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Old 2012-07-31, 02:35   Link #41
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Sorry but to say that all vagans are monsters and deserve to be exterminated based on the actions of a few bad apples is just stupid.

It's an issue with the writing, but you have to assume that the majority of them aren't advocating genocide. There's probably people with resentment towards the Earthnoids like Dean but to go from that to everyone being psychos....
Watch from 2:14.
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Old 2012-07-31, 02:42   Link #42
Raysoul
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It is as simple as this.

There are bad people in the Federation, but there are good and innocent ones.

There are bad Vagans, but there are several innocent ones like Lu.

Genociding the Vagans will gave victory to Earth, but the crimes of the Earth Federation will not be justified.

On the other hand, Vagans creating chaos to the Earth will just portray them as very very bad guys, stereotyping ALL Vagans as bad.

And if we are going for the "Good guys win" ending, all bad people must die/prosecuted, save all innocent Vagans and other not so bad pilots, and the Asuno family will be reunited.
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Old 2012-07-31, 09:02   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Sorry but to say that all vagans are monsters and deserve to be exterminated based on the actions of a few bad apples is just stupid.
That's an understatement.

Nobody said anything about exterminating but at the moment since the majority of the Vagans are gung-ho to the death ti's kinda hard to be sympathetic on their end.

And as others have pointed out, wars usually end when one side has kicked the crap out of the other one.

It's obvious that all 3 protagonists will end the war together but like I said in SEED for example Kira was only successful because there were moderate factions on both sides. This was shown throughout the show.

In AGE even after seeing the other Vagans, their mindset isn't that much more different than the military.

Regardless though it doesn't excuse them for the actions nor makes them sympathetic to begin with. I mean it's not like the Federation was oppressing them to begin with and we know that the Federation was offering peace treaties with them too. We also know that the reasons they failed was because Ezcelant was not interested in peace to begin with.

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It's an issue with the writing, but you have to assume that the majority of them aren't advocating genocide. There's probably people with resentment towards the Earthnoids like Dean but to go from that to everyone being psychos....
Okay it's bad when the audience has to start assuming these things because that's really bad writing on this part. It's really bad to start making things up to simply try to humanize a character when the show hasn't gone anywhere in that route.

Look at Mass Effect 3. Everything was suppose to be open to spectulations and assumptions and look where that took them.

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And if we are going for the "Good guys win" ending, all bad people must die/prosecuted, save all innocent Vagans and other not so bad pilots, and the Asuno family will be reunited.
Well obviously nobody is arguing about that.

What's mind boggling is the fact that some people are calling the Vagans angels and honorable despite what we've seen and their only argument to back it up is to simply "assume"
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:01   Link #44
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The problem, at least in my point of view is that there's very little left of that Flit from Gen 1 that wanted to become a savior. The same Flit that spared Desil and didn't shoot Gera Zoi even when he taunted him. That Flit was replaced with this guy who is just consumed by hatred.

I get that they wanted to have Kio be the savior that will save the Earth and the Vagans from the guy they've mistakenly placed their faith on and has betrayed them, but was it really necessary to have Flit become this thing he's become?
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:47   Link #45
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The problem, at least in my point of view is that there's very little left of that Flit from Gen 1 that wanted to become a savior. The same Flit that spared Desil and didn't shoot Gera Zoi even when he taunted him. That Flit was replaced with this guy who is just consumed by hatred.

I get that they wanted to have Kio be the savior that will save the Earth and the Vagans from the guy they've mistakenly placed their faith on and has betrayed them, but was it really necessary to have Flit become this thing he's become?
Despite having this hatred for Vagans, Flit still is on the route of his own "saviour" goal. Only his endgame is the extermination of Vagans. Flit's arc should have shown how black and white Flit sees this war, and this has not changed. Add, too, that it was further fueled by his losses throughout the years.
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Old 2012-07-31, 14:48   Link #46
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But then he wouldn't be a savior, he'd be a mass murderer.

I also don't see people like Natora and Seric going along with him.
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:05   Link #47
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But then he wouldn't be a savior, he'd be a mass murderer.
The show did point out to Flit, in form of that former Prime Minister, how the two cannot be put together. But Flit still believed in this, as shown in the recent episodes. He shaped up Kio to be the saviour, and the endgame Flit wants is the extermination of Vagans.
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Old 2012-08-01, 02:20   Link #48
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I don't get why people even begin to think as narrow minded as "All of this side being bad". Civilians on both sides do not deserve to be killed, whether vagan or earth. That should be obvious from the start. Now of course civilians will resent one another because they have different and limited understandings of the other side.

Vagan sees earth and they want a beautiful world because theirs is not. They resent Earth for leaving them on a botched colonization, but that was the FEDERATION'S fault, not the general populace. This is a common mistake many people make, which is blaming people in place of a governing body. Never, ever, consider the populace evil, for what their government does. This is like saying "I am evil", because my government bombed Japan with nukes over 60 years ago.

You can see Flit has a strong bias against vagan's because they killed many precious to him, and the only thing flit experienced from Vagan was a genocide against his own people. Kio, now that he has seen both sides, has a much fuller understanding of both sides, and is probably much more understanding than his grandfather flit, who still considers vagan's as evil aliens. "No human could do such a thing" mentality.

Now what I don't get... Is why do the Vagan resort to mass genocide of innocent civilians, when in theory, they shouldn't need to resort to violence in the first place. Couldn't they just migrate back to earth? This is what makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Old 2012-08-01, 02:30   Link #49
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The problem, at least in my point of view is that there's very little left of that Flit from Gen 1 that wanted to become a savior. The same Flit that spared Desil and didn't shoot Gera Zoi even when he taunted him. That Flit was replaced with this guy who is just consumed by hatred.

I get that they wanted to have Kio be the savior that will save the Earth and the Vagans from the guy they've mistakenly placed their faith on and has betrayed them, but was it really necessary to have Flit become this thing he's become?
Flit's world view against Vagan is completely understandable. It's also nice to see him like this, because it helps to show how people become jaded, while you see how much different Kio is from flit as far as how they consider Vagan. I think Flit Vs Kio in world outlook, is meant to be a comparison between two different outlooks. Kio, who is fully immersed in Vagan culture, and Flit, who hates Vagan to no end.
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Old 2012-08-01, 03:22   Link #50
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Vagan sees earth and they want a beautiful world because theirs is not. They resent Earth for leaving them on a botched colonization, but that was the FEDERATION'S fault, not the general populace. This is a common mistake many people make, which is blaming people in place of a governing body. Never, ever, consider the populace evil, for what their government does. This is like saying "I am evil", because my government bombed Japan with nukes over 60 years ago.
Nobody takes power it is given to them by the rest of us because we are either too stupid or afraid to do anything. They did it because it is what they wanted afterwards like children who ate too much candy point it was them... Always them.

Ezelcant made promises the Vegans gave him the power he wanted. So don't say Vegan civilians are blameless.

We are still guilt tripping the Germans and Japanese for what they did.
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Old 2012-08-01, 19:06   Link #51
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Stage 3 of Genocide - DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder... Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable.

7 EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi)
Taken from http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocid...ofgenocide.htm

Flit Asuno has already dehumanized the Vagans and is calling for their extermination at every turn, what else do you people need to condemn that?
revenge is not a valid justification genocide, even mutual genocide.

I find the argument that he hasn't actually started the extermination so we shouldn't condemn it quite appalling. It's no wonder so many genocides have happened throughout history if the majority of people think like that.

Hate speech is not OK, ignoring it and giving the people using it a pass is wrong.
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Old 2012-08-01, 19:51   Link #52
ReddyRedWolf
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Revolutionist you should change your user name to Revisionist because that is what you've been doing since the start.

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I don't think he's the "final" villain, there's just too many hints that suggest this might just be a mask he's put on but not necessarily his true nature. The fat guy is more final boss material IMO, he's a douche bag because he is, and that fat mobile suit is quite powerful. I can see a coup d'tat and him offing Ezelcant...
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I wouldn't say Ezelcant is Evil, he's more broken than anything. We only know his plan at the current point in time of the series, but I bet it went through stages. He may have been after revenge at one point, or genuinely trying to lead his people back to Earth but then he lost faith in humanity and came up to the conclusion that the only way to change humanity was through such a radical plan.

Like the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

The guy is not a monster, but he is definitely on the wrong track. I think they were trying to show this aspect with the flashback and him not finishing Kio off and being distraught.

His plan is nothing new though, it's actually very similar to the Destiny plan, with hints of Master Asia and Treize.
You are stubborn with your argumentation when presented the facts. When it became untenable defending Ezelcant you targeted Flit's character knowing full well despite his opinion he hasn't done one single atrocity.

You are wrong in your character analysis and making disproportionate demonetization of Flit.
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Old 2012-08-01, 20:38   Link #53
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Hey, Reddy. Instead of constantly saying Revolutionist has been defending Ezelcant, which I certainly don't remember, why don't you dig up some of his old posts to prove it? Because right now all you're doing is advocating genocide in an indirect way.

And if Flit gets his wish and blows up the Luna base next episode I'm going to laugh so hard at everyone's reactions.
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Old 2012-08-01, 20:53   Link #54
Revolutionist
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Revolutionist you should change your user name to Revisionist because that is what you've been doing since the start.





You are stubborn with your argumentation when presented the facts. When it became untenable defending Ezelcant you targeted Flit's character knowing full well despite his opinion he hasn't done one single atrocity.

You are wrong in your character analysis and making disproportionate demonetization of Flit.
Love how you quoted me and didn't even bother to read what I said much less understand it.

" the path to hell is paved with good intentions. "

All I said is that his ultimate goal is not evil because he wanted peace, but how he plans to get there is wrong. That's why I cited Treize and Master Asia as examples.
Spoiler for wing/g:
That's my entire point which you seem to not be able to get your head around. If you want to further discuss Ezelcant, get a thread for it. I'll be more than happy to dismantle your "facts" on there.

My main point is that hate speech is wrong. Whether Flit actually starts murdering Vagans or not is irrelevant, the fact is so far right now he has openly dehumanized them, and called for their extermination on several occasions. Some things you just don't say, advocating genocide, promoting racism, discrimination of any type, those things are wrong and morally unacceptable. If you think I'm going to change my stance on that you are very mistaken.

I don't even know why you're on this board tbh. Gundam has always been about empathy and caring for your fellow human beings, and you have made it obvious you don't care about that stuff since you are clearly defending hate speech.
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Old 2012-08-01, 20:56   Link #55
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Hey, Reddy. Instead of constantly saying Revolutionist has been defending Ezelcant, which I certainly don't remember, why don't you dig up some of his old posts to prove it? Because right now all you're doing is advocating genocide in an indirect way.
Nobody is advocating genocide don't you get it. Revolutionist is wrong in his analysis as every time Flit has a defenseless Vegan in front of him is spares them.

Yes he chickens out.

Also the Vegan's themselves are to blame for their current condition and the war. They gave power to a lunatic as his words were pretty.

Remember Zeheart tried to kill Asemu lest he have a conscience and become the mask.

Fram can't back down as there have been too much blood spilled already.

Deen joins the military and believes Earthers are laughing at their conditions. When that is not the case. In fact years before a peace offer was given.

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And if Flit gets his wish and blows up the Luna base next episode I'm going to laugh so hard at everyone's reactions.
Luna base is military target. Either the Federation gets it, looses it or nobody can have it.

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My main point is that hate speech is wrong. Whether Flit actually starts murdering Vagans or not is irrelevant, the fact is so far right now he has openly dehumanized them, and called for their extermination on several occasions. Some things you just don't say, advocating genocide, promoting racism, discrimination of any type, those things are wrong and morally unacceptable. If you think I'm going to change my stance on that you are very mistaken.
Well Flit dehumanizes Vegans cause as in own words not acting as human and find it easy to just kill people.

How many of us are defending the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese military for the atrocities we did?

You forget once again Vegan is not a race but a sovereign state. Flit said to Kio that Ezelcant and the Vegans that are following him must be defeated.

If Vegan ceases as a state then Vegans are no more. Because they are culturally absorbed with the rest of humanity.
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Old 2012-08-01, 21:11   Link #56
Gomenasai
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Nobody takes power it is given to them by the rest of us because we are either too stupid or afraid to do anything. They did it because it is what they wanted afterwards like children who ate too much candy point it was them... Always them.

Ezelcant made promises the Vegans gave him the power he wanted. So don't say Vegan civilians are blameless.

We are still guilt tripping the Germans and Japanese for what they did.
So you are saying the populace is partly to blame. Maybe so, but they are still civilians. No civilian mass has ever done anything that world warrant genocide. They may make collectively stupid decisions, but the individuals themselves can not be labeled with a mark of death just because of the place they are born.

Also, doesn't it seem obvious that Ezelcant would make it to power? I was talking bout perception in my post, and from the people's perspective, it seems completely logical and rational to want to go back to earth. For their time and place, Ezelcant IS the will of the people. However, I doubt many of the citizens asked for a mass genocide of the other side. They hardly know anything about the atrocities that their military commits.

A: I want to go to earth and get away from these dangerous rays.
B: Give me power, and I will give you a better life on earth.
A: Alright. Sounds reasonable.
B: Now to achieve our goal, I'm going to murder civilians
A: "Ignorant of what's actually happening, because governments always lie or tell half truths".

When it comes down to it, you just can't put all the blame on citizens, who are mostly concerned about simple day to day living.


About the "Giving Japanese/Germans a hard time. Yes, but only idiots do this. I read a bunch ignorant Americans saying that the Japanese got what they deserved with the Tsunami/Earthquake, because it was "revenge" for Pearl Harbor. Only idiots cling on to sentiments like that. There is no "we" in the guilt tripping. It is "them", because it's certainly not me.

Last edited by Gomenasai; 2012-08-01 at 21:24.
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Old 2012-08-01, 21:18   Link #57
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So you are saying the populace is partly to blame. Maybe so, but they are still civilians. No civilian mass has ever done anything that world warrant genocide. They may make collectively stupid decisions, but the individuals themselves can not be labeled with a mark of death just because of the place they are born.

Also, doesn't it seem obvious that Ezelcant would make it to power? I was talking bout perception in my post, and from the people's perspective, it seems completely logical and rational to want to go back to earth. For their time and place, Ezelcant IS the will of the people. However, I doubt many of the citizens asked for a mass genocide of the other side. They hardly know anything about the atrocities that their military commits.

A: I want to go to earth and get away from mars Rays.
B: Give me power, and I will give you a better life on earth.
A: Alright.
B: Now to achieve our goal, I'm going to murder civilians
A: "Ignorant of what's actually happening, because governments always lie or tell half truths"
By pissing everybody off killing civilians left and right. Really logical and rational. When they can just go there and announce to the media about the Mars colonization cover up.

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About the "Giving Japanese/Germans a hard time. Yes, but only idiots do this. I read a bunch ignorant Americans saying that the Japanese got what they deserved with the Tsunami/Earthquake, because it was "revenge" for Pearl Harbor. Only idiots cling on to sentiments like that. There is no "we" in the guilt tripping. It is "them", because it's certainly not me.
I'm not an American. The Germans and Japanese had their constitution written for them so they wont be a threat anymore.

Germany and Austria are still sensitive about the Nazi's that they are outlawed in media. Nazi war criminals are still being hunted down. Germany part of NATO won't be part of any aggressive warfare like Libya.

Japan doesn't have a a proper military just a Self Defense force. Though there are few and far between nationalists that romanticize Japan's role in WWII. Some denying the atrocities.

What was done was break the cultural mindsets that led them on a path of conquest.

The Federation will have to do that as well. Even occupy Vegan colonies. Also Vegan colonies are acceptable targets since there is a infrastructure for the Vegan military in them. It is harsh but there is bound to be collateral damage as long this war continues and if the Federation stops going on the defensive. A little fear for their own safety will change minds.

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2012-08-01 at 21:51.
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Old 2012-08-01, 21:37   Link #58
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"I'll exterminate the Vagans. Every last one of them!"

That's something Flit said, and that's basically genocide he's talking about. Yet you're basically saying its okay for him to go about spouting that stuff and coercing people into blowing the holy hell out of them. Presumably because he's a protagonist in the story.

News flash: Being the protagonist doesn't automatically make your views "correct". Flit wants genocide of the Vagans: he's said this repeatedly and has begun making actions to reach this goal and people don't like it, both in-universe (Kio, Asem, Natora) and out. That's a FACT. I could go through all of the episodes and bring up specific quotes from him concerning such genocidal views if you want. So get it through your head: what Flit wants is a terrible thing. No one but you is saying it's right (which is basically what you're doing since you keep saying everyone who says otherwise is wrong). No one's saying what the Vagans are doing is right either. Flit's goal of killing all the Vagans is inherently wrong. The Vagans' goal of killing all the Earthers so they can have Earth to themselves is wrong. Ezelcant's goal of killing everyone who doesn't fit into his ideal utopia is wrong.
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Old 2012-08-01, 22:09   Link #59
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Rising Dragon Flit is a fictional character not a real person. Being one of the protagonists he is bound to have character development. The point is guys like Revolutionist are blowing it out of proportion as we've never seen Flit kill yet in Cold Blood.

He spared Decil, he couldn't shoot Geera Zoi, he tried to capture a Vegan alive, he told Kio not to go after Shanalua.

If Flit is the murderous maniac you portray him to be show proof he did. Flit's actions speak louder than his words.
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Old 2012-08-01, 22:21   Link #60
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A.k.a. "I'm going to keep supporting Flit despite the fact he wants something bad up until he actually does something bad", right?

No one's saying that Flit is a murderous maniac. We're saying what he wants is inherently wrong. There is a difference, but you refuse to see that we're making a distinction of that difference.

And now that you mention it, where's this bull about him trying to capture a live Vagan? He didn't say a damn thing about the Vagan he saved Max from in episode 24, or anything about the Vagan in episode 25. Hell, the only one whose shown any kind of initiative in trying to capture a Vagan soldier is Asem.
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