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Old 2012-08-02, 00:42   Link #81
Rising Dragon
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Maybe we should all agree to stop using a potentially vague (if the differing opinions here are any indication) phrase like "in cold blood" and use more objective statements like "murdered civilians" or similar?
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Old 2012-08-02, 00:53   Link #82
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post

This much I can agree on, but it goes both ways--what he's experienced doesn't justify any possible acts of mass murder he could commit. For example, the millions of people who were murdered in horrific events such as the Holocaust were terrible, terrible acts, but did people let the victims do the same to the race or nation of people whose members did those same acts? Generally, no they weren't allowed, and the few times where it DID come to pass were also seen as horrible, condemnable acts.

So yes, the Vagans' suffering does not justify their actions during the war. Likewise, Flit's suffering would not justify any similar actions. Just because he hasn't done them yet doesn't change that simple fact.
Exactly. The perfect example is Yugoslavia, there was genocide carried out by different sides, and it didn't matter if it was done as retaliation or not. It was wrong.

I met a professor in college who was from there and she worked as a translator for the UN in the courts following the war. She told us of a case where a man turned on his muslim neighbor, raped her and her daughters then ordered the militiamen he was in charge of to take them and her son outside and execute them. They kept her as a sex slave. After the war, the woman survived and sought out the man. She confronted him in his house in front of his wife and children, then proceeded to shoot his wife dead and his 10 and 8 year old sons, before shooting him in the head.
Was she justified in murdering two innocent children and their mother because her own children were raped and murdered?
Reddy if you got the answer to that, let me know.
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Old 2012-08-02, 01:31   Link #83
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What you are planning to trap in a hear say scenario? Are you even supposed to tell that?

Look whatever your beef with the protagonist character since you lost (badly) in debating the other character, Flit is still developing. If Flit kills in cold blood fine you are right. But he hasn't killed a non-combatant so what he says and what he does are different. You are overblowing it out of proportion.
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Old 2012-08-02, 05:28   Link #84
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I wish you Flit apologists would apply that to the Vagans too, because iirc you guys were saying Fram was a cold blooded murderer by association with Zeheart even though she doesn't have a single enemy combatant kill to her name, much less civilians.
Nobody said Fram was a cold blooded murderer Revolutionist, stop spreading lies.

However what we are saying is if we apply YOUR definition of genocidal manic just by saying and/or thinking it like you do to Flit, then Fram, who supports the idea that the war now is so far gone the deep end that stopping it now would be shaming those Vagan's whom had fallen and that she must keep fighting all the while yelling it out in anger to Kio, then Fram would qualify to be some cold blooded genocidal manic (because let's face it, it's not possible for Fram to not know the Vagan military method of killing civilians!) by YOUR definition, however what you are basically doing is accusing people of thought crimes with this standard of yours. And on the flip side, if you let Fram off the hook for haven't done anything yet, then by the same standards you MUST let Flit off the hook as well because he hasn't killed any non-combatants either.

Think about that.

Also can the Vagan military apologist address the issue of Vagan's murdering civilians? I'm sick of this point being dodge while the Flit haters keep trying to accuse Flit of genocidal thought crime when the Vagan military has actually done it. Thanks.

And let me throw this one out - there is no shame or dishonour in killing people who murders innocent civilians - even if those were doing it "by order". What Flit had done in Gen 1 when he fought those Vagan MS is exactly that, and any Vagan pilots getting angry for the enemy stopping them and their fellow comrades killing civilians is much more of a monster than Flit ever is.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-08-02 at 05:54.
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Old 2012-08-02, 05:59   Link #85
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Nobody said Fram was a cold blooded murderer Revolutionist, stop spreading lies.

However what we are saying is if we apply YOUR definition of genocidal manic just by saying and/or thinking it like you do to Flit, then Fram, who supports the idea that the war now is so far gone the deep end that stopping it now would be shaming those Vagan's whom had fallen and that she must keep fighting all the while yelling it out in anger to Kio, then Fram would qualify to be some cold blooded genocidal manic by YOUR definition, however what you are basically doing is accusing people of thought crimes with this standard of yours. And on the flip side, if you let Fram off the hook for haven't done anything yet, then by the same standards you MUST let Flit off the hook as well because he hasn't killed any non-combatants either.

Think about that.

Also can the Vagan military apologist address the issue of Vagan's murdering civilians? I'm sick of this point being dodge while the Flit haters keep trying to accuse Flit of genocidal thought crime when the Vagan military has actually done it. Thanks.
The one who needs to stop spreading lies is you. My definition or yours? All I said was that neither Zeheart nor Fram have expressed any desire to exterminate their enemy, Flit has.

And what the hell is a thought crime? What Flit is doing is called hate speech, he's dehumanizing a group of which is not a part of, and he is calling for their extermination. I don't know what culture you were brought up in, but that is wrong.

Do you go around asking for the extermination of say, homosexuals? According to you that would be OK so long as you don't actually start killing them....

This is not a joke. We're talking about human beings here, and if you openly express desire to exterminate a group of people, we as human beings have a responsibility to call you out on it and stop you before you actually do it.

Your attitude is disgusting to say the least, and I fear it might be all too common because there have been so many genocides throughout history. Mostly due to the fact that when people, much like Flit, expressed their intentions to exterminate ( they use this word exactly because they don't consider their victims human) a group, people much like you, ignored it and gave them a pass.

And for the 100th time, we're not saying what the Vagans did is wrong, all we're saying is what they did does not justify Flit wanting to commit genocide. They vagans' actions were wrong. Flit's intentions are also wrong. Get that that through your head.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:17   Link #86
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Flits failure to make any reference to Yurin and his past during the fight with Fram's Fawnfarsia has to be the first time I can recall being severely disappointed in Age. Even just a quick flash or him wincing maybe struggling a little would have been a neat sentiment but nope nothing whatsoever. For the first time the show itself has lead credence to the idea that the writers might be thinking on a narrow scope when it comes to the characters and their emotional depth and it makes me wonder what the point of bringing the Farsia back is other than to have the girl pilot the girly model.

Dunno I'm not like some huge Yurin fan but she did have the greatest impact of anybody on Flits life. Asem payes tribute to Wolf, Kio is shown to remember and continue to be haunted by Shanalua and Lu so why not Yurin. Sorry but this one REALLY bothers may cause Gundam is usually so good about giving the fallen their due recognition when the time is appropriate and I can't think of a morr appropriate,time than that moon battle.
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Old 2012-08-07, 16:50   Link #87
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Uhm maybe there are other Farsia units already seen by Flit during his young adult years? Not quite sure, but the AGE game will answer it )
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Old 2012-08-07, 17:57   Link #88
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
What you are planning to trap in a hear say scenario? Are you even supposed to tell that?

Look whatever your beef with the protagonist character since you lost (badly) in debating the other character, Flit is still developing. If Flit kills in cold blood fine you are right. But he hasn't killed a non-combatant so what he says and what he does are different. You are overblowing it out of proportion.
Your lack of reading comprehension is appalling.

to even suggest that you defeated me, "badly" in an argument is laughable considering you never fully grasped the point I was making and just argued something completely different.

All I said was that Flit openly calling for (genocide) was wrong, regardless of his personal losses at the hands of the Vagans. You failed to prove otherwise, that is, that openly calling for genocide isn't wrong. So, if anyone was beaten, it was you.
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Old 2012-08-07, 18:48   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Flits failure to make any reference to Yurin and his past during the fight with Fram's Fawnfarsia has to be the first time I can recall being severely disappointed in Age. Even just a quick flash or him wincing maybe struggling a little would have been a neat sentiment but nope nothing whatsoever. For the first time the show itself has lead credence to the idea that the writers might be thinking on a narrow scope when it comes to the characters and their emotional depth and it makes me wonder what the point of bringing the Farsia back is other than to have the girl pilot the girly model.

Dunno I'm not like some huge Yurin fan but she did have the greatest impact of anybody on Flits life. Asem payes tribute to Wolf, Kio is shown to remember and continue to be haunted by Shanalua and Lu so why not Yurin. Sorry but this one REALLY bothers may cause Gundam is usually so good about giving the fallen their due recognition when the time is appropriate and I can't think of a morr appropriate,time than that moon battle.
I think it has been so long. Yeah, Yurin's death did impacted him; his saviour goal was remodeled by her death. But he also learned afterward not to be deceived when it comes to facing the Vagans. Add that 50 years since that time, I think Flit has already has that hardened resolve.
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Old 2012-08-07, 18:50   Link #90
Rising Dragon
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I could see Flit sorta having that trauma if he had been the one to land the killing blow on Yurin's Farsia.

He didn't, so he really doesn't have anything to make him hesitate facing the Fawn Farsia, especially with a Vagan piloting it.
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Old 2012-08-07, 19:40   Link #91
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Flits failure to make any reference to Yurin and his past during the fight with Fram's Fawnfarsia has to be the first time I can recall being severely disappointed in Age. Even just a quick flash or him wincing maybe struggling a little would have been a neat sentiment but nope nothing whatsoever. For the first time the show itself has lead credence to the idea that the writers might be thinking on a narrow scope when it comes to the characters and their emotional depth and it makes me wonder what the point of bringing the Farsia back is other than to have the girl pilot the girly model.
Nah Flit's not the kind of guy that would go overboard over something like that. I mean this is a guy whose life was literally torn apart when he was just a boy so he matured quickly.

Generally speaking the guy handles himself pretty well. Best example would be Decil who he considered not even bothering with and let the ship's autoguns take care of him.
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