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Old 2012-07-31, 10:18   Link #681
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XaXa View Post
so you think that the character Yui in the game is a NPC? Because you understand the fact that there are just 2 types of character possible in a game. Players and non-Players? And Yui is clearly a NPC.


"Searching Ability" yeah he is looking up things on the internet... Doesn't really count as "Thinking" ...well nowadays maybe...
The character of Yui who ran on the SAO servers in accordance to the rules of the Cardinal System, sure she was an NPC. But once she started acting outside of the Cardinal system as a free agent, she became a player -- the fact that she's running from Kirito's system instead of a piece of meat doesn't change that.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:16   Link #682
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There is a drawing for everybody who don't get my point...
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1...ZyuDunahI/edit
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:53   Link #683
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It's one thing if your original question was "Is Yui an NPC in the game Sword Art Online?", since the answer would be yes, she was an NPC in SAO.

but your question was "Is Yui an NPC?", which, especially in this thread, implies that you're talking about the entirety of the SAO series. Yui ceased to be a NPC as soon as she was no longer part of SAO the game.

and you're evading again, What game is Yui an NPC of when she's hacking Caltech's database for Asuna? what game is Yui an NPC of when she's celebrating with the rest of the gang at the Dicey Cafe for Kirito getting Excalibur? What game is Yui an NPC of when she's just plain talking to Asuna/Kirito via their cellphone?

Hell, do you even know anything about SAO's story outside of the Aincrad arc?

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-07-31 at 16:32. Reason: Quote removed!
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:57   Link #684
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my first sentence was "I have a little argument with some people if Yui is a NPC or not. They all claim she is an AI - which I agree with. But does that mean she is not a NPC?"

I was always talking about her character... the whole time... an AI doesn't need a "character"... like I wrote "you just don't get it and you start to bitch around for about 3pages"
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:15   Link #685
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What I thought as well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I wake up to three pages of this?
Aincrad Yui before meeting Kirito&Asuna = NPC
Aincrad Yui after meeting Kirito&Asuna = making decisions beyond what a NPC should be able to do (wanting to be with Kirito&Asuna)
ALO Yui and after = not an NPC

A NPC has some kind of task in a game, even if it's to walk down the road.
Yui had her task as mental health counsellor in SAO, but she doesn't have a single task in ALO, since she wasn't even supposed to exist in ALO. She has a pixie guide form, but can change to her SAO form at any time and if anything, she was supposed to be deleted when Aincrad was cleared.
Hence she is an unique AI in ALO, but most definitely not an NPC.
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Old 2012-07-31, 14:57   Link #686
XaXa
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I think only kyp275 really got the point... all the other people are saying something else... stuff that is not true. He is the only one who understands what a script, AI and a character in a game is...
So don't act like it is - or was everything clear. kyp275 got stuck because I wrote "AI = NPC" at the beginning. Which ist wrong. And he is the only one who was bothered by that mistake. And the main problem of course -> AI and ingame character have the exact same name... well too bad.

All the others didn't get it at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya
Aincrad Yui before meeting Kirito&Asuna = NPC
no Yui was controlling a character in the game. And that character... that avatar... that cute little girl... that empty shell was a NPC. She just controlls that character...

If you play a game you don't become a "Player Character"... just the character in the game is a Player Character - you are still you...

Quote:
AIs have the ability to Make judgement on their own while NPCs only limited to Actions given by the creator. AIs have a Learning Capability while NPCs only Stick to their script
A NPC is not the script behind it...

look at the drawing... Script left - NPC right.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1...ZyuDunahI/edit

If you open a door in a game... how does that work? yes there is a script... if A open door. So the door is a NPC? no... exactly...
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:45   Link #687
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Ok, several posts have been either deleted, edited or merged. Before making any more posts, please take a moment to read our forum rules again, in particular rule 1.2:

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1.2 Do not insult or harass other members
Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:11   Link #688
n120cky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XaXa View Post
look at the drawing... Script left - NPC right.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1...ZyuDunahI/edit
As far as I know the other trying to say is, Yui is the script of the AI you draw in there, and she is an advanced AI (in LN universe) that sufficient enough to become independent(not attached to an avatar or a character in specific game).
So in my opinion yes she become an NPC if she controlling a specific avatar / character in a game.
So in short way Yui more like the soul of NPC she take control.
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Old 2012-07-31, 21:39   Link #689
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I'm not the type to participate, but I really couldn't ignore this.
XaXa, your question was whether Yui is an NPC or not.
Well, what is an NPC? You said so yourself, Non-Playing Character.
So, yes, before she met Kirito and Asuna, she was an NPC.
Afterwards, she started playing the game/living in the world beyond her limitations as an NPC. She cannot be an NPC if she's playing the game.
After she was discovered by the Cardinal system, Kirito transferred her to his NerveGear.
ALO.
She's in the game via external software. She's playing the game along with Kirito as a Navigation Pixie. How can she be considered an NPC?
Real world: She's on a cell phone talking to Kirito or Asuna. It's as someone mentioned before, calling her an NPC would be equating Siri on my iPhone to one.

I have a question for you, XaXa.
So, if I log on to an MMO, and instead of playing the game, I answer everyone's questions about the game and give everyone info (such as directions/maps and such), am I an NPC?
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Old 2012-07-31, 22:56   Link #690
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I'm starting to think that it's my role in life to make summaries to settle days of arguments. Oh well, once more unto the breach.

Firstly, All NPCs are AIs to a various extent - however not all AIs are NPCs.

Confused? Don't worry, I'll explain.

At the start of Morning Dew Girl, Yui is still the Mental Health Counseling Program, and is a Non-Player Character with a limited AI, run by the Cardinal System that serves as the base for SAO.

All NPCs in games are controlled by either scripting, or a very limited AI - note Skyrim, where the NPC AI is advanced enough to steal your loot if you leave it on the ground, or make a temporary truce with an enemy party to take down a dragon, etc. Consider the Replica AI of FEAR, which was OMGWTF advanced for its time, and still holds up well today. So yes, at the start of Morning Dew Girl, Yui is an NPC.

Throughout Morning Dew Girl, however Yui develops further from being an NPC, and is able to move to making her own decisions and acting on her own will - she is supposed to act as MHCP-001, but note her conversation with Asuna & Kirito:

Spoiler for Vol 2 Sidestory, Morning Dew Girl, quotation of relevant point:


By the time Morning Dew Girl ends, Yui is no longer an NPC controlled by the system, but her own person - in Mass Effect terms, she's now an unshackled AI. She's making her own choices, her own decisions.

Now, in ALO, during the Fairy Dance arc, Yui manifests into ALO as a Navigation Pixie, which is usually an NPC familliar equivalent of sorts. However, she still retains her independent nature. She is not acting under control of the system - she is acting under control of herself.

Yui started as an NPC, but is now a person in her own right, and is essentially an unshackled AI.

Also, in Volume 10 she apparently helps Asuna hack a number of real world databases - which she would not be able to do if she were an ALO NPC.
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:18   Link #691
raikou
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Quote:
I'm not the type to participate, but I really couldn't ignore this.
XaXa, your question was whether Yui is an NPC or not.
Well, what is an NPC? You said so yourself, Non-Playing Character.
So, yes, before she met Kirito and Asuna, she was an NPC.
Afterwards, she started playing the game/living in the world beyond her limitations as an NPC. She cannot be an NPC if she's playing the game.
After she was discovered by the Cardinal system, Kirito transferred her to his NerveGear.
ALO.
She's in the game via external software. She's playing the game along with Kirito as a Navigation Pixie. How can she be considered an NPC?
Real world: She's on a cell phone talking to Kirito or Asuna. It's as someone mentioned before, calling her an NPC would be equating Siri on my iPhone to one.

I have a question for you, XaXa.
So, if I log on to an MMO, and instead of playing the game, I answer everyone's questions about the game and give everyone info (such as directions/maps and such), am I an NPC?
NPC = non playable character, not non-playing character; everything can be considered as "playing" at some point. Playable means if it could be a human controlling its actions.

Unshackled AI is still code. It's called AI because its ARTIFICAL intelligence.
Yui is not human. Thus, yui is not a playable character. Now, using logic, that means she is a Non Playable Character. I love logic.

Sources: I programmed before. Geez, this pisses me off.
Also, yes, still would be a NPC. Albeit with a lot a lot of code. Just like the NPCs from Moonlight Sculptor. As you said, she's "in the game" from external software; that's no different than bots. Okay, she's intelligent, but that doesn't make her a PLAYABLE character, just like how I can write a script to "play a game."
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:37   Link #692
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikou View Post
NPC = non playable character, not non-playing character; everything can be considered as "playing" at some point. Playable means if it could be a human controlling its actions.

Unshackled AI is still code. It's called AI because its ARTIFICAL intelligence.
Yui is not human. Thus, yui is not a playable character. Now, using logic, that means she is a Non Playable Character. I love logic.

Sources: I programmed before. Geez, this pisses me off.
Also, yes, still would be a NPC. Albeit with a lot a lot of code. Just like the NPCs from Moonlight Sculptor. As you said, she's "in the game" from external software; that's no different than bots. Okay, she's intelligent, but that doesn't make her a PLAYABLE character, just like how I can write a script to "play a game."
So would Yui be considered a NPC when she's celebrating with Kirito & co. in Dicey Cafe?
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Old 2012-08-01, 01:26   Link #693
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikou View Post
NPC = non playable character, not non-playing character; everything can be considered as "playing" at some point. Playable means if it could be a human controlling its actions.

Unshackled AI is still code. It's called AI because its ARTIFICAL intelligence.
Yui is not human. Thus, yui is not a playable character. Now, using logic, that means she is a Non Playable Character. I love logic.
No, NPC stands for "non-player character." The term originated in the long ago days of table top RPGs, and referred to any character controlled by the DM instead of the players. (And NPCs were playable if your character died and you could convince the DM to let you take one over instead of rolling a new one.)

In a computerized RPG, an NPC is still a character controlled by the DM -- i.e., the game program. Thus once Yui stopped being a piece of the Cardinal System, she stopped being an NPC and became a player in the game.

Now that's logic.
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Old 2012-08-01, 01:47   Link #694
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I'll second the sentiment earlier about "omg, did we really have this much posts about AIs and NPCs?" - especially when this thread isn't even about the mechanics of the SAOverse

I'd reply to this with my own two cents, but I don't want to be banhammered by a mod for being off-topic If we have a thread about SAO mechanics and I'll reply there.


Back on topic, I'm expecting the Murder Case adaption to flunk as bad as the Aria one did. I am not expecting this episode to be able to convey the plot fully, not within one episode. I'll be mainly watching this episode for the graphic effects, and hopefully Laughing Coffin + Kirito making their respective bada$$ entries
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Old 2012-08-01, 02:20   Link #695
raikou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
No, NPC stands for "non-player character." The term originated in the long ago days of table top RPGs, and referred to any character controlled by the DM instead of the players. (And NPCs were playable if your character died and you could convince the DM to let you take one over instead of rolling a new one.)

In a computerized RPG, an NPC is still a character controlled by the DM -- i.e., the game program. Thus once Yui stopped being a piece of the Cardinal System, she stopped being an NPC and became a player in the game.

Now that's logic.
A computerized RPG, an NPC does not have to be controlled by the game program. It can be controlled by SDK, or delegates. Or scripts from external sources. Once Yui stopped being a piece of the Cardinal System---wait what? So she is a piece of code that managed transcend its own compiler? Dafuq? Are you suggesting that scripts or bots can become "players" in their own right? NPCs can be intelligent and make their own decisions; check out Moonlight Sculptor.

Okay I concede,if she magically stopped being a piece of the Cardinal System. YUI ain't a NPC. She's a plot hole.
The whole SAO series makes me want to vomit based on some faulty assumptions/
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Old 2012-08-01, 02:31   Link #696
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XaXa View Post
Aloha ~

I have a little argument with some people if Yui is a NPC or not. They all claim she is an AI - which I agree with. But does that mean she is not a NPC?



I say:
She is not a Player so she is automatically a NPC.
They all think that there is an “in between”
Player – AI – NPC… NO?!

Character controlled by human = Player
Character controlled by script = NPC

Of course you can call her an AI – but that doesn't mean she is not a NPC.

Was Pinoccio a real boy because he could think and talk? no.. he was still a wooden puppet. The fairy had to make him into a real boy. ( sounds dirty :3 )

And I'm not saying it would be stupid to have an emotional connection to her because she is not a human. A cat is also no human - does that mean you shouldn't give a sh*t about cats? hell no!

They say:
Yui is not NPC final answer…. *YOU JUST WON A MILLION DOLLARS*


... -.-


What do you think?
While I'm not pursuing a profession in computer science currently, I did major in AI and Machine Learning in the past (which is one of the reasons why I don't enjoy some parts of the setting, because I feel Kawahara didn't do enough research on the subject matter, but nevermind that). My paper was in fact a paper on Centralized Cooperative Intelligence vs Distributed Cooperative Intelligence in games and simulations. For the record, I also played pencil-and-paper D&D for more than 10 years since elementary 5, though I've also stopped playing for almost 10 years.

An NPC is merely a Non-Player Character, ie. a character that cannot be played. I agree with kyp275's and some other members' replies, and I think the confusion comes because you have not properly defined the difference between AI and NPC, or rather you might be confused about the definition of NPC and AI in my humble opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XaXa View Post
But an AI who plays a game = NPC.
There is nothing further than the truth in that line of thought. But before we can further talk about that, we have to go back to how you define PCs and NPCs.

Quote:
Character controlled by human = Player
Character controlled by script = NPC
This is not entirely accurate in my opinion. A Character is a Character. It does not equate to the Player. The Player is the one controlling the PC (Player Character). A PC is defined by its appearance, traits, abilities/skills. The Player is the mind behind the PC. The Player receives feedback through the available senses and skills of the PC (like sight, hearing, detect evil, infravision, detect traps), and makes decisions and carries out actions that are available to the PC (as limited by his skills in the game and the rules of the game environment). A Player may be able to swim in real life, but his Player Character may not be able to in the game. Hence, we should not equate Player to Player Character. The Player is just the mind and the PC is just the "fake body/avatar" (in other words, the PC forms the set of sensors and actuators available to the Player in the game environment). What I'm seeing here is that you are attempting to 'identify', rather than 'define'.

In the same way, NPCs in games are controlled by Agents (this is what we call them in the field of Artificial Intelligence), which can be non-intelligent Agents (like scripts as you've mentioned) or Intelligent Agents (which exhibit some semblance of cognitive behavior). In any environment, a well-defined relatively complex, Intelligent Agent is given goals. An Agent gets feedback/information through the sensors available to it, makes autonomous decisions within the limits of its intelligence, and carries out actions through its actuators to achieve its goals. In the case of games, the NPC (or mob) is the entity through which the Agent senses and acts. While you can map 1 Agent to 1 NPC (each Agent being autonomous and independent from another in decision making, whether they are non-Intelligent or Intelligent Agents), it is possible to have 1 Agent controlling multiple NPCs (just like a Dungeon Master controlling all the NPCs in a game session). This is especially true if we want to exhibit group/hive/collective/centralized intelligence in the NPCs. Thus, just like a Player should be distinguished from a Player Character, an Agent should be distinguished from a Non-Player Character it controls.

Next, we come to the question of labeling 'Yui' as an Agent or an NPC. While strictly speaking, 'Yui' can merely be used as a label for the NPC avatar in SAO, just like Kirito being the name of the avatar/character that the Player, Kirigaya Kazuto, is controlling, it is common that in the case of a game environment when the Player can strongly identify with the Character he is playing (whether that kind of identification is done by the Player himself or by his friends), the identity of the Character gets carried over to the Player himself. Which is why Asuna and the rest still calls him Kirito in Real Life. That is not to say that Kazuto equates to the Player Character and has the same abilities. You are trying to equate them by 'identification', rather than by 'definition', which is what most of us are doing.

So, now that we have distinguished Agent from NPC (that is, if y'all agree with me up till this point) this is merely a subjective matter of whether you or your friends (as readers of the story) are identifying Yui as the Agent (ie. that mind) or the NPC avatar. Clearly, to me, in the story, Kirito and the rest are identifying Yui as the Agent and not the NPC. And also, clearly to me again, you seem to be identifying Yui as the Agent as well but trying to define the controlling Agent as an aggregate part of an NPC, which should not be done in my opinion and based on the points I've made. If say, the Intelligent-Agent Yui is given access to control multiple NPCs (which are merely sensors and actuators for Yui in the environment) in the game, will you now call Yui a group of NPCs rather than an NPC? Or is it better not to define her as NPC at all?
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Last edited by larethian; 2012-08-01 at 02:41.
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Old 2012-08-01, 03:44   Link #697
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@larethian I think that's the sum of all of the explanations, though I like to point out that Yui lost the ability to control the "access to control multiple NPCs" since she was moved to Kirito's personal storage no?
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Old 2012-08-01, 04:13   Link #698
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Back on topic, I'm expecting the Murder Case adaption to flunk as bad as the Aria one did. I am not expecting this episode to be able to convey the plot fully, not within one episode. I'll be mainly watching this episode for the graphic effects, and hopefully Laughing Coffin + Kirito making their respective bada$$ entries

And on this topic guys here's the preview of well you know .
http://www.swordart-online.net/story/index05.html
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Old 2012-08-01, 04:15   Link #699
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Hmm... seems promising. Focuses mostly on meeting up with Asuna and only bits from the first half were shown so they might not be cramming it all into one episode.
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Old 2012-08-01, 05:21   Link #700
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirX View Post
@larethian I think that's the sum of all of the explanations, though I like to point out that Yui lost the ability to control the "access to control multiple NPCs" since she was moved to Kirito's personal storage no?
I'm just stating an example to make a point.
And I didn't notice it was a sum of all the points. I was merely constructing a post based on my past expertise as coherently as I could.
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