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Old 2012-07-31, 12:12   Link #121
YF19EX
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I think it's overall rooting for our favorite characters over the other which is why it's a hotly debated item. And I enjoy that. Makes character changes and expectations more exciting.
Once again I'll take the reckless abandon they treat exercises with the context of the anime as being acceptable forms of how the base conducts itself. But even then the initial encounter with the Scarlet Twins and Tarisa was not authorized. How or why they began the dog fight was never explained. In Yui's fight against Tarisa it was a deliberate destruction of equipment and not some knock out hit. (Although it can be argued that such destruction was meant to get a rise out of Argros flight) Also you're right on the fact exercise should introduce unstable and unpredictable elements that force trainees to adapt. But most training always has a slight safety margin that is always observed. Did Yui cross that line? That can only be answered by the base and command of this project.
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:32   Link #122
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Considering they're fighting BETA that are pretty ruthless I'm sure no one cared that Yui wiped the floor with the trainee's. She didn't kill them and she didn't severely damage anything that was state of the art so there should be no issues. Besides, if her actions make the overall training and testing area improve than she should be getting pats on the back.

Or when it comes to Yuuya a saddle since he might as well ride her too.
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:37   Link #123
Trajan
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
I really fail to understand why there's been so much debate on who "won" or who "lost" the fight when there wasn't actually a fight. Yui attempted to jump-start Yuuya's familiarity with the TSF, because having a lead test pilot who has trouble managing the machine due to his lack of familiarity with the underlying operational paradigm means that PROMINENCE is wasting time and money. Yuuya successfully made the leap and now "gets it" with regard to flying the Shiranui 2nd; proper test operations may now begin. Everybody wins, and Yuuya gets a few bonus character development moments.



On the contrary; Chobi will be pissed because Chobi is Chobi and hates to lose. VG and Stella will follow Yuuya's lead. Yuuya will be happy because (a) his piloting improved and (b) he disarmed Yui at the end.
You should really rewatch this scene. Some quotes:

Yuuya: "That sword's for real combat!"
Stella: "This is going too far, Lt. Takamura!"
Yuuya (after Yui stabs Tarisa' TSF): "Are you insane!"

As I said above, Yuuya (as we know his character) should be pissed beyond belief that someone in his flight was nearly skewered by a combat sword. Do you think if during Red Flag command secretly outfitted the opposing force with live ammo and a wingman's plane got shot up that the flight leader would be happy that he then was able to take down that other plane with a "gunshot"?



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What you're both overlooking is that close-quarters TSF combat is something that was already part of the training exercise, and that damage to the TSFs is obviously considered within acceptable parameters.
False, as Yui is using a real sword, instead of the training items. Clearly this is not SOP, as Yuuya would not be surprised if Argos was constantly using real items.

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How do we know this? It already happened in Episode 3. Twice, in fact: Cryska and Inia flew Chobi into the ground (nearly wiping out Yuuya's transport plane!) and Chobi was not grounded for her reckless flying and endangerment of noncombatants, and neither did anyone start sending strenuous protests to the Soviets for being unable to control their operatives.
Not shown to viewer =/= did not occur in-universe. Protests may have been sent and Chobi may have faced discipline.

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Then, in the Argos Flight exercise, Yuuya and Chobi (there she is again...) get into a close-combat exchange involving having their TSF's basically wrestle each other, suffering additional damage. Anything Yui did in this episode was no different
False again, as Yui was using a "live" weapon. Chobi was not.

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Yes, the Argos Flight pilots didn't know about it, but the people setting up military training exercises aren't required to inform the trainees about every little part of the exercise or obtain their consent in advance.
A real-world military command would never allow an exercise involving unknown enemies and "live fire" without informing the pilots ahead of time.
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:46   Link #124
Destined_Fate
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That's the point, Yui wanted him to be pissed off so he would fight her to the fullest. He thought Tarisa was harmed but Yui is skilled enough to take her out and make it look like she hurt Tarisa badly when she didn't.

Doesn't matter, the Command didn't care at all that the TSF's were damaged. They are just training ones and as far as they're concerned the real training exercise didn't start until Yui showed up and they cut communications to get the test pilots in the dark on this unexpected change of events.

We don't know of that and from Tarisa's attitude she wasn't punished. After all TSF pilots are needed and they can't afford to be put behind schedule just because some TSF pilots got into a brawl. Since no one died and the TSFs can be repaired it isn't an issue.

Doesn't matter if it's a live weapon or not Tarisa didn't even come close to even touching Yui's paint job.

This isn't the real world, it's Alternate world where everyone is hardened by the BETA threat and they don't have all the time in the world to defeat the beta, get tests done, and roll out new TSFs. Besides this was for the benefit of the project and Yui has enough clout that it's unthinkable of punishing her unless she actually killed the pilots which she didn't.
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:09   Link #125
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should consider a Yui vs Yuuya thread.
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:23   Link #126
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Pointless since Yui would win if seconds if she tried just as she demonstrated when she effortless took out his team.
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:24   Link #127
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That thread would probably not last too long if the character development we expect of those two in the future will come to pass. And it should.
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:45   Link #128
Trajan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
That's the point, Yui wanted him to be pissed off so he would fight her to the fullest. He thought Tarisa was harmed but Yui is skilled enough to take her out and make it look like she hurt Tarisa badly when she didn't.

Doesn't matter, the Command didn't care at all that the TSF's were damaged. They are just training ones and as far as they're concerned the real training exercise didn't start until Yui showed up and they cut communications to get the test pilots in the dark on this unexpected change of events.

We don't know of that and from Tarisa's attitude she wasn't punished. After all TSF pilots are needed and they can't afford to be put behind schedule just because some TSF pilots got into a brawl. Since no one died and the TSFs can be repaired it isn't an issue.

Doesn't matter if it's a live weapon or not Tarisa didn't even come close to even touching Yui's paint job.

This isn't the real world, it's Alternate world where everyone is hardened by the BETA threat and they don't have all the time in the world to defeat the beta, get tests done, and roll out new TSFs. Besides this was for the benefit of the project and Yui has enough clout that it's unthinkable of punishing her unless she actually killed the pilots which she didn't.
You seem to be arguing that if that's what happened in the anime, then it must be "right." But a show that grounds itself in the gritty reality of a human world of military culture and geopolitics much like, though not our own, implicitly brings with it certain "rules" (and preconceptions) of how that world works. Those rules are rightfully assumed by the audience to be the same, or similar to ours, unless clear reasons are given for different rules. So when TE continually highlights concepts and traditions that are familiar to a viewer from his/her knowledge of the real world, the anime necessarily also brings along other related concepts and traditions, unless the creators offer an explanation and rationale for why the concepts and traditions of this world are different.


So, for example, the Turkish commander might not have cared (doubtful), but it beggars belief that U.S. forces are okay with some crazy Japanese officer with a combat sword going after one of their premier test pilots in order to "prove her point", just because no one got hurt. Why? Because TE has explicitly introduced a U.S. military that is highly correlated to the real world U.S. military. So a knowledgeable viewer will expect the TE U.S. military to react in a similar fashion to its real-world counterpart. Namely, having Yui removed from the program or removing Yuuya and Boening.

When it doesn't, and the anime makes no effort to explain why, then the anime ceases to become "realistic" and instead becomes more a collection of inconsistent characters and actions that only make sense if the viewer is willfully blind to the naturally-expected consequences of a given course of action.

If this were an anime where they all rode unicorns that shot homing lasers and came from made up places and had a totally different military system, then that's one thing. But by grounding the TE story in a world of F-22s, the IJA, TOPGUN and private military contractors, it's expected that the unmentioned, though necessary concepts and traditions that underlie the development and evolution of those institutions and weapons will be the same or similar to the real world. The story can't work (well) without that.

To bring it back to Yui. Putting aside the fact that somehow she found the time to become an expert in anti-TSF combat when she's been fighting BETA nonstop for the past three years (ridiculous btw), an openly racist officer who threatens the safety of her subordinates would be drummed out of a joint U.S. program in a heartbeat, and if she isn't in the TE world, then there needs to be some explanation given as to why.

Last edited by Trajan; 2012-07-31 at 14:15.
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Old 2012-07-31, 14:04   Link #129
YF19EX
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Very well put. Such story telling is reliant on real world view on certain subjects to help the viewer related to the material easier. Obviously some artistic liberty is taken, but explanations on critical points of the story should also be explained.

Last edited by YF19EX; 2012-07-31 at 14:59. Reason: Removed personal remark
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Old 2012-07-31, 14:43   Link #130
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Than the audience assumes wrong. This isn't the same type of world that the audience can even familiarize themselves with since the events of WWII happened much differently and humanity in RL has never had to dealt with extinction against monstrous creatures that don't play fair and are nearly infinite. Thus the rules are far different on what is and isn't acceptable.

She isn't openly racist because she doesn't see her comments as racist since she sees Yuuya as Kin thus she expects far more out of him(After all you never see her once say she's disappointed in any of the other pilots nor is she even hard on them). Also this episodes has shown that she was only hard on him because she wants him to improve and learn to use the TSF the right away since Yuuya has the talent to be just as skilled as she is.

Furthermore you're again putting your own real world views out and ignoring the Alternate World which has tons of nationalism going around because of the BETA threat and how events happened differently. Thus you're wrong in all of your assessments because you're putting your bias of the RL and are not understanding that things are FAR different in the Alternative world.

So it's easy for you to say "That's Racist" when in Alternative World it's called National Pride and had the BETA not been such a huge threat many of the nations wouldn't have gathered up in such a way. Not to mention that many hate America and other untouched nations because unlike them the BETA has left them mostly alone while the others have lost whole countries and loved ones. Thus it breeds resentment.

Than there's the thing where TSF pilots are in extremely high demand that even children are being asked to fight from the countries closest to the BETA threat. This as long as no one dies in the exercises and nothing too important is damaged than there's no reason to punish the TSF pilots since they're needed and are hard to replace. Of course they can't go around breaking laws but as long as they behave and don't go too far(With too far being an opinion that differs between the UN nations. Such as Russia being okay with torturing strangers just because they aren't Russian).

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Old 2012-07-31, 17:58   Link #131
Trajan
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This is getting away from Yui so I'll spoiler the non-Yui bits

[spoiler=non-Yui]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Than the audience assumes wrong. This isn't the same type of world that the audience can even familiarize themselves with since the events of WWII happened much differently and humanity in RL has never had to dealt with extinction against monstrous creatures that don't play fair and are nearly infinite. Thus the rules are far different on what is and isn't acceptable.
I disagree. I think this is the "same type of world" and TE falls neatly into the standard sci-fi alternate history/apocalyptic vein, which is basically "how would humans like ourselves react/fare in X situation." The connection, and emotional hook for the viewer is that these characters are people like us, from a world like ours, so we can identify with their struggles (and become emotionally invested in the story).

Often the allusions to the similarity of the fictional world to our world is subtle. Some examples from TE: they have a family unit consisting of a mother and a father, and recognize extended relations (Yui's uncle); they identify as members of large-scale political units (countries) and they notice racial differences; TE also plays to racial stereotypes that mirror our world: italian men are gauche ladies-men; swedes are big-boobed and blonde; americans have trouble with authority; russians like to torture, etc. All these subtle cues are there to let us know that we're in a world not-unlike our own, and to unconsciously allow the viewer to "fill in" those parts of the Alternative world that the writers don't have time/can't describe. And when the viewer does fill-in the world, he or she does it with the underlying assumption (based on the cues we have) that what he or she doesn't see is the same, or very close to, our world.

Quote:
She isn't openly racist because she doesn't see her comments as racist since she sees Yuuya as Kin thus she expects far more out of him(After all you never see her once say she's disappointed in any of the other pilots nor is she even hard on them). Also this episodes has shown that she was only hard on him because she wants him to improve and learn to use the TSF the right away since Yuuya has the talent to be just as skilled as she is.
Racism isn't just about believing that one race is inferior to all others, it can also take the form of believing one race is superior to all others. This is Yui's racism, where she expects more from Yuuya because he is part-Japanese, and thus the implication is that she believes a Japanese pilot has greater potential than a non-Japanese pilot specifically because of their racial heritage. (Note: I also think Yuuya is racist against the Japanese, in that he sees them as inferior.)

Spoiler for non-Yui:
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Old 2012-07-31, 21:13   Link #132
Destined_Fate
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Than we're going to have to disagree. Though I will say that if you continue to try and rationalize real world things and use it for how you think things should be handled in TE you'll be disappointed since this isn't RL and their timeline has many changes on top of the BETA threat.

It's a different time/era. Look at the past, the Romans treated other races poorly because they weren't Roman however those same races treated others bad for being different. They didn't do it because of hate, they just did it because that was what was acceptable. Thus it isn't racist to them because that's just how things are around them.


Didn't you watch the other episodes? There's huge scale nationalism, hell it's the reason Yuuya was discriminated against despite Japan and America no longer being at war.


No, they don't because there's no reason to. If they killed a pilot or damaged something that's still new and isn't an old training TSF than there would be issues. At most they'll be told to not do it again, they wont slap them with penalties or lock them up since they need every skilled TSF pilot they can get.
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Old 2012-07-31, 22:39   Link #133
encia
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No she didn't, had she tried Yuuya would be the one ground like Tarisa who is a far better close quarters fighter than he is.
.
You are not factoring the change of pace/tempo e.g Yui's facial expression and intensity at the end.

Tarisa's TSF trip over wasn't done with a sword i.e. hand-to-hand defence that used Tarisa's momentum. Yuuya has warned Tarisa to not rush in i.e. Yuuya is not a rookie.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-31 at 22:53.
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:13   Link #134
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Originally Posted by encia View Post

Tarisa's TSF trip over wasn't done with a sword i.e. hand-to-hand defence that used Tarisa's momentum.
total random info and fun trivia. The move Yui used was a variation of akido's disarming and throw technique. the throw it self was the YOKOMEN-UCHI KAITEN NAGE.
yui seems to be an akido or akijutsu practitioner.
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Old 2012-08-01, 01:06   Link #135
Tenchi Ryu
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That thread would probably not last too long if the character development we expect of those two in the future will come to pass. And it should.
This. I agree that BOTH of them need to change their approach towards each other. Neither of them are doing it the right way.
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Old 2012-08-01, 01:39   Link #136
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It may be a surprise to many but anime are not made for a Western audience. 'Racism' detected may be nothing more than a Japanese self-pat to the head. The fight chreography, Yui's supposed superiority complex etc are just a Japanese centric world view.

Just look at your country's Olympic coverage for similar real-life examples :P
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Old 2012-08-01, 02:56   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
total random info and fun trivia. The move Yui used was a variation of akido's disarming and throw technique. the throw it self was the YOKOMEN-UCHI KAITEN NAGE.
yui seems to be an akido or akijutsu practitioner.
That would be logicial if Yui has been trained to use her TSF as a giant samurai suit, there are lof of shared moves/synergies between akijutsu and kenjutsu.
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Old 2012-08-01, 04:10   Link #138
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Truth to tell, the MuvLuvVerse does have rather more RealTeck and RealPolitik in their plots, thanks to the research efforts of their writers. The amount of Realpolitik in the original series, and TE, is also one of the reasons it took so long for an anime to be released.

If you are going to discuss, do take it to the correct thread though. Here is the Yui love/hate area.
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Old 2012-08-01, 07:32   Link #139
Destined_Fate
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You are not factoring the change of pace/tempo e.g Yui's facial expression and intensity at the end.

Tarisa's TSF trip over wasn't done with a sword i.e. hand-to-hand defence that used Tarisa's momentum. Yuuya has warned Tarisa to not rush in i.e. Yuuya is not a rookie.
And you keep trying to paint Yuuya as if he ever had a chance against Yui which he didn't since she wasn't there to defeat him but to teach him. As was shown when she took out his far more experienced team without any effort than just played with him until Yui was satisfied that Yuuya was learning.
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Old 2012-08-01, 15:08   Link #140
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It appears that Yuuya managed to get a lucky hit in that Yui wasn't expecting. She was about to end things, but the God of Despair smiled on Yuuya. That said, she was obviously dominating the fight.

As for anti-TSF trainging, the Japanese do Practice TSF kendo, afterall, as seen by the training in episode 1. They might even have an inter IJA TSF kendo tournament
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