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Old 2012-07-30, 20:29   Link #29881
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem is that no matter how you look at it, the murder of Rosa and Maria, which kills Maria so early and, even more important, is missing the stakes, doesn't look like Yasu's style.
There's actually no rule that at the second twilight, two victims have to be gouged with stakes. Beatrice actually points this out in Our Confessions - it's a wildcard step where she can do anything she wants as long as it can be loosely justified as "tearing apart the two who are close."
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Old 2012-07-30, 20:54   Link #29882
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It seems androgen resistant males can develop breasts.
Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant to say it is possible for androgen resistant males to not have breasts (or gynecomastia in this case).

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The grandchildren were all sleeping in the same room with Battler, so they weren't available as first twilight victims either.
Actually, it's interesting how the cousins aren't ever really first twilight victims in Yasu's games, I wonder if it's because they are always around Battler, or because they have less reason than the siblings to play along with a plot/fake murder/whatever. In fact, they don't become victims until game 5, where assumedly they think they are trolling Erika...

Furthermore, we have all overlooked something hugely important. Episode three twilight 2 may be the first time Nanjo actually ever did some correct post-morteming in his life. Though it was weird how specific Ryu was about which part of the brainstem was pierced, a fact I'm not even sure you can tell from the outside all that well.
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Old 2012-07-30, 20:55   Link #29883
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It's also interesting how he plays it cool even when actual deaths are going on. Clearly he went to the Genji school for playing it close to your chest
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Old 2012-07-31, 06:45   Link #29884
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I mean, assuming the adults discussion of the epitaph happened at all, they were basically just shy of having the answer.
Nah, even the fantasy scenes has some really important information in them. Just because we're given almost direct hints on how to solve the epitaph, doesn't make those scenes any less fantasy.

I too have some troubles with EP3 because of EP2's "I will keep my promise."

However, I do like what people are saying about the stakes and the 2nd twilight. They were used in Yasu's stories... but they're never used like that in Tohya's. In fact, there's not a single instance in Tohya's forgeries where a stake was used to kill, like they were in Yasu's.
I mean, other than Ryu giving us a clue that maybe they are just props, I wonder if it means something more...
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Old 2012-07-31, 08:25   Link #29885
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there's not a single instance in Tohya's forgeries where a stake was used to kill, like they were in Yasu's.
I don't think they were used to kill in Yasu's either, there were often TIPs saying things like "it seems unlikely it was the murder weapon" or "could a human even drive this that deeply into a skull?"
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:14   Link #29886
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Hold on just a second. In the gut pulling out of episode 7, there was a scene implying Kinzo wanted to steal the gold, but shouldn't the theatregoing authority he got have prevented kinzo from not telling the truth?
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:47   Link #29887
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There's actually no rule that at the second twilight, two victims have to be gouged with stakes. Beatrice actually points this out in Our Confessions - it's a wildcard step where she can do anything she wants as long as it can be loosely justified as "tearing apart the two who are close."
She also doesn't technically have to kill anybody. There's no mention of the Second Twilight involving an actual death. You can interpret it that way, but it's a much less explicit instruction than "kill" or "none shall be left alive."

Strangely, this was never really explored, but I think it could be used to great effect in a forgery. Break up a marriage, or a relationship, or bring an intense rivalry to a head. Also, it technically says "the survivors" so it'd be neat to see if you could get people to kill each other. Anyway...
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:47   Link #29888
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Hold on just a second. In the gut pulling out of episode 7, there was a scene implying Kinzo wanted to steal the gold, but shouldn't the theatregoing authority he got have prevented kinzo from not telling the truth?
This is the truth...
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Old 2012-07-31, 13:01   Link #29889
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Hold on just a second. In the gut pulling out of episode 7, there was a scene implying Kinzo wanted to steal the gold, but shouldn't the theatregoing authority he got have prevented kinzo from not telling the truth?
That's not how Theatregoing Authority works. Nor do the red guts scene necessarily reflect the truth of what happened.
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:27   Link #29890
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I like to think that the forgeries have, at least, consistence in how Yasu is portrayed. The magic scene with the stakes might not be relevant but Rosa and Maria should have died as it was said and there were no stake on them.
The adults have no reason to lie on the absence of the stakes and the stakes weren't obviously used as a murdering weapon yet they were on the other corpses.

Either they are part of the ritual for whoever is writing the forgery or they're not.
It's so random they're edited out that I prefer to think there's a reason for it than just 'Tohya put them in the story at random but failed to get their significance in the ritual so he didn't use them in the second murder'.
I'm not saying it's inconsistent. I think Yasu (and everybody else) is portrayed fairly consistently.

What I'm saying is that Tohya was like "Maybe ... I can have a SECOND KILLER kill Rosaria! And it'll be a huge clue that they don't have stakes, like normal! ... huh, that means two stakes aren't being used. I wonder if I can tie that in to the magic narrative, somehow. After all, I was looking for a reason to introduce those bunny girls." and we get the Kyrolf badass hour as a result. That is exactly what I think the thought process was like.

...in fact, I've only just noticed that the only person who WAS shown to be actively murdered by a Stake in EP3 was Godha. Leftover detail, or subtle clue of his innocence?!
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There's actually no rule that at the second twilight, two victims have to be gouged with stakes. Beatrice actually points this out in Our Confessions - it's a wildcard step where she can do anything she wants as long as it can be loosely justified as "tearing apart the two who are close."
Yeah that Our Confessions 2nd Twilight was weird as hell - it was like, Shannon "disappearing" from a locked bathroom that looked like it'd exploded or something. It was pretty amusing that even the author commentary was like "this is an obvious trick. We'll just have someone raise the obvious doubts, the reader will doubt it because it's too obvious, and we all move on."

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not how Theatregoing Authority works. Nor do the red guts scene necessarily reflect the truth of what happened.
True - I figured the Theatregoing forced someone to give an account, but it would still be THEIR impression of it.

I mean, I don't think Kinzo was secretly behind the plot to steal the gold. I think he PONDERED such a plot and mentioned the idea, for which he was quickly berated and thus dropped. However, the idea stuck in the minds of the others. It still fits with Bern ripping the rose colored glasses off his past moral character and innocence in the whole thing.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:36   Link #29891
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Crazy crack theory. Maria is the killer of the 3rd arc. Eva went out and pushed Rosa into the fence and then strangled Maria. Maria fell unconscious and woke up later. She went into the mansion and found Kyrie and Rudolf and they wanted to help her. They even let her hold the gun which she used and accidently shot by Kyrie and Rudolf. Kyrie died of blood loss and Maria staked them just because. Then Maria found George and Shannon and shot them by accident and Shannon already wrote on the door. Then Maria crys and tries to find Natsuhi and Krauss. She does and hugs them so tightly she strangles them to death after they take her to the arbor to calm down. Then Maria wandered around the mansion and found Nanjo and accidently killed him with the gun then Nanjo fell on top of her and caused her to suffocate.
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Old 2012-07-31, 22:55   Link #29892
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
'
Well ... I'd kind of assumed they were in the study.
In EP1, Natsuhi just grabs one from ... somewhere.
In EP2, Yasu almost certainly just gives one to Rosa from upstairs somewhere.
In EP3, they're somewhere Kratsuhi can direct the adults to easily enough.
I can't remember... do they get the key of the study in Ep 3?

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
In fact, thinking about the thing... assuming Yasu figured "of course they'd announce it immediately", Shannon could just always keep a letter from Beatrice on her person acknowledging the end of the game. And she could always say something like "I recieved this just before the conference, and they threatened my life via the phone last week..."

And as someone suggested much earlier, there will be a P.S from Kinzo about how he's skipped town and plans to never return.
Probably she would deliver it in an Ep 5 fashion but yes, she might have one already ready.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There's actually no rule that at the second twilight, two victims have to be gouged with stakes. Beatrice actually points this out in Our Confessions - it's a wildcard step where she can do anything she wants as long as it can be loosely justified as "tearing apart the two who are close."
Well, I've only read the summary but didn't the 'she can do anything she wants as long as it can be loosely justified as "tearing apart the two who are close."' refers to how she deals with the parting part, not with the murdering part?

I would expect Beato to keep the 'killing' the same as in the other cases... as when at the end of the game Battler will find Shannon's body she'll have a stake near her.
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Old 2012-08-01, 03:51   Link #29893
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I have a question. Can someone tell me where the "Tohya created EP3-6" theory comes from? I've seen other people who seem to believe that he created everything in an effort to remember what happened. I'm okay with the "wrote EP3-6" part (I can't say I like it, but I will accept that it works); it's the "trying to remember what happened" part that confuses me about it. It seems contradictory to what little we know about Tohya.

I was wondering what the people on this thread think, and why, because it really doesn't make sense to me. If anyone has links with details about this theory, I'd appreciate it.
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Old 2012-08-01, 04:27   Link #29894
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The point is that we know that at one point Ikuko and Tohya started writing forgeries about the Rokkenjima incident.
We know that the forgeries describe details that only a person who was actually there could know.
So it follows that Tohya provided all those inputs and that can only work if he remembered them.

Why would Tohya decide to do that if he really wanted to forget everything? It's clear to me that despite his fear of becoming someone else he was still obsessed enough to want to know more about those memories he has in his mind.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:11   Link #29895
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'm not saying it's inconsistent. I think Yasu (and everybody else) is portrayed fairly consistently.

What I'm saying is that Tohya was like "Maybe ... I can have a SECOND KILLER kill Rosaria! And it'll be a huge clue that they don't have stakes, like normal! ... huh, that means two stakes aren't being used. I wonder if I can tie that in to the magic narrative, somehow. After all, I was looking for a reason to introduce those bunny girls." and we get the Kyrolf badass hour as a result. That is exactly what I think the thought process was like.

...in fact, I've only just noticed that the only person who WAS shown to be actively murdered by a Stake in EP3 was Godha. Leftover detail, or subtle clue of his innocence?!
I've also been wondering there's the chance Rosa and Maria were killed by other people. After all, Tohya's fragmented memories could lead him to suspect that in those fateful days something didn't went according to Yasu's plan, pushing him to add an extra killer.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I mean, I don't think Kinzo was secretly behind the plot to steal the gold. I think he PONDERED such a plot and mentioned the idea, for which he was quickly berated and thus dropped. However, the idea stuck in the minds of the others. It still fits with Bern ripping the rose colored glasses off his past moral character and innocence in the whole thing.
It's an interesting idea. He might have suggested it, then he was yelled at and so he gave up on it and then someone else decided to follow his plan anyway. It's interesting.

On a sidenote, I'll put this here since it's spoilerish, though maybe it's also fitting the manga section since it's about Ep 8.

I think Ryukishi is keeping his word, he's giving out solutions/bits of them in Ep 8.

The game Ange plays with the adults had been changed into a hide and seek instead than a quiz one.

I can't read kanji to save my life but, after Ange start counting we've Eva expressing her regrets about how she raised her in her thoughts then we've Natsuhi running toward her room to discover Beato leaving red prints on her door.

If you're wondering how she's doing it without dirtying her hands she's wearing gloves. ^_-

Then there's Natsuhi's apology and pics seems to imply clearly she pushed the servant to her death, as she's shown pushing her from behind (the theory that she pushes her merely because she wanted to keep her far and the servant ended up crashing on the fence and falling seems to be shoot down...).

We've then some explanations about what was going on in Ep 5 & 1 in regards to Natsuhi (phonecalls, how Beato in EP 1 painted the door because she saw the amulet and, likely, the other adults complicity, the final shot down between the two in Ep 1). It seems Beato had mixed feelings about hurting Natsuhi.

Natsuhi seems to be rather sorry but I guess Beato forgives her as in the novel... after they hear Eva and Ange coming close so they hid in Natsuhi's wardrobe. There's a cute Natsuhi/Beato moment then Eva and Ange, to persuade Natsuhi and Beato to come out from their hiding react Hideyoshi's 'death' in EP 5 with Eva faking to kill Ange. As Natsuhi rushes out to save Ange she discovers the trick (with this I'll say it's confirmed Hideyoshi faked his death, oh Natsuhi, if only you've come out of the wardrobe...).

Note: there's also a writing on the lower corner of the door Beato dirtied in red... no idea if it reveals a trick or Beato's feelings.

We then move to Rudolf confessing to Kyrie that Battler is her son, which, interesting enough, is heard by mistake by Ange.

I wonder if this happened in Prime as well.

And that's all for Ep 8 chap 6.
Definitely the manga is more satisfying in terms of handing the solutions... let's hope it'll keep with this.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:41.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:17   Link #29896
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Well, that's all really interesting...Any mention of why the marks on Natsuhi's door were also present in EP2?
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:32   Link #29897
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Well, that's all really interesting...Any mention of why the marks on Natsuhi's door were also present in EP2?
I can't really say as I can't read it, I'm just watching the picturess. It implied that in Ep 1 Beato decided she couldn't enter due to the charm... but anyway everything focus mostly on Natsuhi so, since in Ep 2 the marks were on that door when Gohda, George and Shannon were killed it's possible the solution will be handed when we'll deal with them...

On the other side it's possible Yasu draw them on the door merely to attract attention on that door and make things look weirder...

It's also showed a letter and its content before Beato and Natsuhi's facedown so it's possible Maria was honest and Natsuhi left in EP 1 after she read a letter... and I wonder if it's possible the gun Natsuhi was using had loaded safe bullets because there's a pic of it with bullets all around superimposed on the pics of Natsuhi pointing the gun. This would make was pretty easy for Beato to win the shootdown but that's just speculation. I can't really asy unless it's translated. Maybe they're just discussing the shootdown or the trick used if there was one.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:40.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:34   Link #29898
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Well considering that Ryukushi is doing all this I really hope he reveals other things. I wonder though why did Hideyoshi fake his death in Ep 5 when there were real murders going on. Did he know Natsuhi was in that closet and everyone just wanted to mess with her.
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:17   Link #29899
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Hideyoshi faking his death has always bugged me...Really, everyone was okay with Eva beating Natsuhi and breaking the furniture when they all knew no one was actually dead?
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Old 2012-08-01, 15:33   Link #29900
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Maybe just maybe Ep 5 is the evidence to support Hideyoshi is an accomplice in Ep 1 so that it doesn't conflict with Knox's 8th
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