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Old 2012-07-31, 19:21   Link #301
VezSketch
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Have you also noticed this drifted entirely off what was being talked about? Not that I mind, but you're kind of proving my point.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:46   Link #302
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Which wasn't relevant to what was being talked about in the first place, that's my point.
What Aki was talking about back here was Nanoha's most amazing feats in StrikerS being attributed to the dangerous Blaster system, correct? Then I pointed out that SLB is of a similar dangerous magic category.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
So? You can easily attribute that to the insanity behind the power of the attack, just like when Teana dismissed Nanoha being an AAA rank mage as stupid rumors. Their reaction is meaningless, no idea why you're herping on it.
Because it's not just the power, they were actually astonished by the type of attack. Big difference there, as it specifies that SLB is different from usual attacks, and that difference is what is focused on. Caro even specifically mentions the strain it causes.

Though you are right, re-watching the episode, they also mention that Excellion Mode used in A's ignores the limit of the body and generates magic beyond her limit.

Which, while busting my former argument on SLB being the main perpetrator, does offer support to Aki that most of Nanoha's biggest accomplishments are when she uses dangerous magic or magitech, and stretches that out to... well, every single season so far.

S1? SLB, stretched to be dangerous.

A's? Excellion Mode, stretched to be dangerous.

Strikers? Blaster Mode, stretched to be dangerous.

Aki was talking about StrikerS, yes, but Nanoha goes over her limits with dangerous spells or tech in every season.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:54   Link #303
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In fact, so far the only time she hasn't used dangerous magic/magitek is Force. I'm sure Aki will quote this otherwise to try and prove me wrong, so I'll go ahead and say that the Fortress and Strike Cannon armaments are not inherently dangerous to the user, so don't even bother trying to argue otherwise.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:59   Link #304
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Have you also noticed this drifted entirely off what was being talked about? Not that I mind, but you're kind of proving my point.
Yeah, sure, try to pin it all on me. But you're just as much a part of where we are now as I am.
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Old 2012-07-31, 20:07   Link #305
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
What Aki was talking about back here was Nanoha's most amazing feats in StrikerS being attributed to the dangerous Blaster system, correct? Then I pointed out that SLB is of a similar dangerous magic category.
Which weren't mentioned.

Quote:
Because it's not just the power, they were actually astonished by the type of attack. Big difference there, as it specifies that SLB is different from usual attacks, and that difference is what is focused on. Caro even specifically mentions the strain it causes.
You're right there and I'm not denying that. Haven't watched that awhile. Now I'm just saying you were overestimating the strain. We can only prove Nanoha has used SLB four times before her accident. She then used Exelion Buster, 5 Divine Busters, and 5 SLB's while using the blaster system in Exceed Mode and she's fine after awhile in StrikerS. That's not to mention the other spells she used that day.

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Though you are right, re-watching the episode, they also mention that Excellion Mode used in A's ignores the limit of the body and generates magic beyond her limit.
Pretty much.

Quote:
Which, while busting my former argument on SLB being the main perpetrator, does offer support to Aki that most of Nanoha's biggest accomplishments are when she uses dangerous magic or magitech, and stretches that out to... well, every single season so far.

S1? SLB, stretched to be dangerous.

A's? Excellion Mode, stretched to be dangerous.

Strikers? Blaster Mode, stretched to be dangerous.

Aki was talking about StrikerS, yes, but Nanoha goes over her limits with dangerous spells or tech in every season.
This is all true, but that wasn't the point. The point was Nanoha in StrikerS is a lot more powerful than she was in A's. That's something they can be agreed upon, isn't it? StrikerS SLB > A's SLB+ =< StrikerS Exelion Buster > A's SLB > A's Exelion Buster.

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Old 2012-08-01, 00:37   Link #306
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Wow, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. That attack was specifically cast because of it wouldn't be effected by anti magic measures ... it was purely physical. And it wasn't an energy slash attack, occam's razor and all. You also have no evidence of that. And there's also the fact Cypha says she can easily cut through it.
The attack itself can't be affected by Anti-Magic but the casting can, Cypha attacked with an energy slash attack as the image of her attack on the iceberg mountain depicted the magic was gathering the ice so the thing started to fall appart but Hayate turned the tables on Cypha by recasting the spell faster than Cypha can destroy it. The proof Cypha used an energy slash, aside of the depiction of an obvious stream of energy flying out of her sword, lay in the fact she couldn't even performed such a feat otherwise. The size of her blade can't chop a mountain in half (no matter how strong she is) without some kind of extension, Cypha herself explained how to mold eclipse energy to perform seemingly impossible attacks after defeating Quinn on Ch. 22 and showed to be pretty skilled with said ability ....her Divider have the specific viralizing ability of being able to weaken hard surfaces to make cuts easier.

By the way, enlight me a bit, what's occam's razor o.o?

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In fact, so far the only time she hasn't used dangerous magic/magitek is Force. I'm sure Aki will quote this otherwise to try and prove me wrong, so I'll go ahead and say that the Fortress and Strike Cannon armaments are not inherently dangerous to the user, so don't even bother trying to argue otherwise.
Oh, don't worry about that, i'm aware of the non-threatening nature of the Strike Cannon/Fortress combo. It makes sense since such weapons are noticeably weaker than Blaster System and Exceed Mode as the range and destructive power achived by Nanoha during her fights in FORCE are lower than what has been shown in past season. I think it's almost granted AEC-Equipements are weaker than the old devices generally speaking while their only advantage is being able to fight against Anti-Magic.

VerzSketck, if you really want to be picky about what endangered Nanoha's life, you're ringht on something: SLB wasn't the only reason. In fact, it was a combination of several factors. Starlight Breaker was one, the cartridge system was another, her continuous abuse of all-day training with Raising Heart was yet another one. The excesses she did in battle and the abuse of her busy lifestyle goaded her to the path of self destruction and limited her capabilities in the future xDU
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Old 2012-08-01, 03:08   Link #307
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

"Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions.

...

The razor asserts that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power."
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Old 2012-08-01, 06:53   Link #308
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The attack itself can't be affected by Anti-Magic but the casting can, Cypha attacked with an energy slash attack as the image of her attack on the iceberg mountain depicted the magic was gathering the ice so the thing started to fall appart but Hayate turned the tables on Cypha by recasting the spell faster than Cypha can destroy it.
You're wrong. That isn't what happened at all, you're once again demonstrating what I said before. The casting was already done and all Cypha did was destroy the iceberg with destructive power, the ice was already in bits before Hayate made another one. I'm really starting to have little patience with you.

Quote:
The proof Cypha used an energy slash, aside of the depiction of an obvious stream of energy flying out of her sword, lay in the fact she couldn't even performed such a feat otherwise.
Wrong, that's how slashes are drawn in Force. There's no obvious stream of energy. And the newly conjured iceberg was far bigger, you can't actually deny what we see on panel to help your argument because she didn't destroy the second one.

Quote:
The size of her blade can't chop a mountain in half (no matter how strong she is) without some kind of extension, Cypha herself explained how to mold eclipse energy to perform seemingly impossible attacks after defeating Quinn on Ch. 22 and showed to be pretty skilled with said ability ....her Divider have the specific viralizing ability of being able to weaken hard surfaces to make cuts easier.
And now you're ignoring what actually happens on panel because you somehow think it would be impossible, so she definitely couldn't have cut it and had to use an energy slash. Get real. It's fiction and your opinion doesn't matter, for one. Terrible basis for an argument.

Her viralizing ability has to do with her own body not her divider, Aki. Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about.

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Yeah, sure, try to pin it all on me. But you're just as much a part of where we are now as I am.
Nope, I'm only a victim here.
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Old 2012-08-01, 08:06   Link #309
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nope, I'm only a victim here.
It takes two to tango, Vez. I can't steer a topic away on my own. While I was the one who shifted focus on SLB being damaging, You were the first to start the whole "but was it really SLB or just her general magic?" You're as guilty as I am.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Which weren't mentioned.
Technically, it was. That Excellion Buster you mentioned here? Fired while boosted with the Blaster system. But regardless of your mention, in Aki's it was. His point was that Nanoha pushed herself beyond limits with Blaster, you pointed out you didn't mention blaster, I pointed out that SLB falls in a similar category of pushing herself beyond limits.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
You're right there and I'm not denying that. Haven't watched that awhile. Now I'm just saying you were overestimating the strain. We can only prove Nanoha has used SLB four times before her accident. She then used Exelion Buster, 5 Divine Busters, and 5 SLB's while using the blaster system in Exceed Mode and she's fine after awhile in StrikerS. That's not to mention the other spells she used that day.
Actually, according to the sound stages Nanoha suffered permanent damage from the blaster system usage. Losing 8% of her maximum power. In that respect, blaster is far worse than SLB.

But back to the topic of SLB, occam's razor applies here. As you said, we can only proved she used it four times before her accident, yet it is stressed in multiple sources to be a technique that's damaging to the body. It is, combined with Excellion Mode which has a similar description, and the fact the episode in StrikerS specifically uses these two as examples for the reason, whereas they don't mention her daily routine at all, the most obvious reason for her slip.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This is all true, but that wasn't the point. The point was Nanoha in StrikerS is a lot more powerful than she was in A's. That's something they can be agreed upon, isn't it?
Well, yes. S-rank Nanoha > AAA rank Nanoha. You don't even need to pull out attack examples for that.
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Old 2012-08-01, 09:00   Link #310
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It takes two to tango, Vez. I can't steer a topic away on my own. While I was the one who shifted focus on SLB being damaging, You were the first to start the whole "but was it really SLB or just her general magic?" You're as guilty as I am.
Either you're incredibly stiff or you can't recognize when someone is joking. You should chill out.

Quote:
Technically, it was. That Excellion Buster you mentioned here? Fired while boosted with the Blaster system. But regardless of your mention, in Aki's it was. His point was that Nanoha pushed herself beyond limits with Blaster, you pointed out you didn't mention blaster, I pointed out that SLB falls in a similar category of pushing herself beyond limits.
Err, she matched Dieci's blast before using the blaster system to boost EB. When she did, she overcame the blast - something I didn't mention. So, again, wrong.

Quote:
Actually, according to the sound stages Nanoha suffered permanent damage from the blaster system usage. Losing 8% of her maximum power. In that respect, blaster is far worse than SLB.
Oh, really? Mind giving me a link to that? That's not really much. Losing that amount of power and being fine after awhile > what happened pre-StrikerS.

Quote:
But back to the topic of SLB, occam's razor applies here. As you said, we can only proved she used it four times before her accident, yet it is stressed in multiple sources to be a technique that's damaging to the body. It is, combined with Excellion Mode which has a similar description, and the fact the episode in StrikerS specifically uses these two as examples for the reason, whereas they don't mention her daily routine at all, the most obvious reason for her slip.
Uh huh, not really because both interpretations are equally valid here and the amount of assumptions are the same (not really in your case since the entire point of teaching Teana a lesson is because she was overextending herself, not using attacks that would endanger her life). Clearly SLB and Exelion Mode were apart of the problem, I don't even see your point here since we already agreed on this.

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Well, yes. S-rank Nanoha > AAA rank Nanoha. You don't even need to pull out attack examples for that.
Yet Aki claimed otherwise.

Nanoha's S+ Rank.
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Old 2012-08-01, 09:53   Link #311
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Either you're incredibly stiff or you can't recognize when someone is joking. You should chill out.
Ah, but that would mean I would have to assume you were joking instead of reading what you actually wrote, which was something you asked me not to do.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Err, she matched Dieci's blast before using the blaster system to boost EB. When she did, she overcame the blast - something I didn't mention. So, again, wrong.
Hmm, true. I'd forgotten about that.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Oh, really? Mind giving me a link to that? That's not really much. Losing that amount of power and being fine after awhile > what happened pre-StrikerS.
Sure. Here you go, it's Track 20 of this list.

Losing 8% of your magical power and being advised by the doctor to take a complete rest for 2 to 3 years in order to recover is not what I'd call "being fine after a while." And even then had she listened to Shamal's advice they still weren't sure if a complete rest would recover that loss. For someone like Nanoha, 8% power loss is actually quite a bit.

As for it being less than what happened pre-strikers, while it's details are vague, what was clearly described in StrikerS that Nanoha's body was weakened to the point where she couldn't react to a drone ambush. The ambush itself was what resulted in most of the injury.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Uh huh, not really because both interpretations are equally valid here and the amount of assumptions are the same (not really in your case since the entire point of teaching Teana a lesson is because she was overextending herself, not using attacks that would endanger her life). Clearly SLB and Exelion Mode were apart of the problem, I don't even see your point here since we already agreed on this.
Blar, no matter what I try to type here it just comes of as one giant clusterfuck of twisting arguments. I'll just agree with "both interpretations are equally valid" and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yet Aki claimed otherwise.

Nanoha's S+ Rank.
To be specific, Aki claimed that it was implied Nanoha's body got weaker post-accident. Body and magic strength are not necessarily always related. Case in point: Precia. Weak body, on her deathbed even, but still enough magic to school the TSAB forces send to arrest her. Which in Nanoha's case is still plausible, if theoretical and without evidence to back it up (Fate being a worrywart is nothing new, after all).

Her loss of power post-strikers however, is an undeniable fact.
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Old 2012-08-01, 10:21   Link #312
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
You're wrong. That isn't what happened at all, you're once again demonstrating what I said before. The casting was already done and all Cypha did was destroy the iceberg with destructive power, the ice was already in bits before Hayate made another one. I'm really starting to have little patience with you.
Exactly, Cypha destroyed the iceboerg with POWER coming out of her divider (Ch. 13, page 19) and by the way the casting was still ongoing because there was a ring of magic around the iceberg when Cypha attacked and, oh yeah, the entire thing was still floating in the air, i doubt giant mountains of ice can float upside down on their own unless i missed that class on high school xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Wrong, that's how slashes are drawn in Force. There's no obvious stream of energy. And the newly conjured iceberg was far bigger, you can't actually deny what we see on panel to help your argument because she didn't destroy the second one.
Look at the scene again the magnitude of what Cypha did looks very similar to the power surrounding Signum's Sturmfalken during her fight against Nanoha at the end of StrikerS, clearly a feat of power instead of just mere strenght, so yeah, the "obvious stream of energy" is right there xDU

About the second iceberg it was actually several smaller fragments gathering ontop of Fortis's head. Cypha didn't destroyed it because the spell reacted faster than che could do it, it's easy to criticize time flow on a manga where images are still xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
And now you're ignoring what actually happens on panel because you somehow think it would be impossible, so she definitely couldn't have cut it and had to use an energy slash. Get real. It's fiction and your opinion doesn't matter, for one. Terrible basis for an argument.
Even if it doesn't matter i have the rights to express what i think about the contents of the chapter and i find your claims of Cypha slicing a mountain dubious becuse there's a lot of proof against it. No one has achieved such a feat in the Nanoha canon before, it's physically impossible due to size difference (she should be able to slice a small chunk of the mountain at the very best with an un-powered slash) }, Cypha herself explained the truth behind the dynamic of Eclipse powered blade attacks on Ch. 22, and, oh yeah, none of Cypha's previous attack slahes had such a big "obvious stream of energy" xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Her viralizing ability has to do with her own body not her divider, Aki. Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about.
Actually the NEXT design of her Divider specifically mentioned such ability to work very well trough her Divider so, once again, i held evidence to support my case xD

So yeah, i perfectly know what i'm talking about, if you want to dismatle my argument bring proof xD
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Old 2012-08-01, 10:45   Link #313
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Exactly, Cypha destroyed the iceboerg with POWER coming out of her divider (Ch. 13, page 19) and by the way the casting was still ongoing because there was a ring of magic around the iceberg when Cypha attacked and, oh yeah, the entire thing was still floating in the air, i doubt giant mountains of ice can float upside down on their own unless i missed that class on high school xDU
She was keeping it afloat with that ring of magic, she was done casting it. Destructive power doesn't exactly mean energy slashes/blasts/etc. ....

Quote:
Look at the scene again the magnitude of what Cypha did looks very similar to the power surrounding Signum's Sturmfalken during her fight against Nanoha at the end of StrikerS, clearly a feat of power instead of just mere strenght, so yeah, the "obvious stream of energy" is right there xDU
This isn't even an argument, it's just your interpretation of visual style.

Quote:
About the second iceberg it was actually several smaller fragments gathering ontop of Fortis's head. Cypha didn't destroyed it because the spell reacted faster than che could do it, it's easy to criticize time flow on a manga where images are still xDU
What are you even talking about here? It has nothing to do with what Cypha actually did, which is shown for you. Hayate had to cast it again with the Blaster System ...

Quote:
Even if it doesn't matter i have the rights to express what i think about the contents of the chapter
Yes, that's true, but it's really annoying since I've already had this argument previously with you and won it. Now this is just you repeating yourself (saying things I've already called you wrong on) and misconstruing actual things we see on panel to further your argument. There's only so much you can stomach. I'm just tempted to just copy/paste what I said previously. Arguments don't end with you because you never concede, even when you're wrong. I'm not in the mood for that.

Quote:
and i find your claims of Cypha slicing a mountain dubious becuse there's a lot of proof against it. No one has achieved such a feat in the Nanoha canon before, it's physically impossible due to size difference (she should be able to slice a small chunk of the mountain at the very best with an un-powered slash) }, Cypha herself explained the truth behind the dynamic of Eclipse powered blade attacks on Ch. 22, and, oh yeah, none of Cypha's previous attack slahes had such a big "obvious stream of energy" xD
Actually, there are more impressive physical feats in Nanoha, so get off that. The size difference is irrelevant, it's fiction. That is not an argument against what we actually see happen. And you can't prove Cypha used what she described in chapter 22, which I've read. Slashes in Force have the same look, I've even provided visual evidence of this when you brought this up before.

Quote:
Actually the NEXT design of her Divider specifically mentioned such ability to work very well trough her Divider so, once again, i held evidence to support my case xD
Give me a link, I'm not looking for it.

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So yeah, i perfectly know what i'm talking about, if you want to dismatle my argument bring proof xD
No, you don't.
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Old 2012-08-01, 10:57   Link #314
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
She was keeping it afloat with that ring of magic, she was done casting it. Destructive power doesn't exactly mean energy slashes/blasts/etc. ...
And? It doesn't change my argument one bit. Cypha used a powered slash to cut trough the thing and her viralizing ability gives her an advantage xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This isn't even an argument, it's just your interpretation of visual style.
Visual style have the intention of giving the readers a tool to interpret the conditions of what's happening on-panel my friend. Unless the contrary is stated, Cypha used an EC powered slash.

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What are you even talking about here?
The nature of the "second iceberg" with was casted in a "Phalanx Shift" formation made of several smaller icebergs pointed all towards the Esquad Huckebein.

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Yes, that's true, but it's really annoying since I've already had this argument previously with you and won it.
Lol no, you only gives complains, not proof, you don't "win" an argument with that, people can call me a fool or being rude at me all they want but my argument holds ground unless solid evidence is put against it, which i haven't saw xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Now this is just you repeating yourself (saying things I've already called you wrong on) and misconstruing actual things we see on panel to further your argument.
I'm only enriching my standpoint with further evidence and explanation at your request xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Actually, there are more impressive physical feats in Nanoha, so get off that. The size difference is irrelevant, it's fiction. That is not an argument against what we actually see happen. And you can't prove Cypha used what she described in chapter 22, which I've read. Slashes in Force have the same look, I've even provided visual evidence of this when you brought this up before.
Name one, one physical feat in Nanoha more impressive than slicing an ice mountain and that was achieved without any kind of magical/eclipse support whatsoever, i want to see a single one xD

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Give me a link, I'm not looking for it.
Link to manga stuff are forbbiden my friend, but it's NEXT 18 if you're curious xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
No, you don't.
Lol, that's not proof xD
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:55   Link #315
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Visual style have the intention of giving the readers a tool to interpret the conditions of what's happening on-panel my friend. Unless the contrary is stated, Cypha used an EC powered slash.
You're comparing it to an entirely different method of attack, drawing a comparison between the two because they look similar to YOU, and then parroting it as proof of something. That's not how it works.

That "obvious energy slash" is a constant visual effect among attacks drawn in the manga. It's artistic license, stop using it as an argument.

This is how the iceberg looked when Cypha cut it, you're wrong.

When I said I won this argument previously, I meant on another forum but I misplaced that with another argument we had about Signum and Cypha and it was with someone else on the forum ..... still pretty annoying, though.

Quote:
Name one, one physical feat in Nanoha more impressive than slicing an ice mountain and that was achieved without any kind of magical/eclipse support whatsoever, i want to see a single one xD
Uh, their physical power is fueled by magic, eclipse, whatever energy the combat cyborgs use, etc. That's where all their power comes from. Reinforce punching through Nanoha's round shield, Fate sending out a massive shockwave, the kinetic energy behind Vita's gigantform Graf Eisen, etc.
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Old 2012-08-01, 15:30   Link #316
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Cyborgs are an exception to that though. A lot of the cyborg's physical power is due to their reinforced bodies rather than the energy they use though (y'know, being cyborgs and all). That's why they have a special "muscular power" rank. It's their special attacks that are fueled by the IS energy, which can take on entirely different forms and power altogether.

Example: Dieci has a physical power equivalent to an A-rank mage, but her IS attacks are the equivalent of an S-rank.
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Old 2012-08-01, 15:59   Link #317
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Not gonna discuss further the looks of Cypha's blatantly obvious energy slash attack with you since there's no point in keep pointing the obvious truth. As i've mentioned before i have Cypha's all other slashes as comparision point and no one else looks like that, in fact, it looks more similar to the bombardment attck she used on Agito xDU(there's even a circular aura around her sword at the moment you can't get more obvious than that xDU). Look at the dynamic of the examples you posted and go look back to Cypha's attack on the iceber ...even the closest example (Armorized Deville swinging his weapon against Fate) fails to replicate the effect depicted on that page.

I guess we reached the point where it's useless to keep discussing this particular point since i believe firmly in my evidence and you keep refusing it so move on.

As for the mountain the very image depic several chunks of ice, not ony one.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Uh, their physical power is fueled by magic, eclipse, whatever energy the combat cyborgs use, etc. That's where all their power comes from. Reinforce punching through Nanoha's round shield, Fate sending out a massive shockwave, the kinetic energy behind Vita's gigantform Graf Eisen, etc.
We're bouncing back again to our previous discussion, physical strenght and magic enhace attacks aren't the same. Nanoha is just barely stronger than a well trained woman her age and size, otherwise she would be able to bend steel bars with her bare hands, something i really doubt she could pull off. Cypha's body is indeed strenghed by the conditions of the EC virus (to the point of breaking Signum's Gladiator Shield with her bare fingers) but even with that level of strenght is unplusible for her to cut a mountain to pieces with her strenght alone, it was an EC-powered attack, not just a mere "slash".

The only other installement i saw of someone cutting a mountain with a sword was Frog with the Masamune on Chrono Trigger. But even that doesn't count because it wasn't Frog's strenght what cuts the mountain it was the ludicrous power of the Masamune (which wasn't even at it's strongest at the time o.O!).

Keroko is right about the cyborgs, while most of them are certainly weaker than the main cast powerwise they're far stronger than most of them physically speaking thanks to their bionic enhacements. Dieci will own Nanoha on a wrestling match with a hand tied on her back xD
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Old 2012-08-02, 13:37   Link #318
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Not gonna discuss further the looks of Cypha's blatantly obvious energy slash attack with you since there's no point in keep pointing the obvious truth.
Repeating things and claiming it's an obvious truth doesn't make it so. This may essentially become a pissing contest but I'll continue this. You refuse to actually address what I'm saying and continue to do the same things I'm accusing you of - you're repeating your arguments ad nauseam, proclaiming your interpretation of visual effect (you are adding nothing factual to it, meaning you have nothing to stand on to present this as truth) as an obvious truth - I present examples of that same visual effect contrary to what you're trying to appeal and somehow your case is stronger than mine when yours has no logical basis behind it? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

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As i've mentioned before i have Cypha's all other slashes as comparision point and no one else looks like that, in fact, it looks more similar to the bombardment attck she used on Agito xDU(there's even a circular aura around her sword at the moment you can't get more obvious than that xDU).
Either you're lying or you can't see well - this in no way resembles that, she has no aura around her.

There are two cases where Cypha has had an aura surrounding here and this is in her first fight with Signum after reacting - slashing Signum (chapter 7, page 25) and shooting Agito (chapter 7, page 26). No such thing is on Cypha when she cuts the iceberg (this is a fact), why are you drawing comparison between them? You cannot present this as evidence of a truth.

The drawn arc (the thing that is seemingly attached to her sword) is what looks similar to what I presented. If you were actually referring to the giant white shit, that looks nothing like the only confirmed bombardment attack we see from Cypha.

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Look at the dynamic of the examples you posted and go look back to Cypha's attack on the iceber ...even the closest example (Armorized Deville swinging his weapon against Fate) fails to replicate the effect depicted on that page.
You're talking about the giant white shit behind Cypha? Here's one thing, Cypha slashed the iceberg and that white space is where the iceberg would be occupied (this cannot be argued against because where else would it be?), but Cypha couldn't even be that realistically big in comparison to the iceberg. This was even big in comparison to Esquad, which dwarfed the TSAB warship they had at the time. If you're claiming this was a byproduct of what you believe Cypha did here, I can just as easily say that's simply a way to showcase the destruction of the iceberg and depicting the scene. It's artist license, this cannot be used as it as evidence of what you're claiming without something substantial. You've yet to do so.

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I guess we reached the point where it's useless to keep discussing this particular point since i believe firmly in my evidence and you keep refusing it so move on.
I'll continue on because I believe you're wrong in your assumptions.

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As for the mountain the very image depic several chunks of ice, not ony one.
I have never said there was only one. Do not make things up or attack imagined things you believe I said. You have no evidence of particularly large chunks of the iceberg being left, no evidence of a magic ring being there, no evidence of the things in your quote below entirely:

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by the way the casting was still ongoing because there was a ring of magic around the iceberg when Cypha attacked and, oh yeah, the entire thing was still floating in the air
Hayate marked the finish of her casting and specifically conjured it to deter the Esquad into surrender but clearly had the ability to launch it or not, she was keeping it afloat with her magic as we can see it being done. It being a ring of magic around the iceberg when Cypha doesn't mean the casting was still ongoing as we have direct evidence says otherwise, whereas you're basing your belief on nothing. Another thing is after Hayate is stabbed, the second iceberg collapses entirely and the casting was done. There's no evidence the iceberg was still floating in the air after her attack, we do not see it in intact - the only size we can confirm here are the shreds of ices shown here and Cypha boasts (unless we're assuming she's a blithering idiot that missed a giant iceberg still being intact). You're building assumptions on assumptions and calling it an argument here.

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We're bouncing back again to our previous discussion, physical strenght and magic enhace attacks aren't the same.
I presented examples of non "magically enhanced" attacks, you can't just dismiss them. Here's one I didn't mention and something that can't be denied:

Signum was able to break through Fate's barrier in A's (episode 2) with a single sword swing. This instance was just a swing, nothing more. How strong is that exactly? Fate was able to block Nanoha's Divine Buster with her Round Shield, one of the most basic defensive spells (claiming that it wasn't as sturdy as a Round Shield would be faulty), and the shield itself was still intact, not being destroyed by the blast. Signum broke through Fate's barrier entirely with a single sword wing. That dictates Signum's melee strike was that incredibly powerful and Fate is later shown in the episode to being able to at least contend with Signum in melee. You cannot contradict me, that's just me retelling events and accepting what's shown. A plain sword swing was shown not being able break Bardiche when Signum first arrives and also immediately after Signum breaks through her barrier with the plain old sword swing.

Another demonstration of physical might is by Reinforce breaking through Nanoha's round shield with a single punch. This was not a "magically enhanced" attack, she followed up with one, though - Schwarze Wirkung. Nanoha blocked it, holding up her device and was pretty much only knocked into the water without taking damage. Another thing to note is Nanoha's ability to physically clash with Reinforce. Although of course Reinforce is still more powerful, that's impressive.

Vita also lifted up something enormously big in comparison to the Defense System and it was also made of iron, adding to its weight (much more dense than rock), this is also a feat of lifting strength that can't be dismissed. Vita is not the physically strongest character.

Nanoha under a limiter was able to freely catch stop and catch both Subaru's and Teana's attacks with her hands. She was the equivalent of an AA Rank mage, but this only serves to prove a mage's simple strength is not to be overlooked.

Fate produces a shock wave with her swing. The physical act of swinging causes it. This shock wave was bigger than the Defense System itself - on virtue of size alone, this has to have incredibly force behind it.

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Nanoha is just barely stronger than a well trained woman her age and size, otherwise she would be able to bend steel bars with her bare hands, something i really doubt she could pull off.
Argument from ignorance fallacy, just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean proof doesn't exist. This doesn't pass for logical reasoning, this is just personal belief. Attempt to dismiss what I said above this quote.

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Cypha's body is indeed strenghed by the conditions of the EC virus (to the point of breaking Signum's Gladiator Shield with her bare fingers) but even with that level of strenght is unplusible for her to cut a mountain to pieces with her strenght alone, it was an EC-powered attack, not just a mere "slash".
The same fallacy as above. "This is not plausible to me, therefore it had to be this and had to be that." That's what you're saying. You're not even using anything substantial to support this belief. How is this a proper argument?

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Keroko is right about the cyborgs, while most of them are certainly weaker than the main cast powerwise they're far stronger than most of them physically speaking thanks to their bionic enhacements. Dieci will own Nanoha on a wrestling match with a hand tied on her back xD
Think whatever you please, but at least make a case. Evidence says Nanoha would back hand her. Of course, this is using magic. Fighting without the use of anything, Dieci is stronger than Nanoha because Nanoha's physical strength as a mage comes from magic and she's only a regular human for the most part without it.
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Old 2012-08-02, 14:35   Link #319
Akiyoshi
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Ok, since you insist xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Either you're lying or you can't see well - this in no way resembles that, she has no aura around her.
One must be blind to not notice the second image but ok, moving on...

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
There are two cases where Cypha has had an aura surrounding here and this is in her first fight with Signum after reacting - slashing Signum (chapter 7, page 25) and shooting Agito (chapter 7, page 26). No such thing is on Cypha when she cuts the iceberg (this is a fact), why are you drawing comparison between them? You cannot present this as evidence of a truth.
Cypha barely need to make an effort to blast Agito ...she put much more power in cutting the iceberg wich translates in a much bigger aura.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
You're talking about the giant white shit behind Cypha? Here's one thing, Cypha slashed the iceberg and that white space is where the iceberg would be occupied (this cannot be argued against because where else would it be?), but Cypha couldn't even be that realistically big in comparison to the iceberg. This was even big in comparison to Esquad, which dwarfed the TSAB warship they had at the time. If you're claiming this was a byproduct of what you believe Cypha did here, I can just as easily say that's simply a way to showcase the destruction of the iceberg and depicting the scene. It's artist license, this cannot be used as it as evidence of what you're claiming without something substantial. You've yet to do so.
Just the same way i can just say it's simply a way to showcase the level of power Cypha used to destroy the iceberg. You're also making assumptions suppossedly based on that "Occam's Razor" stuff. A big circular aura clearly surrounds Cypha, and it wasn't present in any other depiction of slashes until that point. Yes, is an assumption, no one talked specifically on the nature of the attack, that's for granted. But it was hardly a mere slash, a mere slash can't cut a mountain unless your sword's lenght is at least 1/3 the thichness of the mountain (just an ssumption to clarify in case you also want to get picky on that xDU).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I'll continue on because I believe you're wrong in your assumptions.
You're free to do so but bring irrefucable evidence if you want to convince me or at least some decent logic. Nothing in the Nanoha canon suguests Cypha could had sliced a mountain with a simple, unaided slash. A big rock? maybe. A wall? sort of ..but a mountain? i don't think so. I'm not talking about mere strenght here, there's also things like resistance, distance, etc. I'm not a geologist but even then xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I have never said there was only one. Do not make things up or attack imagined things you believe I said. You have no evidence of particularly large chunks of the iceberg being left, no evidence of a magic ring being there, no evidence of the things in your quote below entirely:
I said there was more than one chunk of ice during the Phalanx Shift re-casting. But well i owe you an apologize if you think you got misinterpreted. Sorry dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Hayate marked the finish of her casting and specifically conjured it to deter the Esquad into surrender but clearly had the ability to launch it or not, she was keeping it afloat with her magic as we can see it being done. It being a ring of magic around the iceberg when Cypha doesn't mean the casting was still ongoing as we have direct evidence says otherwise, whereas you're basing your belief on nothing. Another thing is after Hayate is stabbed, the second iceberg collapses entirely and the casting was done. There's no evidence the iceberg was still floating in the air after her attack, we do not see it in intact - the only size we can confirm here are the shreds of ices shown here and Cypha boasts (unless we're assuming she's a blithering idiot that missed a giant iceberg still being intact). You're building assumptions on assumptions and calling it an argument here.
Heimdall is a spell that requires constant maintenance, i think it was even stated in the glossary Hayate's magic is necessary to keep the whole thing from falling appart (which makes sense since an upside down moutain of ice can't stand togheter on their own, it's physically impossible). Further supported by Cuirren's actions, when she stabbed Hayate and her focus goes from mantaining the spell to keep herself alive the whole thing fell appart under it's own mass.

Here's a theory, not to be taken as gospel truth since there's no confimation for this: Cypha's blade could cut easily trought the thing because ...as a divider it can weaken the magic sustaining the whole thing togheter ...of course it's still a godawfully big structure so the humongous chunks still could fall on the Esquad xDU


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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I presented examples of non "magically enhanced" attacks, you can't just dismiss them. Here's one I didn't mention and something that can't be denied:
Let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Signum was able to break through Fate's barrier in A's (episode 2) with a single sword swing. This instance was just a swing, nothing more. How strong is that exactly? Fate was able to block Nanoha's Divine Buster with her Round Shield, one of the most basic defensive spells (claiming that it wasn't as sturdy as a Round Shield would be faulty), and the shield itself was still intact, not being destroyed by the blast. Signum broke through Fate's barrier entirely with a single sword wing. That dictates Signum's melee strike was that incredibly powerful and Fate is later shown in the episode to being able to at least contend with Signum in melee. You cannot contradict me, that's just me retelling events and accepting what's shown. A plain sword swing was shown not being able break Bardiche when Signum first arrives and also immediately after Signum breaks through her barrier with the plain old sword swing.
For starters, what Signum broke wasn't Round Shiled, it was defenser ...a quicker but also noticeably weaker defense spell than the former. I concede you Signum havign great strenght but is justifable, she's not human, at the point she was a magicall construct of the Book of Darkness with enhaced stats, including strenght. But still Signum isn't the physically strongest member of the Wolkenritter and she can't slice a mountain with a plain old sword slash (Maaaaybe if she uses Karyuu Issen while unisoned with Agito).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Another demonstration of physical might is by Reinforce breaking through Nanoha's round shield with a single punch. This was not a "magically enhanced" attack, she followed up with one, though - Schwarze Wirkung. Nanoha blocked it, holding up her device and was pretty much only knocked into the water without taking damage. Another thing to note is Nanoha's ability to physically clash with Reinforce. Although of course Reinforce is still more powerful, that's impressive.
Reinforce's fist had a black/pusple aura surrounding it (i don't know if the aura is present on both TV and DVD versions, tough) and the atack was later identified as a magically enhaced melee attack. And even if it wasn't there's the fact Reinforce is also a vastly superhuman avatar of destruction, maybe she can chop a mountain with a plain old swing if she produces a sword big enough to do the task (a sword the size of Laevatein or Cypha's Koing swords is unable to pull off something like that without power).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Vita also lifted up something enormously big in comparison to the Defense System and it was also made of iron, adding to its weight (much more dense than rock), this is also a feat of lifting strength that can't be dismissed. Vita is not the physically strongest character.
That was indeed impressive and i also used to use that as testament of Vita's might and her proof as the Wolkenritter's physically strongest member. But further battles had made this example unreliable. Theorizing we could say she was floating at the time and thus able to magically sustain Graf Eisen's weith or at least reduce it (being able to even swing the thing is still a very impressive feat of strenght i must admit), Vita also received the War Hammer which ...unlike the fortress unit, it doesn't float on it's own and seems to be quite heavier than a Strike Cannon (a necessity for a hammer-like weapon). So yeah, Vita is pretty strong and yeah, she probably could destroy a mountain with Kaiju-sized Graf Eisen. ...but yet again ...Vita isn't a normal human so her unusual strenght is justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha under a limiter was able to freely catch stop and catch both Subaru's and Teana's attacks with her hands. She was the equivalent of an AA Rank mage, but this only serves to prove a mage's simple strength is not to be overlooked.
Under a limiter doesn't mean powerless. The limiters basically brought down the Aces/Wolkenritter from ungodly powerfull to merely strong xDU Nanoha was using her barrier jacket and can hold some control over her own magic even without Raising Heart. Without any magic protection whatsoever Subaru would break Nanoha's fingers if she tried to do that to the Revolver Knuckle xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Fate produces a shock wave with her swing. The physical act of swinging causes it. This shock wave was bigger than the Defense System itself - on virtue of size alone, this has to have incredibly force behind it.
The phisical act of swinging moved the sword's ENERGIES which produced the shock wave (Lightning-type Mana Conversion Affinity remember xD?). And by the way, Bardiche's Zamber mode is a Lightblade xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Argument from ignorance fallacy, just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean proof doesn't exist. This doesn't pass for logical reasoning, this is just personal belief. Attempt to dismiss what I said above this quote.
We also haven't seen her doing some of those oh so called "physical feats" without magic or aided by the prescence of her barriers, BJ or anything. In fact we saw running her desperate in a couple of ocassions un-transformed and didn't looked too impressive to me. Nanoha is quite strong indeed, able to carry the Strike Cannon around is pretty hardcore and proof of her military training but northing close to what was mentioned. At Age 9 she wasn't even an athletic girl by her own admission yet she was able to fight toe-to-toe with Fate who has trained all her life to be an expert combatant. It's great to see the wonders magic can do for a weak little girl isn't?

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
The same fallacy as above. "This is not plausible to me, therefore it had to be this and had to be that." That's what you're saying. You're not even using anything substantial to support this belief. How is this a proper argument?
I use basic logic, if you don't agree you're free to counter-argument instead of calling people "wrong" without bathing an eyelash xDU I give as many substance i can find to my argument and then some more ...i'm glad you started to do the same but at least for now i still have an answer to that xDU

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Think whatever you please, but at least make a case. Evidence says Nanoha would back hand her. Of course, this is using magic. Fighting without the use of anything, Dieci is stronger than Nanoha because Nanoha's physical strength as a mage comes from magic and she's only a regular human for the most part without it.
Good, i think Dieci's is stronger than Nanoha (probably even Otto and Sein are), i'm not even need to make a case here since Keroko already did it for me. Nanoha's natural strenght simply cannot be compared to that of human cyborgs who have enhaced physical strenght beyond the physical limits of human musulature. In that regars Subaru is probably the physically strongest member of Section Six save Vita and a Reacted Tohma. Strenght and Power are usually combined but not always directly related.
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Old 2012-08-02, 15:17   Link #320
VezSketch
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One must be blind to not notice the second image but ok, moving on...
The arc? This is what I believe you're talking about. That looks like the things I showed you before.

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.she put much more power in cutting the iceberg wich translates in a much bigger aura.
Baseless. She did both seemingly without much effort.

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Just the same way i can just say it's simply a way to showcase the level of power Cypha used to destroy the iceberg. You're also making assumptions suppossedly based on that "Occam's Razor" stuff. A big circular aura clearly surrounds Cypha, and it wasn't present in any other depiction of slashes until that point. Yes, is an assumption, no one talked specifically on the nature of the attack, that's for granted.
We see how aura looks when it's surrounding Cypha on two separate occasions and it looks nothing like what happens with the iceberg.

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But it was hardly a mere slash, a mere slash can't cut a mountain unless your sword's lenght is at least 1/3 the thichness of the mountain (just an ssumption to clarify in case you also want to get picky on that xDU).
This is fiction, are you not remembering that?

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You're free to do so but bring irrefucable evidence if you want to convince me or at least some decent logic. Nothing in the Nanoha canon suguests Cypha could had sliced a mountain with a simple, unaided slash. A big rock? maybe. A wall? sort of ..but a mountain? i don't think so. I'm not talking about mere strenght here, there's also things like resistance, distance, etc. I'm not a geologist but even then xDU
Yet I provided evidence of that.

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I said there was more than one chunk of ice during the Phalanx Shift re-casting. But well i owe you an apologize if you think you got misinterpreted. Sorry dude.
This is true and I never said it wasn't. You used it as an argument that the ice was mostly still intact.

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Heimdall is a spell that requires constant maintenance, i think it was even stated in the glossary Hayate's magic is necessary to keep the whole thing from falling appart (which makes sense since an upside down moutain of ice can't stand togheter on their own, it's physically impossible).
Thanks for repeating me.

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Further supported by Cuirren's actions, when she stabbed Hayate and her focus goes from mantaining the spell to keep herself alive the whole thing fell appart under it's own mass.
I just said all of this. Upon impact, it would've dissipated.

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For starters, what Signum broke wasn't Round Shiled, it was defenser ...a quicker but also noticeably weaker defense spell than the former.
I never said she broke her Round Shield ... there's no reason to assume the Round Shield carries a significant difference in defensive power. This is still wholly impressive.

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I concede you Signum havign great strenght but is justifable, she's not human, at the point she was a magicall construct of the Book of Darkness with enhaced stats, including strenght.
Yet Fate was physically contending with her ... This is indisputable.

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But still Signum isn't the physically strongest member of the Wolkenritter and she can't slice a mountain with a plain old sword slash (Maaaaybe if she uses Karyuu Issen while unisoned with Agito).
Yet feats say otherwise. She did better against Zest.

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Reinforce's fist had a black/pusple aura surrounding it (i don't know if the aura is present on both TV and DVD versions, tough) and the atack was later identified as a magically enhaced melee attack.
The attack I mentioned by named and specifically said I wasn't talking about, I even went to the detail of telling you what it did to Nanoha .... Do you see what I'm talking about? She broke her round shield before doing that attack.

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And even if it wasn't there's the fact Reinforce is also a vastly superhuman avatar of destruction, maybe she can chop a mountain with a plain old swing if she produces a sword big enough to do the task (a sword the size of Laevatein or Cypha's Koing swords is unable to pull off something like that without power).
Your swing doesn't necessarily need to be the size of a mountain to destroy one, this is a common occurrence across fiction and real life physics can't allow you to ignore what we actually see happen. The energy behind the attack is still apparent.

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That was indeed impressive and i also used to use that as testament of Vita's might and her proof as the Wolkenritter's physically strongest member.
Feats say otherwise. Signum even did better against Zest.

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But further battles had made this example unreliable. Theorizing we could say she was floating at the time and thus able to magically sustain Graf Eisen's weith or at least reduce it (being able to even swing the thing is still a very impressive feat of strenght i must admit), Vita also received the War Hammer which ...unlike the fortress unit, it doesn't float on it's own and seems to be quite heavier than a Strike Cannon (a necessity for a hammer-like weapon). So yeah, Vita is pretty strong and yeah, she probably could destroy a mountain with Kaiju-sized Graf Eisen. ...
You can't explain away something this gravely important with something as baseless as that theory. We see her hold it up and swing it in a fraction of a second. It happened, why would floating suddenly make it easier to lift? Wow.

Also, remember Vita's hammer breaks when she hits something more powerful than her hammer. Zest physically breaks her mini gigantform. Its durability comes from magic, regardless of size, it should remain the same.

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but yet again ...Vita isn't a normal human so her unusual strenght is justified.
Yet Nanoha can physically contend with Vita in A's.

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Under a limiter doesn't mean powerless. The limiters basically brought down the Aces/Wolkenritter from ungodly powerfull to merely strong xDU Nanoha was using her barrier jacket and can hold some control over her own magic even without Raising Heart. Without any magic protection whatsoever Subaru would break Nanoha's fingers if she tried to do that to the Revolver Knuckle xDU
Going entirely off point and actually not refuting what I said. Of course, she couldn't do it without magic. It doesn't discredit what happened.

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The phisical act of swinging moved the sword's ENERGIES which produced the shock wave (Lightning-type Mana Conversion Affinity remember xD?)
.

This is baseless. LMCA has shown no indication of doing that. Sorry, but this sounds like someone you pulled out of your ass.

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And by the way, Bardiche's Zamber mode is a Lightblade xDU
Which wouldn't matter.

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We also haven't seen her doing some of those oh so called "physical feats" without magic or aided by the prescence of her barriers, BJ or anything. In fact we saw running her desperate in a couple of ocassions un-transformed and didn't looked too impressive to me.
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're diverting from the point once again to argue about something else.

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Good, i think Dieci's is stronger than Nanoha (probably even Otto and Sein are), i'm not even need to make a case here since Keroko already did it for me. Nanoha's natural strenght simply cannot be compared to that of human cyborgs who have enhaced physical strenght beyond the physical limits of human musulature. In that regars Subaru is probably the physically strongest member of Section Six save Vita and a Reacted Tohma. Strenght and Power are usually combined but not always directly related.
I never brought up her natural strength in the first place. With her powers, Nanoha physically back hands Dieci. No questions.
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