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Old 2012-08-01, 11:31   Link #501
hyl
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, the manifesto (that we did see) does state that the bullying problem has grown out of hand. Perhaps that isn't the sole reason, but it does seem to be a major facet of it.
The school is split in 3 major factions : general, public safety and finance. While she does acknowledge this problem, bullying does not look like a direct issue for her department but rather for the public safety ( Mouri) or maybe even general (Moheji).
It would be a little odd that her main election plan is not related to her own faction, but for the competition.
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Old 2012-08-01, 11:38   Link #502
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The school is split in 3 major factions : general, public safety and finance. While she does acknowledge this problem, bullying does not look like a direct issue for her department but rather for the public safety ( Mouri) or maybe even general (Moheji).
It would be a little odd that her main election plan is not related to her own faction, but for the competition.
Well, I don't know about that. It sends a strong message that the other two departments are not getting the job done about something that is clearly their problem, and that she has a financial solution that will solve this problem they all share. So actually, as far as Platforms go, it isn't necessarily a bad idea.
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Old 2012-08-01, 11:53   Link #503
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While it may work for regular elections for student president, i can't agree when it comes to politics in Koichoco. Koichoco has a slight exaggerated real life politcs on going.
I think it's pretty rare that for example a democrat canditate with republican beliefs is going to win many voters from either side. Plus you will likely get conflict in your own department for doing that.

While it hasn't been mentioned in the anime, how many students are in fact financial aid scholarship students? I don't think that they are in the majority (otherwise the bullying doesn't make sense), so from a financial standpoint i don't see the point of a regular scholarship.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:00   Link #504
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
While it may work for regular elections for student president, i can't agree when it comes to politics in Koichoco. Koichoco has a slight exaggerated real life politcs on going.
I think it's pretty rare that for example a democrat canditate with republican beliefs is going to win many voters from either side. Plus you will likely get conflict in your own department for doing that.
Eh, I don't think it's about "beliefs", and this isn't a question of turf. The problem with bullying is shared by the entire school, and one would imagine that the candidates from all three divisions would put forward policies to address this issue. The Public Safety committee already has a red mark because of incidents that occurred "on their watch", so it's up to the two other divisions to come up with a solution. Satsuki's solution played entirely on her strengths as a member of the finance committee; it's a financial solution to a problem they all share.

I guess what we need to see is Moheji's policy statement to address this issue.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
While it hasn't been mentioned in the anime, how many students are in fact financial aid scholarship students? I don't think that they are in the majority (otherwise the bullying doesn't make sense), so from a financial standpoint i don't see the point of a regular scholarship.
Well, I don't think it's fair to just cut the financial aid program and not offer any sort of alternative. This way, students who are eligible can transition and be recognized as full-fledged students (with all the privileges that conveys). I suppose the alternative is "we're just going to get rid of the Financial Aid program; goodbye", but that's rather cold-hearted. Perhaps that's what some other candidates might propose instead, though.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:16   Link #505
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I recently picked up this show, largely because of the character designs I'll admit.

But what has maintained my interest in this show is the student politics (and the fact that more central characters are generally likeable).

The politics in this show is pretty interesting. Satsuki's political philosophy is pretty well-developed and presented. Her staunch fiscal conservatism would make Ron Paul blush. It'll be interesting to see if Oojima can come up with a good practical counter to her, since he is running against her after all.

This anime also does a pretty good job of showing the difficulties in political campaign fundraising. I was genuinely impressed with the level of detail that went into that.

If I was to recommend a new anime to a friend who's a political junkie I might well choose this show. If it's Student Council election plot continues to be as interesting as it's been so far, I'll be sticking with this show through to the end.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:20   Link #506
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I don't see libertarianism as the center of Satsuki's ideals at all. For example, there's no way Ron Paul would argue for more spending for poor students, which seems to be the centerpiece of Satsuki's platform. If anything she seems to be a progressive - her politics would no doubt get her labeled as a "damn socialist" by the right in the USA.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:30   Link #507
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I don't see libertarianism as the center of Satsuki's ideals at all.
How can massive across-the-board spending cuts to numerous clubs (to the point that some of them are going to be wiped out entirely) be anything but fiscal conservatism?

Quote:
For example, there's no way Ron Paul would argue for more spending for poor students,
Satsuki's supporting a scholarship-based alternative, from what my subs had anyway (it's at 19:41 of Episode 4). Scholarships can be privately funded.

In any event, it's simply ridiculous to argue that Satsuki is not a fiscal conservative when she's proposing massive across-the-board spending cuts to clubs.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:44   Link #508
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How can massive across-the-board spending cuts to numerous clubs (to the point that some of them are going to be wiped out entirely) be anything but fiscal conservativism.
She's redistributing wealth from the more privileged to the needy so I'd say she leans more towards the left wing.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:48   Link #509
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She's redistributing wealth from the more privileged to the needy.
On what basis do you make that claim? Are there clubs getting more money based on Satsuki's plan? If so, I don't recall any such detail ever coming up.

What is clearly being shown is substantial spending cuts to clubs, with many of them being wiped out entirely. That is definitely fiscal conservatism. Like Oojima himself pointed out, it's strict fiscal management. It's tightening the purse strings.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:48   Link #510
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She's redistributing wealth from the more privileged to the needy.
Exactly.

She's arguing that money should be redistributed from the wealthy kids farting around in bogus "clubs" to poor kids who're currently being forced to humiliate themselves like Cinderella. It's a classic example of egalitarianism, which is the political polar opposite of libertarianism. There's no evidence whatsoever that she wants to reduce overall spending (which conservatives in actuality never do anyway) but rather change the way the money is spent.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:56   Link #511
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Exactly.

She's arguing that money should be redistributed from the wealthy kids farting around in bogus "clubs" to poor kids who're currently being forced to humiliate themselves like Cinderella.
And on what basis do you make this claim?

Like I just wrote, scholarships can be privately funded.


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It's a classic example of egalitarianism, which is the political polar opposite of libertarianism. There's no evidence whatsoever that she wants to reduce overall spending
Sure there is such evidence. The fact that she intends to cut spending drastically on clubs.

How often do you hear a self-described liberal or progressive talk about spending cuts? That's much more commonly a position held by self-described fiscal conservatives, even if it's just electioneering for many of them.


Edit: Now, it occurs to me that maybe you and Haak know something from the source material that I don't. If so, maybe I'm wrong here. But going strictly on what we've seen in these first four episodes, Satsuki strikes me as a penny-pinching fiscal conservative who's big on balancing budgets. Perhaps a future episode will cause my impressions to change though.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:03   Link #512
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We'll see - but the entire structure of the episode implied that Satsuki plans to use the club money to fund scholarships. It would be an enormous coincidence to focus the episode on bullying, then have Satsuki tell Yuuki "Have you actually read my manifesto?" which we can clearly see makes mention of bullying and scholarships - only to have the scholarships and the club funds be completely unrelated.

To me this looks like the whole point of the political argument - he's fighting to save the clubs, she's fighting to help the poor students - and these two ideals directly contradict each other. And that provides the dramatic tension between Yuuki and Satsuki. If that's not the case, then the entire fourth ep was a waste of time - and that seems unlikely to me.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:06   Link #513
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
On what basis do you make that claim? Are there clubs getting more money based on Satsuki's plan? If so, I don't recall any such detail ever coming up.

What is clearly being shown is substantial spending cuts to clubs, with many of them being wiped out entirely. That is definitely fiscal conservatism. Like Oojima himself pointed out, it's strict fiscal management. It's tightening the purse strings.
I just assumed that the money saved from the clubs would go directly into funding scholarships student's education, but I'm just guessing (I thought that was the assumption already being made).

Really I suppose it's more accurate to say she's fighting for a liberal ideology using fiscal conservative methods.

But I reckon we're always going to get problems trying to apply an American lens to a political story that's most likely based on Japanese politics.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:10   Link #514
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
We'll see - but the entire structure of the episode implied that Satsuki plans to use the club money to fund scholarships. It would be an enormous coincidence to focus the episode on bullying, then have Satsuki tell Yuuki "Have you actually read my manifesto?" which we can clearly see makes mention of bullying and scholarships - only to have the scholarships and the club funds be completely unrelated.

To me this looks like the whole point of the political argument - he's fighting to save the clubs, she's fighting to help the poor students - and these two ideals directly contradict each other. And that provides the dramatic tension between Yuuki and Satsuki. If that's not the case, then the entire fourth ep was a waste of time - and that seems unlikely to me.
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I just assumed that the money saved from the clubs would go directly into funding scholarships student's education, but I'm just guessing (I thought that was the assumption already being made).

Really I suppose it's more accurate to say she's fighting for a liberal ideology using fiscal conservative methods.

But I reckon we're always going to get problems trying to apply an American lens to a political story that's most likely based on Japanese politics.
Ok, I now see what you guys are saying. Good points.

Fighting for a liberal ideology using fiscal conservative methods might be the best way to put it, yeah.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:14   Link #515
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I love that this episode was (maybe deliberately) vague.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
To me this looks like the whole point of the political argument - he's fighting to save the clubs, she's fighting to help the poor students - and these two ideals directly contradict each other. And that provides the dramatic tension between Yuuki and Satsuki. If that's not the case, then the entire fourth ep was a waste of time - and that seems unlikely to me.
Here is maybe a problem. Wouldn't this make Oojima a "villain" for the low income students like Isara if your theory is correct?
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:19   Link #516
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I love that this episode was (maybe deliberately) vague.



Here is maybe a problem. Wouldn't this make Oojima a "villain" for the low income students like Isara if your theory is correct?
Well, I suspect that whoever win's the election, the winner will learn something from the loser, and you'll have a classic case of thesis-antithesis-synthesis.

In other words, Oojima and Satsuki will likely refine each others positions and/or arrive at a compromise.

I can't imagine this show ending on the note of the food club disbanding, but I also can't imagine it ending on the note of Oojima keeping it alive by hurting poorer students, so I think that a compromise of some sort will have to be reached. Presuming Enzo is right, anyway, and it would make the narrative a bit more compelling for him to be right.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:35   Link #517
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Here is maybe a problem. Wouldn't this make Oojima a "villain" for the low income students like Isara if your theory is correct?
I think that's exactly the point of the episode, though. Ever since he read her manifesto, he's been listless and distraught. I think that's exactly the issue that they are driving at: he was (they were) so focused on saving his club that he didn't consider that she may have a good reason for needing the money (to help people like Isara get out of the rut she's in). So now, because he does care about Isara and others in her situation, he needs/wants to come up with another policy to address the financial aid/scholarship issue that will still allow him to save the clubs (since that's become the slogan of his campaign).

(To be honest with you, I'm not too sure that I find this episode to be that vague in what it was implying. It seems rather clear-cut to me. If you're using the game as the basis of your doubts, I wonder if they may be blending the routes in a way they didn't in the game.)
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:47   Link #518
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I think that's exactly the point of the episode, though. Ever since he read her manifesto, he's been listless and distraught. I think that's exactly the issue that they are driving at: he was (they were) so focused on saving his club that he didn't consider that she may have a good reason for needing the money (to help people like Isara get out of the rut she's in). So now, because he does care about Isara and others in her situation, he needs/wants to come up with another policy to address the financial aid/scholarship issue that will still allow him to save the clubs (since that's become the slogan of his campaign).

(To be honest with you, I'm not too sure that I find this episode to be that vague in what it was implying. It seems rather clear-cut to me. If you're using the game as the basis of your doubts, I wonder if they may be blending the routes in a way they didn't in the game.)
That was also my intended point against Enzo's post, which might be implying that Oojima would go on with the elections to save the clubs knowingly that he would dupe the low income students like Isara after finding out that the bullying problem is persistent in Takafuji.
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:18   Link #519
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I agree with RF - I really didn't think the episode was being vague at all. It seemed like the interpretation of Satsuki's argument was pretty obvious. As for this making Yuuki a "villain" I think that's exactly the point, that this will force him to reconsider the rightness of his position. But I'd also expect Satsuki to reconsider as she learns that there are good things about the clubs too.

Honestly, I don't really see anything "fiscally conservative" in Satsuki's platform at all, based on what we've seen so far. Looks like straight up redistribution of wealth to me.
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:41   Link #520
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Honestly, I don't really see anything "fiscally conservative" in Satsuki's platform at all, based on what we've seen so far. Looks like straight up redistribution of wealth to me.
Well, I don't know if they have the authority to "raise taxes" (or lower them), as it were, or if they have any provision for deficit spending in the first place, so there's a limit to how far we can take the analogies as far as "fiscal conservatism" goes. (All the candidates are probably obligated to have a balanced budget.) If it were something like, "eliminate the financial aid program and lower tuition, and provide incentives to private individuals and groups to donate to a scholarship fund", that might be the more overall-conservative position. Here, though, it's basically eliminating one flawed "social program" and replacing it with a new one that will cost more. But, because raising taxes isn't an option, they're trimming "the fat" in other areas (specifically, student clubs) to balance the budget. So, on a fiscal conservative scale, I'm not really sure how it measures, but it is introducing a new, more expensive social program that is paid for by the "taxpayers" (tuition).


On another topic, in addition to realizing Satsuki's point regarding her scholarship plan, his encounter with the "Air Sumo" club also makes him have to admit that there are actually "pointless" clubs out there after all, and his overriding policy of "I'll save all the clubs!" may not actually be The Right Thing To Do (TM). So I wonder if, in addition to thinking that Satsuki may be doing the right thing for the scholarship program, he's probably also thinking that she's got a point he can't deny about some of the clubs. In other words, it's sort of like "if I didn't have to come out against her, I'd probably vote for her because she's on the right track".
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