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View Poll Results: Muv-Luv - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 11 22.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 24.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 38.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 6.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 6.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 2.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 2.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-31, 15:48   Link #121
Keroko
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It probably won't, but only because of plot-device moving things along. Being a top gun pilot of mechas explains why he can adapt to entirely different ideologies so quickly, but learning sword combat is a vastly different thing altogether.
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:54   Link #122
black knight iust
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top gun is the nickname macuronni gave him
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Old 2012-07-31, 16:36   Link #123
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It still holds true since he has a lot of talent and is just lacking in experience and getting his feet wet in real battle.
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Old 2012-07-31, 16:50   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It still holds true since he has a lot of talent and is just lacking in experience and getting his feet wet in real battle.
meaning hes a battle virgin

http://forums.animesuki.com/album.ph...ictureid=46822 thought its suppost to be different colored unless it hasnt been painted yet
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Old 2012-07-31, 17:24   Link #125
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Which makes Yui perfect for him since she can help ease him out of his battle virginity. Or she could go the Trauma route and just toss him in a life and death situation but that would be too risky and she's already putting a lot of effort in Yuuya because of his talent and being kin.
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Old 2012-07-31, 17:49   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Which makes Yui perfect for him since she can help ease him out of his battle virginity. Or she could go the Trauma route and just toss him in a life and death situation but that would be too risky and she's already putting a lot of effort in Yuuya because of his talent and being kin.
all she needs to do is schedural a week for him to transfer to the russian base for joint shurinai and terminator training sessions between the russians calling him jap and inia probly going jiiiiii at yuuya and cryska going doting big sister in front of him giving yuuya a noseblead

does anyone what nationality is yuuya's mom it would be funny if yuuya has a verietyy of nationalitys

Panzerklein@ if u have the right pilot u can
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Old 2012-07-31, 21:46   Link #127
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Which makes Yui perfect for him since she can help ease him out of his battle virginity. Or she could go the Trauma route and just toss him in a life and death situation but that would be too risky and she's already putting a lot of effort in Yuuya because of his talent and being kin.
As for Yui's affinity with Yuuya based on kinship, the Japanese people are in immediate danger of being decimated i.e. as a people and thier "way of life".

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does anyone what nationality is yuuya's mom it would be funny if yuuya has a verietyy of nationalitys

Panzerklein@ if u have the right pilot u can
As shown in the anime, Yuuya's mom seems to be a white Amercian i.e. most likely western European in origin.


[mod edit: game-based conversation removed]

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-01 at 01:03. Reason: edited
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:51   Link #128
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I want to remind everyone that ALL information from or discussion about the Muv-Luv Alternative game (and all related games) is expressly forbidden in this thread. This includes and any all information posted from game-related Wiki sources. This is made extremely clear in the opening post and in the sub-forum's spoiler policy. In addition, any information not found in the anime (but coming from the manga or novel for this work) must be placed under clear, properly-marked spoiler tags. Many bans will be issued within the next hour for violations of these rules.
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Old 2012-08-01, 07:35   Link #129
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That's what I said, she sees him as kin even though he was born in America he's still Japanese to her and considering that there are even less Japanese now since the BETA sacked Kyoto yeras ago in Episode 1/2 so it makes sense that she would be harder on her "kin" because they are dying out and she may not have the stomach to see one as talented as Yuuya die.
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Old 2012-08-01, 08:13   Link #130
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That's what I said, she sees him as kin even though he was born in America he's still Japanese to her and considering that there are even less Japanese now since the BETA sacked Kyoto yeras ago in Episode 1/2 so it makes sense that she would be harder on her "kin" because they are dying out and she may not have the stomach to see one as talented as Yuuya die.
That's still wrong though. If he doesn't want to be identified as japanese, and clearly prefers to be american, she shouldn't be trying to FORCE japanese customs, philosophies and stuff down his throat. Which is one of the big reasons her "You are a disgrace to japanese" line was over the line. Its like a black person wanting to be acknowledged as simply American, then you got people trying to shove down his african ancestry down his neck.

He doesn't even know his japanese half, that half walked out on him and his mother. So he has the RIGHT to not want to associate with it in anyway. So for Yui to see he has some japanese blood, and expect him to have no problem placing him self in the japanese way she sees fit isn't right. From the machine type, to his ideals on Soldier vs Warrior, to even how he acknowledges other japanese. And even with his arrogant ways, the point he brought up about machines being for veterans was a LEGIT point, but she didn't even try to hear it. For Yui, its literally "if it ain't the japanese way, it ain't the right way". That proves she's acting just as stubborn as Yuuya.
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Old 2012-08-01, 08:36   Link #131
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does anyone what nationality is yuuya's mom it would be funny if yuuya has a verietyy of nationalitys

Panzerklein@ if u have the right pilot u can
You're confusing ethnicity - race - with nationality - which county your are from.

Ethnically, Yuuya is Caucasion-Japanese; by nationality, he is an American.
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Old 2012-08-01, 09:12   Link #132
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It isn't wrong because no matter what he's still part Japanese so Yui has every right to see him as kin and thus expects more out of him because he's kin. You know since he is a second generation Japanese American so he still has a lot of Japanese in him. Not to mention that back in America he's seen as Japanese as well. It's just the way it is in TE. If you don't like it than this isn't the anime for you.


Yuuya only hates his Japanese side because he was discriminated against by his peers because he was that Japanese boy. Had he not been groomed to hate all things Japanese than he wouldn't have any issues with Yui considering him kin which Yui most likely believes Yuuya should consider an honor. After all it is one of the reasons she takes so much interest in him while she outright ignores the rest of his team.


Are you not watching the anime? Yui even says that Yuuya wasn't expected to master it right away but she was angry that he didn't understand why he was failing to pilot it right. Than in the latest episode she reveals that she's pushing him so hard because he has ridiculously high talent which he refuses to tap because of his groomed hatred of all things Japanese which leads to her giving him a personal lesson which works.


That's National Pride. It doesn't make her wrong because as far as she's concerned the Japanese way is the best way... For the Japanese. That's why she's insulted when Yuuya tries to tell her to rework the TSF to be more American which would make it impossible for the Japanese TSF pilots to adapt on the battlefield. They don't have the luxury of learning how to pilot a different type of TSF while Yuuya, as Yui has said, does because of the blood and sacrifice of those that came before him. That and he is a test pilot and at a very comfortable place while the rest of Eurasia is in a living hell.
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Old 2012-08-01, 10:40   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It isn't wrong because no matter what he's still part Japanese so Yui has every right to see him as kin and thus expects more out of him because he's kin. You know since he is a second generation Japanese American so he still has a lot of Japanese in him. Not to mention that back in America he's seen as Japanese as well. It's just the way it is in TE. If you don't like it than this isn't the anime for you.


Yuuya only hates his Japanese side because he was discriminated against by his peers because he was that Japanese boy. Had he not been groomed to hate all things Japanese than he wouldn't have any issues with Yui considering him kin which Yui most likely believes Yuuya should consider an honor. After all it is one of the reasons she takes so much interest in him while she outright ignores the rest of his team.


Are you not watching the anime? Yui even says that Yuuya wasn't expected to master it right away but she was angry that he didn't understand why he was failing to pilot it right. Than in the latest episode she reveals that she's pushing him so hard because he has ridiculously high talent which he refuses to tap because of his groomed hatred of all things Japanese which leads to her giving him a personal lesson which works.


That's National Pride. It doesn't make her wrong because as far as she's concerned the Japanese way is the best way... For the Japanese. That's why she's insulted when Yuuya tries to tell her to rework the TSF to be more American which would make it impossible for the Japanese TSF pilots to adapt on the battlefield. They don't have the luxury of learning how to pilot a different type of TSF while Yuuya, as Yui has said, does because of the blood and sacrifice of those that came before him. That and he is a test pilot and at a very comfortable place while the rest of Eurasia is in a living hell.
Your post here seems to be conflating quite a number of separate issues, to the point it needs to be broken down:

1. First off, statements like "If you don't like it, this isn't the anime for you," aren't productive. It may be a fact that Total Eclipse will subject us to a fair whack of pro-Imperial-Japanese, pro-Yamato Damashii-attitude drum-beating (novel readers will have a better idea). But saying "if you don't like the fact that the writers are racists, shut up and move on and stop discussing the point" isn't productive. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Man, I like the setting, the plot, and the mecha action, and most of these characters are pretty cool, but that underlying "we Japanese are awesome!!!" vibe gets in the way sometimes."

2. Secondly, there's a difference between acknowledging that racism exists and dismissing it. It's not at all unreasonable that strong nationalist feelings exist in the MLA world, given the various points. That doesn't make it less wrong, just explains why it exists.

3. Thirdly, there's a difference between racism and nationalism, as Goose pointed out. Yui's actions towards Yuuya are racist--he's judging him based on his part-Japanese ethnicity. (Frankly, given Japan's extraordinarily homogenous ethnicity, it's not surprising that nationality and ethnicity would get mixed together by a Japanese Imperial Guard.)

4. Yui's lack of interactions with the rest of Argos Flight have more to do with the fact that Yuuya's the lead test pilot--he's the one who's going to be providing the most relevant input for Japan's new TSF development--than any case of her dismissing them because they're not partly Japanese (note: that's a good thing; if she really was refusing to interact with them because they're not part-Japanese than it would raise her racist attitudes to Klan levels).

5. Even if Yuuya wasn't himself an anti-Japanese racist, he could easily still be offended by Yui's attitude, because Yui is utterly dismissing Yuuya's culture and upbringing in favor of his race--she expects him to be Japanese in the same way that she is Japanese, and that's a hellishly flawed assumption (see above about the confusion between the two coming out of an ethnically homogenous society).

*sigh* Ultimately, it really boils down to this: I really wish (yeah, yeah, I know it's a totally futile wish! ) that people would stop debating Yui-versus-Yuuya every episode. They're both deeply flawed people, they both have been right about some points and wrong about others, and they both need to have some character development to smooth out some of those bad attitudes, which it looks like they're actually starting to genuinely get. Now, if we check back in ten episodes from now and one of 'em's grown and the other is still exactly the same, well, then it might be time to rekindle the argument. But to me, what makes their conflicts interesting is the fact that it's coming out of mistakes on both sides, that there's some actual depth to it based on personal attitudes, cultural divides, and mechanical differences, that it's not just "A right, B wrong." Or in other words, there's some actual good writing going on here that makes the show worth coming back to each week, that it's not just giant robots and boobs.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:39   Link #134
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What do you all think Yui was trying to teach Yuuya? I think the core hint for this is where she responds to Yuuya saying the unit is "junk" - when she brings up "jinba ittai" (horse and rider as one, or words to that effect) and hopes Yuuya would be able to appreciate that. It seems Yui is happy enough with Yuuya's skills but feels like he's about to hit a wall in his progress or that there's a factor that's slowing down his progress. Basically, though Yuuya wants to master the machine he also hates it and distrusts it - he's only seeing the negatives and not seeing the positives.

On a side note, the first time I remember hearing "jinba ittai" was when Mazda started using the phrase regarding the development of a new MX-5 / Miata

It's also interesting to consider - if Yui's so clearly capable a pilot, why couldn't she be the test pilot herself. I've posted before about why we might have a US pilot trying to learn how to pilot a new TSF designed for Japanese pilots - it's not very efficient is it. It hasn't been started in the anime so far but I'm still guessing it was at the request of the Americans involved - they may have gone so far as to refuse to co-operate unless the main test pilot was American. If the Americans' true motivation for project prominence was to learn more about foreign TSF design then they would probably be delighted when Yui offered to use her Takemikazuchi as part of a "special" training session...


On a side another note, the following thought occurred to me: it's not uncommon for the "hero" in a series to have some "grouchy old mentor" type figure to help him learn - someone the hero tends to hate or resent... Kinda seems they almost want to make Yui into such a mentor figure... then turn her into love interest
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:41   Link #135
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I'll just say quoted for truth - Dezo has really hit the nail in the head.

The benefits of a legal education. ;p

Regards point 4, I'd also add that Argos are serving ss chase pilots, monitoring the 94 Second, gwthering data, recording video, benchmarking, so there'd be little rewson for Yui to talk to them and get second hand info when she can talk to Yuuya and his first hand input.

Something which the show hasn't glossed over, and I'm glad it's showing, is something I mentioned a while back - there will be friction because Yui represents the end user and is the custodian of Japanese interest for XFJ, but she also needs to take into account Yuuya's comments. At the same time, Yuuya needs to understand the requirements that the Japanese want to have, but at the same time he also needs to raise any issues he finds.

It's a balancing act for the both of them, and Yuuya initially isn't taking it well at all. Going from the easy to fly F-15 and F-22 to the twitchy Fubuki and Shiranui is a challenge, and one that he's finding it hard to adjust.

Yui actually has a good idea here - since words don't seem to work, use actions instead. I wonder if she'd taken correspondence courses in the Nanoha Takamachi School of Making Friends. or she's remembering how Kazusa Yamashiro was all the cold rival before the Defeat Equaled Friendship.

It also serves to show how dangerous Yui is, given that she took down Argos flight really fast.

All in all, decent ep, and it's shaping up better than I expected. I originally intended to watch just for the mecha and cute girls in translucent bodysuits, but the character drama is engaging in its own right.

Also, regards ethnicity and nationality, I am both Indian-Chinese and Malaysian. The former is because I have parents who are racially Indian and Chinese, the latter because I am a citizen of Malaysia. The problem most people have in seperating race from nationality is that most countries tend to conflate both of those concepts, especially a racially homogenus country like Japan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
What do you all think Yui was trying to teach Yuuya? I think the core hint for this is where she responds to Yuuya saying the unit is "junk" - when she brings up "jinba ittai" (horse and rider as one, or words to that effect) and hopes Yuuya would be able to appreciate that. It seems Yui is happy enough with Yuuya's skills but feels like he's about to hit a wall in his progress or that there's a factor that's slowing down his progress. Basically, though Yuuya wants to master the machine he also hates it and distrusts it - he's only seeing the negatives and not seeing the positives.

On a side note, the first time I remember hearing "jinba ittai" was when Mazda started using the phrase regarding the development of a new MX-5 / Miata
first time I heard that phrase, a ridiculously badass hotblooded German samurai mecha pilot had managed to create a tornade by swinging a BFS ridiculously fast, and cleaved a mecha dragon.

Quote:
It's also interesting to consider - if Yui's so clearly capable a pilot, why couldn't she be the test pilot herself. I've posted before about why we might have a US pilot trying to learn how to pilot a new TSF designed for Japanese pilots - it's not very efficient is it. It hasn't been started in the anime so far but I'm still guessing it was at the request of the Americans involved - they may have gone so far as to refuse to co-operate unless the main test pilot was American. If the Americans' true motivation for project prominence was to learn more about foreign TSF design then they would probably be delighted when Yui offered to use her Takemikazuchi as part of a "special" training session...
Quite possible, though again I'd add that out of all the pilots in Argos and assigned to XFJ, only Yuuya is an actual test pilot, with the others as combat pilots. It gives him a different perspective on things.

Quote:
On a side another note, the following thought occurred to me: it's not uncommon for the "hero" in a series to have some "grouchy old mentor" type figure to help him learn - someone the hero tends to hate or resent... Kinda seems they almost want to make Yui into such a mentor figure... then turn her into love interest
Yui's role seems to have been combined between an expy of Charlie and an expy of Iceman. which is amusing, given the ho yay in Top Gun.

But while I hold that Angrysex - or at least a thawing of the relationship - is somewhere in the future, I think this ep made it quite clear that Yuuya is tsundere for Shiranui Second.
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Old 2012-08-01, 13:43   Link #136
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It needed to be said, trying to place RL views isn't going to make this anime enjoyable at all since it isn't RL(even if it's set on Earth) and has a number of changes with things that aren't okay in RL but are perfectly fine in TE. Such as National Pride that would be considered racism in RL but it isn't at all in TE.

It doesn't change that none of them see it that way. Thus to them it isn't wrong because that is how things are in TE.

Again it isn't racist to Yui and she's only like that to Yuuya because she sees him as kin thus she expects BETTER of him than anyone else.

That doesn't stop her from talking to the others since she has had plenty of chances. She doesn't even bring them up at ALL when she talks to Yuuya. Simply put she doesn't care that much about them and doesn't expect them to be anything special while she takes an interest in Yuuya because he has talent and he's kin.

Yui doesn't care about that because just like the Americans she sees Yuuya as Japanese while he says he's only American and hates his Japanese-self. If anything she most likely sees it as a compliment to him since it means she feels he's worth the time while those she doesn't feel are worth her time are outright ignored which is everyone but Yuuya and her superiors thus far.

It also goes back to National Pride and that the Japanese are a dying breed and considering that we haven't see any other Japanese at the UN base yet it's easy to see why she would latch onto Yuuya since he's the only one she believes she can familiarize herself with considering he is kin.

Your wish isn't going to happen anytime soon unless it isn't mentioned anymore in new episodes which is unlikely.
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:05   Link #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
You're confusing ethnicity - race - with nationality - which county your are from.

Ethnically, Yuuya is Caucasion-Japanese; by nationality, he is an American.
im american but my family is the utz 57 veriety , german, itialian, english, french, scotch, irish native american , (i think that covers it it hard to remember )

Quote:
Or in other words, there's some actual good writing going on here that makes the show worth coming back to each week, that it's not just giant robots and boobs.
but those help
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:06   Link #138
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... So, destined_Fate, what you're saying is that Yui is being racist, but it's okay because in this world it's national pride.

Sorry. Given that the same scenario is currently playing out in my country - where, more and more, the politicians are defining Malaysian as being racially malay, and wnyone who isn't malay ought to be subservient to their Malay overlords, and ought to be second class citizens...

Given that this is happening in my own nation right now, do forgive me when I say that I strongly disagree with your opinion.

Bad behaviour needs to be sddressed whenever it occurs. Yui was right to call Yuuya out on his attitude in ep 4, but she's not a perfect person who hasn't done wrong.

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im american but my family is the utz 57 veriety , german, itialian, english, french, scotch, irish native american , (i think that covers it )
Truly what we'd call rojak over here.(savory dish essentially made by tossing a bunch of fruits into a bowl and adding a sweet sauce.)
I do hope that the anime will actually show both of them growing up.
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:09   Link #139
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It needed to be said, trying to place RL views isn't going to make this anime enjoyable at all since it isn't RL(even if it's set on Earth) and has a number of changes with things that aren't okay in RL but are perfectly fine in TE. Such as National Pride that would be considered racism in RL but it isn't at all in TE.

It doesn't change that none of them see it that way. Thus to them it isn't wrong because that is how things are in TE.

Again it isn't racist to Yui and she's only like that to Yuuya because she sees him as kin thus she expects BETTER of him than anyone else.
Again, you're mixing up two concepts. Whether something is or is not racist is an objective question and has nothing to do with time and place.

Yuuya is a racist--he dislikes Japanese people. Yui is a racist--she thinks Japanese people are better than everyone else. Both are racist attitudes. (And whether or not Yui thinks she's being racist is completely beside the point. A Ku Klux Klansman may think his attitudes simply reflect scientific and religious fact; that doesn't make him not a racist.)

Whether it can be expected for the average person to be a racist in the setting of MLA is a different question altogether. If you lived in the United States in 1900, you could expect a majority of white people to have racist attitudes about black people (or Asians, for that matter). That's a function of the culture existing in that time and place. Similarly, I completely understand (indeed, I posted on it last week) about how the extended wartime footing the world has been on would promote ultra-nationalist attitudes which would naturally encourage the development of pro-"home"-nation bigotry in most world cultures.

It's just that, understanding where Yuuya and Yui's racism comes from does not mean that they are not racists. Actually, the setting does a good job in explaining why these two people feel what they do--like I said, above, that's good writing at work. But that doesn't change the objective assessment of what those attitudes are at the present state of the current episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose
I do hope that the anime will actually show both of them growing up.
This, most definitely. Seeing some character development from both characters, letting them shed some of their old attitudes and grow as people would be very nice (and because they set the stage by showing why they have their present attitudes, they can then work from that to show such development).
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:17   Link #140
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Again you aren't understanding the point that in TE it isn't racism while in RL it would be racism. Once you have settled that you'll understand the characters much better than saying "That persons a racist because in RL that wouldn't be tolerated" yet in TE it is tolerated as "normal" and "national pride" which is quite rampant considering the Russians showing how they threat non-Russians.

Yuuya hates Japanese because that was what he was told to hate when all he wanted to do was fit in and be American. Thus he believes that if he discards his Japanese self and all things Japanese that his fellow Americans will accept him as an American.

Again you're making the mistake of using RL examples. In RL the KKK isn't tolerated at all by society yet in TE Yui's comments aren't considered racist in the least nor are Yuuya's and are tolerated by everyone else that thinks nothing of it or that it's out of the ordinary.


Society decides what is and isn't racist and in TE they don't consider those things racist while in RL our society would see them as racist.
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