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View Poll Results: Muv-Luv - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 11 22.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 24.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 38.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 6.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 6.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 2.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 2.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-01, 14:46   Link #141
black knight iust
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y do people have to conect anime to the real world
te is set about 11 years befor now but the events that lead up to it took place between the 60 and 90 (cant remember exaclty when )so i can see racism as an issieu and im not complaining about it


Quote:
Truly what we'd call rojak over here.(savory dish essentially made by tossing a bunch of fruits into a bowl and adding a sweet sauce.)
I do hope that the anime will actually show both of them growing up.
wonder how that tasts hopfully not like me
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Old 2012-08-01, 14:49   Link #142
Wild Goose
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Some things, Destined_Fate, are wrong no matter what.

I am of chinese ancestry. We used to bind the feet of little girls because we believed that small feet were beautiful. You know what happens when you tightly bind little girl's feet? By the time she's ten, she's practically crippled, with deformed feet. She doesn't walk, she shuffles slowly, in constant pain.

But my soceity said it was okay, so there is nothing wrong in crippling the feet of little girls, for the rest of their lives.

Arab culture is tribal based. Men of the tribe can steal, rape, murder - so long as it is for the tribe's interests, everything is permitted, nothing is forbidden. But if a girl of the tribe is raped by her own family, she is cast put and killed for bringing dishonor to the tribe, when she was just a victim.

But that's what their soceity says, so I guess it's okay.

I'm also of Indian heritage. Indians prefer boys to girls. Girls are considered useless. In the villages, baby girls will be killed because they are not as precious as boys.

But that's what their soceity says, so you're excusing this bad behaviour.

I'm going to quote someone who sums up my thoughts on this:

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- No, you move."

Some things are objectively wrong. We should recognise bad behaviour that is being practised by the characters.
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Old 2012-08-01, 15:07   Link #143
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Society decides what is and isn't racist and in TE they don't consider those things racist while in RL our society would see them as racist.
No, that's where you're making your mistake. Racism is an objective question: "Does a person believe one race is superior to a different race?" It's a yes or no question. Social and cultural background, or context, have nothing to do with it.

Society does not determine if racism exists. It only can determine whether racism is seen as a bad thing by that society. This does not change whether the society is real or fictional. Picking an example out of the air, in Dragon Age there are racist attitudes in human society against elves. In real life, during WWII there was nationalism against Germans and Japanese (combined with racism against the Japanese). Society at that time said it was fine to act that way. Now, society says that we were wrong back then to have those attitudes. Note also that it's completely possible that in TE, perhaps the people of that world (if they haven't been nommed up by BETA by then) will look back at 2001 and say "Man, we were a bunch of racist dicks back then, weren't we?" Heck, the character development we're seeing with Yuuya right here and now in this episode is to begin to work past his anti-Japanese prejudice (at least as far as to begin to value Japanese TSFs).

Those are value judgments--right and wrong, good and evil--and they fluctuate over time. But you cannot say that society can determine that bigotry and prejudice don't exist just because the society as a whole happens to approve of them.

Edit: With specific reference to Goose's ninja post, it's further only to be expected that we as individuals watching the show will decide that certain elements of the things depicted there are good or bad depending on what we believe as people. If the ethics depicted by the show are out of whack with what we think, we're justified in saying so and explaining why.
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Old 2012-08-01, 16:39   Link #144
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and elt's not forget that just because a show has horrible people it does not mean it is a horrible show, otherwise nobody would like shakespeare.
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Old 2012-08-01, 17:23   Link #145
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And again you're wrong for trying to force you RL views in a setting that is vastly different. To them it isn't racism it's just business as usual.

No you're wrong. Society decides it(Which is why things that were okay in the past are no longer deemed okay today because Society evolved over time and decided that those things are wrong. While back than they were acceptable). We can say that the Romans were racist but back than they never even saw it as such nor did society or their defeated enemies. It's just how they did things. So no, it isn't racism because society in TE doesn't see it as racism nor do they care all that much about it. Thus Yui saw nothing wrong with berating Yuuya because as far as she's concerned he is kin.

Let's take an example than. Let's say in the future it's considered a grave sin to have a family because of overpopulation issues yet in right now it isn't an issue and no one even thinks about something like that. Sure it's a sin in the future to have a family but at this time period it isn't since society has no issues with families.

And they already showed you why things are out of wake. Important events that helped shape our world happen MUCH differently in TE than there's the BETA threat as well. That's why things are different and why it's foolish to expect things to be like RL anyway despite this very major changes.
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Old 2012-08-01, 18:03   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Some things are objectively wrong. We should recognise bad behaviour that is being practised by the characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And again you're wrong for trying to force you RL views in a setting that is vastly different.
I think I've rarely seen International Politics so aptly summarized.

As a mod, I just want to ask everyone to take it easy on this morality/ethics debate, because it could easily get even more heated and spin out of control. This is the sort of stuff real life wars are fought over. I think the discussion is interesting, but it's probably better to give it a rest. The views expressed are pretty clear, so you may all just need to agree to disagree for now.
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Old 2012-08-01, 18:09   Link #147
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post

Edit: With specific reference to Goose's ninja post, it's further only to be expected that we as individuals watching the show will decide that certain elements of the things depicted there are good or bad depending on what we believe as people. If the ethics depicted by the show are out of whack with what we think, we're justified in saying so and explaining why.
Agree. From my moral code and ethical beliefs, I consider Yui wrong and quite frankly a bitch. Some might disagree with me, and that's cool. But you can't and won't make me believe I was wrong, because its as you said, objectively IMPOSSIBLE to be wrong on a topic like this.

So I am all for Relentless's suggestion on agreeing to disagree. And quite frankly, I find nothing wrong with that. Its good that people can form their own opinions and make well thought out reasons why they want to defend it.
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Old 2012-08-01, 18:29   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
No, that's where you're making your mistake. Racism is an objective question: "Does a person believe one race is superior to a different race?" It's a yes or no question.
Does Yui believe that the Japanese race is superior to all others, or does she simply care most about the Japanese people because that's her race/nationality? In other words, perhaps she just feels a need to stand up for her people regardless of how she feels about our races/nationalities.

Racist is a very strong term, and while I do see a lot of nationalism in this show, I'm not sure I'd go so far to call either of the major characters a racist.

Also, saying that Yuuya is racist against the Japanese seems a bit odd to me, as he's half-Japanese (racially) himself.


In any event, Dezo, I think you're throwing around a very loaded term a bit haphazardly on this thread.
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Old 2012-08-01, 21:24   Link #149
Wild Goose
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[mod edit: Removed flamebait that revives old debate]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Does Yui believe that the Japanese race is superior to all others, or does she simply care most about the Japanese people because that's her race/nationality? In other words, perhaps she just feels a need to stand up for her people regardless of how she feels about our races/nationalities.

Racist is a very strong term, and while I do see a lot of nationalism in this show, I'm not sure I'd go so far to call either of the major characters a racist.

Also, saying that Yuuya is racist against the Japanese seems a bit odd to me, as he's half-Japanese (racially) himself.
It's a very fine line to follow, particularly, as Dezo noted, Japan has an absurdly ethnically homogenous society, which causes them to conflate the racial identity with national identity. I'm seeing something very similar happening in Malaysia, actually - for all the talk of "1 Malaysia" in unity, the government has been pushing an ageda of Malay overlordship and a sense that if you are not Malay, you are not a Malaysian.

That said, Yuuya is being racist - while he's half-Japanese, he hates his Japanese half, and his reaction towards Yui is similar to the reactions of those who were racist towards him.

It is possible for someone who is mixed-race to be racist towards the part of them that they hate. I have some first hand experience of that.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-02 at 03:04. Reason: to let the thread move on
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Old 2012-08-02, 03:08   Link #150
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Thank goodness the next Episode is a beach fan-service one, literally. It should be hard to disagree about scantly clad bodies, right?

Lets draw the line at comparing racial body types though. That way the dark side leads to.
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Old 2012-08-02, 06:34   Link #151
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Spoiler for Episode 6 preview images:
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Old 2012-08-02, 07:06   Link #152
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Thank goodness the next Episode is a beach fan-service one, literally. It should be hard to disagree about scantly clad bodies, right?
...You have never seen the dread terror of a "mai waifu" debate, have you? Trust me, these racial debates are candies and flowers compared to a "mai waifu" debate.
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Old 2012-08-02, 07:16   Link #153
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Why does Yui look... Happy'ish? Strange not seeing her scowling.
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Old 2012-08-02, 08:36   Link #154
black knight iust
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@Destined_Fate she might try saying at the begining of the ep she was screwwing with yuuya the whole time or something
or maby her job of being a bitch is over
and where do u get those
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:30   Link #155
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Originally Posted by black knight iust View Post
@Destined_Fate she might try saying at the begining of the ep she was screwwing with yuuya the whole time or something
or maby her job of being a bitch is over
and where do u get those
Yui has a personal stake in Japan's TSF designs i.e. her father helped designed the Zuikaku (stated in Ep01).
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:45   Link #156
black knight iust
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Yui has a personal stake in Japan's TSF designs i.e. her father helped designed the Zuikaku (stated in Ep01).
i know i was just saying mayby now she will go from being a bitch to something else hoping tsundere
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:56   Link #157
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bitchdere ?
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Old 2012-08-02, 10:12   Link #158
black knight iust
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bitchdere ?
wonder how thier gonna start the next ep
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Old 2012-08-02, 10:20   Link #159
grevierr
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Originally Posted by black knight iust View Post
wonder how thier gonna start the next ep
Going by the last two episodes

Ep04: Flies the Type-97, crashes in the woods. Tells Yui its a piece of Japanese Crap.
Ep05: Flies the Type-94, crashes in the city. Tells Yui its still a piece of Japanese Crap.

Ep06: Rides a Surfing Board, crashes in the waves. Tells Yui its a piece of Japanese Crap.
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Old 2012-08-02, 10:24   Link #160
black knight iust
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Going by the last two episodes

Ep04: Flies the Type-97, crashes in the woods. Tells Yui its a piece of Japanese Crap.
Ep05: Flies the Type-94, crashes in the city. Tells Yui its still a piece of Japanese Crap.

Ep06: Rides a Surfing Board, crashes in the waves. Tells Yui its a piece of Japanese Crap.
kinda trying to go with something thier arnt ya
hoping rides a surfing board crashes due to getting nailed in the face by volyball
does anybody know who the other russian pilot was in the last ep
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