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Old 2012-08-02, 08:04   Link #801
kazzuya13
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If this novel did turned out to be just a dream then that would be a huge stinker.
Ain't it?...
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:10   Link #802
justpassingby
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There are another two people who believed that Yoshiharu came from the future (Frois and Bontenmaru).

Spoiler for Vol 3:
I believed I saw a glimpse of a sentence saying that Frois knows the way to send Yoshiharu back to his era when I first skimmed the novels earlier. Though, I'm still with my stand that he/they are dreaming the Warring States era.

<----------Currently at vol 4. How the hell did you guys find the time to read?
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Last edited by justpassingby; 2012-08-02 at 11:27. Reason: grammars :P
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:16   Link #803
Athena
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Hey, I'm only at V2, 'kay?
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Old 2012-08-02, 09:45   Link #804
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazzuya13 View Post
I think the Honouji incident will be more likely a wedding event instead.
That's actually quite possibly the funniest version of events I can imagine.. The protagonist would be so floored. Rushing back to the temple, worrying about a catastrophe.. and they're waiting there to marry him!
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Old 2012-08-02, 10:22   Link #805
MrTerrorist
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Got two questions that might be spoilerish.

Spoiler for Questions:
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Old 2012-08-02, 11:23   Link #806
Undertaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassingby View Post

<----------Currently at vol 4. How the hell did you guys find the time to read?

Well, in my case, I've been interested in the series since last year and has been reading the Chinese fan-subs for a while in hope of the series to get picked up. Finally I my wish when the anime starts, now I just need to wait until they release a few volumes and I can order them online....


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Got two questions that might be spoilerish.

Spoiler for Questions:

As far as I know:


Spoiler for 1::



Spoiler for 2::
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Old 2012-08-02, 12:12   Link #807
aigomorla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechatrill View Post
I think we have different definitions of what "butterfly effect" means...

"Butterfly effect", by my understanding, means that a seemingly small action may have a large effect over time, much like how a butterfly flapping its wings may cause a hurricane on the other side of the world at some time in the future. It doesn't have anything to do with time travel or paradox or whatever...
The butterfly effect only applies when you dont create alternate universe for the time traveler.

The time traveler hence then can cause paradoxes.
The key word is paradox. You light a fire in a forest and accidentally burn it down... go back to the future, the forest is gone. The tiny match u accidentally dropped has lead a ripple effect which changes history in your personal timeline. Ie.. the small flutter of a butterfly wing, can cause a typhoon on the other side of the world. (this only holds in single universe)

In a multi-verse, time has already accounted for the MC to travel into a different universe and his actions were already recorded. Hence no paradox or butterfly effect. Its best not to even think of the multiverse as time travel, which is what the MC realized when people that should of died, didnt die.

The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of multiple possible universes (including the historical universe we consistently experience)that together comprise everything that exists and can exist: the entirety of space, time, matter, and energy as well as the physical laws and constants that describe them.


Because time has already RECORDED his actions.
And we are watching his story in the new universe which already recorded his actions.


Time travel is a PITFA.
There are too many rules you have to be bound by.
Hence why paralell or multiverse rules tend to be easier to write about.
Because the person who controls the multiverse is the author himself, and not history.
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Old 2012-08-02, 14:49   Link #808
Mechatrill
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Uh... What?

I'm sorry, but I don't think I quite understood just what your main point is... My assertion is that the butterfly effect is a mathematical phenomenon, as part of Chaos Theory, pertaining to cause and effect relationships. While it is popularly invoked in fiction depicting time travel, there is no actual direct relationship.

If your argument is to establish that this novel depicts a parallel universe rather than any real time travel, then I do agree with that (the fact that it's Nobuna and not NobunaGA is a dead giveaway there).

Are we arguing about the particularities of the definition of the term "butterfly effect" as pertaining to multiverse theory and temporal mechanics? If so, then I'll be retiring from this argument, since I do not actually see any direct connection between the two in the first place (nor do I actually have any real education on the later two subjects to be able to formulate an argument)...
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Old 2012-08-02, 16:06   Link #809
ReaperxKingx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechatrill View Post
Uh... What?

I'm sorry, but I don't think I quite understood just what your main point is... My assertion is that the butterfly effect is a mathematical phenomenon, as part of Chaos Theory, pertaining to cause and effect relationships. While it is popularly invoked in fiction depicting time travel, there is no actual direct relationship.

If your argument is to establish that this novel depicts a parallel universe rather than any real time travel, then I do agree with that (the fact that it's Nobuna and not NobunaGA is a dead giveaway there).

Are we arguing about the particularities of the definition of the term "butterfly effect" as pertaining to multiverse theory and temporal mechanics? If so, then I'll be retiring from this argument, since I do not actually see any direct connection between the two in the first place (nor do I actually have any real education on the later two subjects to be able to formulate an argument)...
There are many definitions of Butterfly effects. I think more generally of what people perceive what a Butterfly does when you time travel of some sort.

Butterfly Effect one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Butterfly Effect two
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterf...opular_culture
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Old 2012-08-02, 16:10   Link #810
aigomorla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechatrill View Post
Uh... What?
The butterfly effect.
you modify the past so when you go into the future things are different.
The ripple of your actions has changed the outcome of the future in short.

Multi-Universe
It doesnt matter what you do, because the future isnt written yet.
Nor does it matter what you do, because the future has already accounted for you being there.


For the butterfly effect to apply, the MC needs to be in his own universe, with nobunaga a male. Where his actions changes the future he's in. The fact History is different B4 he even went back in time is what kills the butterfly effect.
Because him being there or not wouldnt effect his real timeline, because its not even his world.

Thats not the case, the MC is in a completely different universe, where the future isnt written, so him tinkering whatsoever doesnt matter. The MC is in short an Alien more so then a Time Traveler, and he ended up on a world just like the earth, with near history events, but that ISNT the MC's earth.
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Old 2012-08-02, 16:23   Link #811
ReaperxKingx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aigomorla View Post
The butterfly effect.
you modify the past so when you go into the future things are different.
The ripple of your actions has changed the outcome of the future in short.

Multi-Universe
It doesnt matter what you do, because the future isnt written yet.
Nor does it matter what you do, because the future has already accounted for you being there.


For the butterfly effect to apply, the MC needs to be in his own universe, with nobunaga a male. Where his actions changes the future he's in. The fact History is different B4 he even went back in time is what kills the butterfly effect.
Because him being there or not wouldnt effect his real timeline, because its not even his world.

Thats not the case, the MC is in a completely different universe, where the future isnt written, so him tinkering whatsoever doesnt matter. The MC is in short an Alien more so then a Time Traveler, and he ended up on a world just like the earth, with near history events, but that ISNT the MC's earth.
Pretty sure that Butterfly effect is not happening here. It is already pointed out that the Sengoku Era where Sagara is, is vastly different from his world. Though the Butterfly effect still happens here in a different meaning. Like in vol 5, Sagara while in the spell of Takeda's "I have Boobs, you must obey", he let out she was going to be assassinated, which did happen later in vol 5 but only a failed assassination. If Sagara didn't say anything, Takeda may have been assassinated, but because of him that didn't happen.
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Old 2012-08-02, 16:46   Link #812
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Spoiler for 1.:
Supposing that is actual history, we still have about a decade of the original time like to go before that happens.
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Old 2012-08-02, 17:26   Link #813
aigomorla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
Pretty sure that Butterfly effect is not happening here. It is already pointed out that the Sengoku Era where Sagara is, is vastly different from his world. Though the Butterfly effect still happens here in a different meaning. Like in vol 5, Sagara while in the spell of Takeda's "I have Boobs, you must obey", he let out she was going to be assassinated, which did happen later in vol 5 but only a failed assassination. If Sagara didn't say anything, Takeda may have been assassinated, but because of him that didn't happen.
No... Ur not understanding time travel.

Did the MC go back in time?
YES he did... However... Its not the time he's from.

Hence he himself might not even exist in the future because its not his future.

Hence the butterfly effect doesn't work because we don't know if the time and universe he's from was already drafted with him being there.

Its not a butterfly if time has already recorded it.

theres also that one occurance where a general was suposed to die, yet she ran away to China!
this was one of the points according to the spoiler which lead the MC to believe, maybe things arent exactly like the universe he came from, and his foresight might be over.


In short.. and last comment about this time thing.. as its complicated.
For it to be a butterfly effect, it has to be his future, not a random future on a world far far away.
Which multipul universe states he is.

Basically the butterfly effect only works if ur on the same disk as your real universe, and breaks apart the moment u step onto a different universe.
The ripples wont reach the other disk. And we dont know if history has recorded him coming onto the other disk and him being part of that universe which was already written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mu...-_level_II.svg
Because Physics can even change once u step onto a different disk. Even Magic is possible, hence the term, alternate universe.
You can even see a Purple Flying Hippo once u change disk, or Barny the purple dinosaur could be a serial killer even.

Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-02 at 18:15.
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Old 2012-08-02, 18:52   Link #814
Mikey-kun
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+20 pages

... You guys sure chat fast.... -_-

About 20 pages behind, let the reading begin!
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Old 2012-08-02, 19:11   Link #815
ReaperxKingx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aigomorla View Post
No... Ur not understanding time travel.

Did the MC go back in time?
YES he did... However... Its not the time he's from.

Hence he himself might not even exist in the future because its not his future.

Hence the butterfly effect doesn't work because we don't know if the time and universe he's from was already drafted with him being there.

Its not a butterfly if time has already recorded it.

theres also that one occurance where a general was suposed to die, yet she ran away to China!
this was one of the points according to the spoiler which lead the MC to believe, maybe things arent exactly like the universe he came from, and his foresight might be over.


In short.. and last comment about this time thing.. as its complicated.
For it to be a butterfly effect, it has to be his future, not a random future on a world far far away.
Which multipul universe states he is.

Basically the butterfly effect only works if ur on the same disk as your real universe, and breaks apart the moment u step onto a different universe.
The ripples wont reach the other disk. And we dont know if history has recorded him coming onto the other disk and him being part of that universe which was already written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mu...-_level_II.svg
Because Physics can even change once u step onto a different disk. Even Magic is possible, hence the term, alternate universe.
You can even see a Purple Flying Hippo once u change disk, or Barny the purple dinosaur could be a serial killer even.
That is what I meant, what he does in the Sengoku Era in that world will not affect anything in his world's history. Two worlds, essentially.

The butterfly you speak of isn't the one I am talking about. You did read my post closely right.
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Old 2012-08-02, 23:57   Link #816
aigomorla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
That is what I meant, what he does in the Sengoku Era in that world will not affect anything in his world's history. Two worlds, essentially.

The butterfly you speak of isn't the one I am talking about. You did read my post closely right.
RAWR!

yes i did reaper...

Your going off this notion here:
Therefore, no one who travels into the past could ever return to the same version of reality he or she had come from and
could have therefore not been able to travel back in time in the first place, which would create a phenomenon known as time paradox.

However... my point is, he never went back in time in his own reality. (he's not a true time travel, but a multiverse hopper? slider?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliders

He showed up at a completely different reality in which the past he went to never existed.

So the butterfly effect in both definitions cant happen because ur not the start of the ripple, instead ur being forced to ride a pre-existing ripple, because your not keeping to the same disk of reality at origin.
(im gonna call each universe a plate)

In order for the butterfly effect to happen, it has to be his reality originally which he went back to.
Instead the MC is taken to a reality which isnt his own, meaning its not his past, and therefore its not his original future.

Also you cant say the MC doesnt exist in history in the current reality at present.
Meaning... there is no "proof" that the plate he's on right now wasn't already written with him coming from a different plate,
and the MC just following destiny as history recorded it on that plate.

In short you need to stay on your original plate, and fiddle with the past to warp the future for the butterfly effect to happen, creating a branching plate from the original plate with different results.
Not be taken to a completely new plate where the MC was dumped at start.

Hence the MC is free from any consequences with the future, or even paradox, because once again, he NEVER existed nor did he come from the future on the current plate.
It was the future from another plate, which this plate shares similarities.

Gah... u made me talk about this again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey-kun View Post
... You guys sure chat fast.... -_-

About 20 pages behind, let the reading begin!

Meh dont worry, it was mostly a debate with time paradox's and time theory in which people assumed the MC was bound by.

Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-03 at 00:27.
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Old 2012-08-03, 00:59   Link #817
Mechatrill
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Sigh...

Okay, I think I see where this argument is originating...

It seems that your assertion is that the term "butterfly effect" is something that only applies in cases of time travel...

My assertion is that the term "butterfly effect" has nothing to do with time travel or multiverse theory. Rather, it is a conceptual term within the bounds of Chaos theory, which is a field of mathematical study (which also has nothing to do with temporal mechanics or multiverse theory).

Is this where the breakdown in understanding is coming from?
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Old 2012-08-03, 01:06   Link #818
Sumeragi
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Probably. I believe the movie "Butterfly Effect" contributes to the misconception.
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Old 2012-08-03, 02:05   Link #819
aigomorla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechatrill View Post
Sigh...

Okay, I think I see where this argument is originating...

It seems that your assertion is that the term "butterfly effect" is something that only applies in cases of time travel...

My assertion is that the term "butterfly effect" has nothing to do with time travel or multiverse theory. Rather, it is a conceptual term within the bounds of Chaos theory, which is a field of mathematical study (which also has nothing to do with temporal mechanics or multiverse theory).

Is this where the breakdown in understanding is coming from?
no...
Because ur saying his actions are causing a ripple which will effect the future as he knew it. Even if we ignore time travel aspect, you still need to start at the same foci and branch out.

The problem is, the future in the plate he's at never existed, nor did he come from the future in the current plate. Its a completely new plate where his existance never occured until he was dropped in.
(unless the author later tells us, history (literature) was changed over the time and forgotten and made those females into male.) <--- then yes butterfly effect and grandfather paradox, and tempist fugit would apply

Chaos theory states A can goto Z T Y D Z but the thing is your starting point is always A where it branches in a random and unpredictable pattern.

The MC is not anywhere close to A, nor Z T Y D or any letter for that matter.
He is at 1. Hence why i said its best to think he didnt really time travel, but universe warp.
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Old 2012-08-03, 02:16   Link #820
chad001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aigomorla View Post
no...
Because ur saying his actions are causing a ripple which will effect the future as he knew it. Even if we ignore time travel aspect, you still need to start at a foci and branch out.

The problem is, the future in the plate he's at never existed, nor did he come from the future in the current plate. Its a completely new plate where his existance never occured until he was dropped in.

Chaos theory states A can goto Z T Y D Z but the thing is your starting point is always A where it branches in a random and unpredictable pattern.

The MC is not anywhere close to A, nor Z T Y D or any letter for that matter.
He is at 1. Hence why i said its best to think he didnt really time travel, but universe warp.
While I understand your point, I'm a little skeptical about calling the MC's plate 1. A' or A2 might more better, an "A" that is not "A" itself. There's enough similarities, and compensations, in the initial conditions that we cannot entirely rule them out by calling his plate entirely different.

I will agree though that in the case of the specific initial conditions, that enough deviations exist that chaos theory and its derivatives may not be applicable here.
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