111
encia
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yui did kick his ass and humiliated his team. Beating him would have been easy, leaving him with the knowledge that she "Let" him get the win when she could have won at any time is more painful to a mans pride since he knows that if she fought seriously he would have been taken out in seconds like the rest of his squad.
The unexpected move was Yuuya's Yui's disarmament(after EP5:21:07) and on-the-field mastery of a particular action (EP5:20:16).

EP5:20:17, Yui's surprised reaction



EP5:21:07, Yui's finishing action with effort i.e. note Yui's facial expression.


Yuuya is not a rookie when it comes to close-quarters combat.

Spoiler for MLA wiki on F22A:


We know Yuuya is a F22 Raptor test pilot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Headquarters asked her if she completed her objective, she hadn't they wouldn't have stopped her from continuing the fight.
The trigger point was Yui's disarmament.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-31 at 05:42.
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Old 2012-07-31, 05:38   Link #112
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
The unexpected move was Yuuya's Yui's disarmament
Yuuya is not a rookie.



The trigger point was Yui's disarmament.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Yui didn't lose the battle. yuuya won this bout, its the undeniable truth and that yuuya himself is impressive for figuring that out in a pinch that like that.

I m just pointing out the fact that Yuuya would never be able to do that again to her at least until some point post series.
and yes i know that to be a fact.
i also know that yui would
Spoiler for Ln:



also headquarter asked her if she wanted to stop the fight. ( very debatable actually, for both sides of the coins.)

Last edited by Angrypokstick; 2012-07-31 at 06:28.
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Old 2012-07-31, 06:33   Link #113
encia
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Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing that Yui didn't lose the battle. yuuya won this bout, its the undeniable truth and that yuuya himself is impressive for figuring that out in a pinch that like that.

I m just pointing out the fact that Yuuya would never be able to do that again to her at least until some point post series.
and yes i know that to be a fact.
i also know that yui would
Spoiler for Ln:
Competing at the top level is not walk in the park e.g. number 2 can beat number 1, number 1 can beat number 2, number 3 can beat number 2 and 'etc'.
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Old 2012-07-31, 07:03   Link #114
Destined_Fate
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No I am arguing that Yuuya didn't win anything because Yui never even tried. Her intention was never to defeat him just teach him which she succeeded at. Thus Yui got what she wanted while Yuuya was forced to accept that Yui was right all along and that she could have defeated him and ended the battle at any time if she ever got serious.


And again even Yuuya says that throughout the entire battle Yui could have easily defeated him. His moment of disarming her means nothing because she could easily have retrieved her weapons no matter what he did if she desired to continue the fight.
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Old 2012-07-31, 07:47   Link #115
encia
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No I am arguing that Yuuya didn't win anything because Yui never even tried.
Yui tried at the end.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Her intention was never to defeat him just teach him which she succeeded at. Thus Yui got what she wanted while Yuuya was forced to accept that Yui was right all along and that she could have defeated him and ended the battle at any time if she ever got serious.


And again even Yuuya says that throughout the entire battle Yui could have easily defeated him. His moment of disarming her means nothing because she could easily have retrieved her weapons no matter what he did if she desired to continue the fight.
That's well and good, but Yui tried at the end i.e. one can't deny Yui's facial expression. In the end, She got her supersoldier and potential "yes dear" suitor.

If Yuuya and Yui gets married, I wonder who leads the family...

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-31 at 08:27.
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Old 2012-07-31, 09:22   Link #116
Destined_Fate
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No she didn't, had she tried Yuuya would be the one ground like Tarisa who is a far better close quarters fighter than he is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
She wasn't holding back with her sword and properly dueled him with it and acknowledged his potential. She's already admitted that he will be the best, only a matter of time.

Yuuya knew she didn't go all out, and with her machine which is better, she probably would beat him with being more familiar with her machine compared to him. But on a sword vs sword fight, she was properly dueling him, and he Disarmed her. She was planning on him learning to be one with the machine, the being disarmed part caught her off guard.

And to correct you, she didn't stop the fight technically, headquarters did once she was disarmed, they were satisfied with what they saw.
Yes she was holding back. All her clashes were unneeded since she could have easily taken him out with one stroke the entire time. It was to teach Yuuya a lesson not seriously fight him since she already knows he would lose and would learn nothing if she just kicked his ass and left.


Headquarters only stopped the fight because they assumed that Yui got what she wanted since they cut communications so she could teach Yuuya.
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:12   Link #117
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Yuuya is smart enough to know she was holding back. For the first part of the fight she was. But that little defensive maneuver signaled the taking it to the next level. If that's the case he (and even I) would be insulted if she threw the last part of the fight. She did not hold back.

I'm going to tell you something. Woulda, coulda don't mean jack when the bell is called. All your little she could have kicked his ass by picking up the sword after did not happen. I analysis things in the context of the show and and at face value as its presented. And the context was she taught him the lesson she wanted by pushing him to finally best her.
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:40   Link #118
Trajan
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Here's my read on the fight. Yui never went all out during the fight. It's pretty clear that she is holding back with Yuuya, and Yuuya himself even comments on this. Even when Yuuya disarms Yui at the end, Yui was still not fighting at her full potential. However, as noted above, it's clear from her reaction that she didn't expect Yuuya to be able to disarm her. So although it's obvious that Yui would have beaten Yuuya in a no-holds-barred duel, its also clear Yuuya surprised Yui with how quickly he was able to disarm her, even if she wasn't trying.

The more interesting question is what exactly Yui was trying to accomplish. Most posters are of the opinion that she was trying to teach Yuuya how to become one with his TSF and learn to pilot the Japanese way.

But is that really true? Yui was clearly surprised that Yuuya disarmed her; she didn't expect to lose, or at least to lose in that manner. So how did she see the fight ending? That's unclear. Did she expect Yuuya to slowly become more adjusted to CQC Japanese-style? Was she going to toy with him for a bit and then finish him? It seems like the writers had the ending in mind before they had the middle, and didn't really think through what Yui's goal was in challenging Yuuya.

What's interesting about Yui is that we're supposed to view her as a sympathetic character because we know about her background and are privy to her internal thoughts, but the writers fail to consider how the other characters (who don't know these things) view her.

As we know from this episode, her background is a bit of a mystery to the other pilots. What they do know is that she has made racially-charged comments to Yuuya and, in their minds, is treating him unfairly. They also just witnessed Yui dangerously attack Tarisa, with a high likelihood of injuring her, and go after Yuuya for no real reason.

To the pilots, it won't really matter that command approved the encounter. They will be pissed that an arrogant, racist officer could have killed one of their own. What should happen (and would happen) is that the pilots would refuse to fly until Yui was removed from the project, as they view her as a danger to themselves.
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:49   Link #119
YF19EX
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Lesson or not any real life commanding officer in charge of such a project would never let such a fight occur or even get that far. Damage to such equipment on purpose would probably warrant court marshal. But again I'lll take it in the context as an anime and work of fiction, such plot devices are used for character development. That doesn't mean that the reaction of the characters are not proper in how angry or aggressive they react to her intrusion. Yui like Yuuya has to grow herself. She is not perfect or end all be all. Making her a Mary Sue does nothing to develop the story.

Last edited by YF19EX; 2012-07-31 at 11:00.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:47   Link #120
DezoPenguin
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I really fail to understand why there's been so much debate on who "won" or who "lost" the fight when there wasn't actually a fight. Yui attempted to jump-start Yuuya's familiarity with the TSF, because having a lead test pilot who has trouble managing the machine due to his lack of familiarity with the underlying operational paradigm means that PROMINENCE is wasting time and money. Yuuya successfully made the leap and now "gets it" with regard to flying the Shiranui 2nd; proper test operations may now begin. Everybody wins, and Yuuya gets a few bonus character development moments.

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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
As we know from this episode, her background is a bit of a mystery to the other pilots. What they do know is that she has made racially-charged comments to Yuuya and, in their minds, is treating him unfairly. They also just witnessed Yui dangerously attack Tarisa, with a high likelihood of injuring her, and go after Yuuya for no real reason.

To the pilots, it won't really matter that command approved the encounter. They will be pissed that an arrogant, racist officer could have killed one of their own. What should happen (and would happen) is that the pilots would refuse to fly until Yui was removed from the project, as they view her as a danger to themselves.
On the contrary; Chobi will be pissed because Chobi is Chobi and hates to lose. VG and Stella will follow Yuuya's lead. Yuuya will be happy because (a) his piloting improved and (b) he disarmed Yui at the end.

(also see below)

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Originally Posted by YF19EX View Post
Lesson or not any real life commanding officer in charge of such a project would never let such a fight occur or even get that far. Damage to such equipment on purpose would probably warrant court marshal. But again I'lll take it in the context as an anime and work of fiction, such plot devices are used for character development. That doesn't mean that the reaction of the characters are not proper in how angry or aggressive they react to her intrusion. Yui like Yuuya has to grow herself. She is not perfect or end all be all. Making her a Mary Sue does nothing to develop the story.
What you're both overlooking is that close-quarters TSF combat is something that was already part of the training exercise, and that damage to the TSFs is obviously considered within acceptable parameters. How do we know this? It already happened in Episode 3. Twice, in fact: Cryska and Inia flew Chobi into the ground (nearly wiping out Yuuya's transport plane!) and Chobi was not grounded for her reckless flying and endangerment of noncombatants, and neither did anyone start sending strenuous protests to the Soviets for being unable to control their operatives. Then, in the Argos Flight exercise, Yuuya and Chobi (there she is again...) get into a close-combat exchange involving having their TSF's basically wrestle each other, suffering additional damage. Anything Yui did in this episode was no different--moreover, it was considerably different that Chobi's fight with the Soviets in Ep. 3 because Yui's operation was cleared with command in advance as part of a specific plan. Yes, the Argos Flight pilots didn't know about it, but the people setting up military training exercises aren't required to inform the trainees about every little part of the exercise or obtain their consent in advance.
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