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Old 2012-08-01, 16:11   Link #29901
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hideyoshi faking his death has always bugged me...Really, everyone was okay with Eva beating Natsuhi and breaking the furniture when they all knew no one was actually dead?
It's chiru, all pretenses of realism in the games are forfeit.
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Old 2012-08-01, 16:14   Link #29902
jjblue1
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Maybe Eva hated Natsuhi more than we can guess and wanted to vent her hate on her and that's why she used an excuse to beat her up.

Though I tend to think at whatever happened after the suspension of the game as a fantasy when it's not outright meta.

As for Hideyoshi he likely knew Natsuhi was there. In Ep 8 chap 6 of the manga we see Eva looking around then staring at the wardrobe with an 'I think you might be there' expression.
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Old 2012-08-01, 19:09   Link #29903
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The amount which I can't wait from the scans may have just been turned all the way up to 11. By the way, I was thinking that Natsuhi shouldn't have been getting phone calls in episode 1 as she was meant to die.
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Old 2012-08-01, 20:20   Link #29904
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
The amount which I can't wait may have just been turned all the way up to 11. By the way, I was thinking that Natsuhi shouldn't have been getting phone calls in episode 1 as she was meant to die.
Probably... unless Yasu wanted to keep all the possibility open. In that case she made sure all the siblings would be her accomplices then decided on which one to use and then... killed off the spare ones...

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:43.
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Old 2012-08-01, 21:35   Link #29905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, that's all really interesting...Any mention of why the marks on Natsuhi's door were also present in EP2?
Well some things might be progressed to the others.
Just how Rudolph suspected his Death in EP 1 and was sure to die in EP 3.
I was always sure ever since EP 1 where Natsuhi was the last "Oldie" to survive past the 9th Twlight that her role is special in some way.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There's actually no rule that at the second twilight, two victims have to be gouged with stakes.
That kinda question the very existance of the 7 Stakes when only 5 are needed and in the first 2 all 7 were used only for the staker to change their Modus Operandi in the 3rd and fully ceasing to stop using them after the very game where they used 5 of 7.

Also kinda hard to believe that the 7 Stakes which stand for the 7 Sins thus are meant in a set of 7 are used in a set of 5 which contradicts the very meaning of the 7 Stakes/Sins.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-08-01 at 21:46.
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Old 2012-08-02, 01:28   Link #29906
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've also been wondering there's the chance Rosa and Maria were killed by other people. After all, Tohya's fragmented memories could lead him to suspect that in those fateful days something didn't went according to Yasu's plan, pushing him to add an extra killer.
Well opinion is rather divided on it, but I assume Tohya was considering "maybe ... MAYBE Eva-san did kill someone". After all, his memory is very fragmented, and Eva's survival in Prime is notable. Also keep in mind that Tohya only really provided the frameworks for narratives, and Ikuko provides the meat of the thing.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The game Ange plays with the adults had been changed into a hide and seek instead than a quiz one. etc. etc.
Oh my GAHD what you're describing sounds so much ... neater than how it was handled in EP8...

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
The amount which I can't wait from the scans may have just been turned all the way up to 11. By the way, I was thinking that Natsuhi shouldn't have been getting phone calls in episode 1 as she was meant to die.
Eh, it could go either way. In Our Confessions the Featherine (or Beato, I forget if their voices were even being split) pretty much stated that a Natsuhi-accomplice requires a bit of prep work to maintain the logic.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
That kinda question the very existance of the 7 Stakes when only 5 are needed and in the first 2 all 7 were used only for the staker to change their Modus Operandi in the 3rd and fully ceasing to stop using them after the very game where they used 5 of 7.

Also kinda hard to believe that the 7 Stakes which stand for the 7 Sins thus are meant in a set of 7 are used in a set of 5 which contradicts the very meaning of the 7 Stakes/Sins.
Beatrice is fickle and all that, remember? Having a stake for each sin is cooler, even if you don't need all of them. In EP1, Beato implied that people were being staked for the sins they were guilty of, and that pretty much got entirely dropped as "I thought it would be cool to say!" shenanigans. In EP2, she also claimed that even though the epitaph calls for 13 deaths, she could certainly cause more.

There's ALSO the fact that only 5 stakes are used in EP4, as well. George and Jessica (second Twilight) aren't described as having a stake on/near them, whereas everyone in Kyries group definitely does.
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Old 2012-08-02, 10:18   Link #29907
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well opinion is rather divided on it, but I assume Tohya was considering "maybe ... MAYBE Eva-san did kill someone". After all, his memory is very fragmented, and Eva's survival in Prime is notable. Also keep in mind that Tohya only really provided the frameworks for narratives, and Ikuko provides the meat of the thing.
I think he thought of her as the culprit of something. After all in Ep 3 Eva shoots him. If he believed her to be innocent he might have simply lost track of her and ramained in the mansion until it exploded instead we see him describing her as SURELY responsible of shooting him. This however doesn't mean he didn't know there could have been other culprits.

Recently the impression I got from the shooting Battler scene is that Eva took on herself the blame because she had been an accomplice of Beato... but thought Beato was Battler so she shoot him. It's not such a wrong assumption.

The survivors at the moment are her, Jessica, Battler and Nanjo (or so she believes as Nanjo has just been killed). Nanjo has apparently nothing to gain from murdering them all. Battler and Jessica would have the inheritance.

However it's easier to think at Battler as the murder because:
- his parents could be accomplices that Hideyoshi killed, though he ended up being killed as well
- it could be Battler isn't who he said to be but Beato 2's kid who paid Rudolf and Kyrie so as to be presented as Battler.
- if Jessica is the culprit she should have killed her parents whom she seemed to love... her own way
- Even if she saw her rarely, Eva saw Jessica more often than she saw Battler and she's likely more prone to believe that Jessica is innocent than Battler.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Oh my GAHD what you're describing sounds so much ... neater than how it was handled in EP8...
Same here. So far, in my humble opinion, Ep 8 seems to be handled, plot wise, much better in the manga than in the visual novel.
Even the cute moment between Natsuhi and Beato is more moving... Beato really seems a child leaning on her mother and my only complain is that Natsuhi doesn't hug her back... though Natsuhi isn't hugging prone, not even with Jessica who's her legittimate daughter.
There's to say the visual novel aimed to let the reader play while in the manga this isn't even attempted but, plot wise, so far things are handled in a much smoother and interesting manner.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Beatrice is fickle and all that, remember? Having a stake for each sin is cooler, even if you don't need all of them. In EP1, Beato implied that people were being staked for the sins they were guilty of, and that pretty much got entirely dropped as "I thought it would be cool to say!" shenanigans. In EP2, she also claimed that even though the epitaph calls for 13 deaths, she could certainly cause more.
To me it still seems... like it doesn't fit well. There's to say though that Ryukishi changed the original plot he planned for Ep 3 so maybe originally all the 7 stakes should have been used and then, for plot reasons, he was forced not to use 2.
We'll never know.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
There's ALSO the fact that only 5 stakes are used in EP4, as well. George and Jessica (second Twilight) aren't described as having a stake on/near them, whereas everyone in Kyries group definitely does.
I've been wondering if in Ep 4 also there was an extra killer/someone who took control of the game but we know so little of Ep 4 real happening that it's impossible to say. The only 'evidence' would be how Bern used EP 4 as a background for her solution which is 'truth of a sort' but really, it seems to little to prove something.
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Old 2012-08-02, 18:27   Link #29908
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In rereading episode 1, I am once again struck by how odd it is that everyone keeps referring to the 6 of the first twilight as being covered in "disgusting makeup" or something like that. It makes sense for Eva to say, as an accomplice she was probably shocked by how realistic and disgusting it all looked (maybe why she seemed to genuinely try and keep the children from looking) and also allowed her to drop a hint that she thought it was fake. However, Battler uses the same term. It never sat well with me when I read it the first time, is it a clue do you think, or actually some Japanese phrase we just don't say?

Also interesting how Natsuhi only gets the gun after going off with the servants for what seems like too long according to Battler, followed by Eva saying she never could find it....
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Old 2012-08-02, 20:02   Link #29909
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I think it is just a describer that means it is like it isn't even real. That is how horrifying it is. It is probably just Ryukishi playing with his adjectives.
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Old 2012-08-02, 20:52   Link #29910
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think he thought of her as the culprit of something. After all in Ep 3 Eva shoots him. etc. etc.
Well, the short of it is still "Tohya contemplated what might happen if Eva, the only survivor, WAS a murder." Or something like that. I restate that while Tohya is trying to work through his memories (...or something), Hachijou is still out to tell a compelling story.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
To me it still seems... like it doesn't fit well. There's to say though that Ryukishi changed the original plot he planned for Ep 3 so maybe originally all the 7 stakes should have been used and then, for plot reasons, he was forced not to use 2.
We'll never know.
Well he's not FORCED to do anything, Also, I forgot - only FOUR stakes were found in EP4, since Kanon was never found. And even then, all of their action in the magical narrative was superseded by Gaap and the Siestas. It was a conscious decision on his part as the creator.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've been wondering if in Ep 4 also there was an extra killer/someone who took control of the game but we know so little of Ep 4 real happening that it's impossible to say. The only 'evidence' would be how Bern used EP 4 as a background for her solution which is 'truth of a sort' but really, it seems to little to prove something.
EP4, while almost an entire blank space regarding what really happened, SEEMS to be a case where Shannon had everything under the control for the most part. Or rather, there seems little room to doubt any person over any other.
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Old 2012-08-03, 01:33   Link #29911
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I figured the point Tohya was trying to make with EP3 was that there were plenty of other people on the island who were capable of murder; Yasu was just the only one who happened to have the reason and opportunity. If Eva had been able to get the gold or secure the headship for George or something by killing her siblings, she'd probably have gone for it. Just like in the EP7 tea party, she's a murderer who didn't get the chance.
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Old 2012-08-03, 01:44   Link #29912
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Maybe Ep 3 was just Tohya starting out with a popular theory since by this point he may not have truly understood the truth. Like maybe he had inklings of Shannon being the culprit but wanted to see if Eva was the culprit. So maybe he just wanted to have some fun or something but then he solved the truth and wrote the rest to reflect that with Shannon culprit
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Old 2012-08-03, 08:36   Link #29913
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I figured the point Tohya was trying to make with EP3 was that there were plenty of other people on the island who were capable of murder; Yasu was just the only one who happened to have the reason and opportunity. If Eva had been able to get the gold or secure the headship for George or something by killing her siblings, she'd probably have gone for it. Just like in the EP7 tea party, she's a murderer who didn't get the chance.
Unless, of course, you believe that to be out of character for the adults, which I do.

Then again I see it as out of character for Yasu also.
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Old 2012-08-03, 19:08   Link #29914
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Well he's not FORCED to do anything, Also, I forgot - only FOUR stakes were found in EP4, since Kanon was never found. And even then, all of their action in the magical narrative was superseded by Gaap and the Siestas. It was a conscious decision on his part as the creator.
Not forced in the sense that someone is pointing a gun at him but forced in the sense that if he does this or doesn't do that he'll break up the logic he had in mind at the moment (and that might have undergone under further changes by the time Umineko ended).

In short, at the beginning of Umineko he might have planned to use all the seven stakes ALWAYS.
By the time Ep 3 came about using all the seven stakes would generate a logic error with something he wanted to use in a future chapter so he didn't do it.
As he didn't do it in Ep 3 he broke the self imposed 'rule'/plan/idea/whatever that tied him and that said he had to use all of them so he didn't bother about it anymore.
In the end he even discharged the idea that forced him to gave up on using all the seven stakes in Ep 3.

Sounds complex maybe but when you're writing a story this can happen, especially if you change the plot along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
EP4, while almost an entire blank space regarding what really happened, SEEMS to be a case where Shannon had everything under the control for the most part. Or rather, there seems little room to doubt any person over any other.
As we don't really know what happened behind the scenes I don't know if Shannon really had control of everything, if she killed everyone according to how it was shown, if no one tried to take control of her own game, if everything went according to plan and there were no mistakes.

I won't say something happened, just that I can't prove something didn't happen.

The truth is in a cat box and we're given no hints to look at it. Even Will, when talking about Ep 4, merely insisted it was all <i>Illusions to illusions. ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions.</i>

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Unless, of course, you believe that to be out of character for the adults, which I do.

Then again I see it as out of character for Yasu also.
Basically, differently from Christie's books were everyone would be a fitting culprit, Umineko depicts its characters in such a way it feels wrong for everyone to be the culprit. At least for such a huge mass murder.

I think it's one of the weak points of Umineko. Though maybe that's just me.
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Old 2012-08-03, 20:39   Link #29915
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Basically, differently from Christie's books were everyone would be a fitting culprit, Umineko depicts its characters in such a way it feels wrong for everyone to be the culprit. At least for such a huge mass murder.

I think it's one of the weak points of Umineko. Though maybe that's just me.
I think it's one of the strengths, assuming the point was that it was probably all a freak accident.
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Old 2012-08-03, 21:19   Link #29916
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Not forced in the sense that someone is pointing a gun at him but forced in the sense that if he does this or doesn't do that he'll break up the logic he had in mind at the moment (and that might have undergone under further changes by the time Umineko ended).
I wouldn't call any of that being "forced" to do anything.
He changed his mind, that's all. For whatever reason is anyone's guess, but he obviously decided it was okay for all the stakes to not be used. After all, you have a 50/50 rate for "all stakes" vs. "some stakes" in EP1-4. And they're barely even a thing in Chiru.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As we don't really know what happened behind the scenes I don't know if Shannon really had control of everything, if she killed everyone according to how it was shown, if no one tried to take control of her own game, if everything went according to plan and there were no mistakes.

I won't say something happened, just that I can't prove something didn't happen.

The truth is in a cat box and we're given no hints to look at it. Even Will, when talking about Ep 4, merely insisted it was all <i>Illusions to illusions. ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions.</i>
Will's vague solutions just mean that there are a crapton of arguments that could work, because there is BARELY a witch's illusion to solve, anyway.
We know that Shannon had access to a gun up until the moment she died. George, Kumasawa, and Godha were killed on the very first night. Jessica and Kyrie make some phone calls very heavily implied to be coerced.

The specifics are a blank space, yes, but c'mon - the corpses in the dining room? Maria being poisoned? Shannon clearly having the time and space necessary to change clothes, get drunk, and troll Battler after (at least one or two) murders had DEFINITELY occured? I'm not saying she always maintained a perfect control - hell, we can possibly say a group tried to oppose her, or run away, or something, but there really doesn't seem to be much room for other people to be reasonably accused of wrong-doings, there. Almost no actual tricks were used, aside from "Well it's not like Battler will know the difference when he gets here."
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Old 2012-08-03, 22:01   Link #29917
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I wouldn't call any of that being "forced" to do anything.
He changed his mind, that's all. For whatever reason is anyone's guess, but he obviously decided it was okay for all the stakes to not be used. After all, you have a 50/50 rate for "all stakes" vs. "some stakes" in EP1-4. And they're barely even a thing in Chiru.
This is becoming a discussion about semantic and things we'll never know so we'll better drop it.

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Will's vague solutions just mean that there are a crapton of arguments that could work, because there is BARELY a witch's illusion to solve, anyway.
We know that Shannon had access to a gun up until the moment she died. George, Kumasawa, and Godha were killed on the very first night. Jessica and Kyrie make some phone calls very heavily implied to be coerced.
But we can't say if George died before or after the people in the dining room and even Battler pointed out how Jessica didn't sound as if she was being coerced (I can't remember if it was said how Kyrie sounded).

More likely Jessica thought she had been tricked into thinking everyone was dead and was told to make that phonecall to prank Battler as well. Then she was killed. Same for Kyrie.

This episode goes definitely for an overkill as we know for the epitaph ritual so many murders weren't necessary and the others could be finished off by the bomb.
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Old 2012-08-04, 01:46   Link #29918
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She doesn't need to have been 'coerced'. Kanon could have just told her everyone was fine and the whole thing was just a prank, so she made the call willingly. Then Kanon shot her after she was finished.
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Old 2012-08-04, 02:19   Link #29919
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When it comes to Ep 4 I think that everything was a game constructed by Shannon and she said everything would be fine. On her way to the mansion she met and killed George. She then went into the mansion and there threatened and killed Jessica. She does the same to Kyrie. She sets up a simple trick for Maria to drink something or just I don't know that Shannon cleaned up on her time back up to the balcony after faking her death and making sure that Gohda and Kumasawa are doing the same. She then went to the balcony and met Battler. Now she didn't exactly need to change clothes. It was the middle of a downpour, she had an umbrella, and was a three stories up. So she could've just changed her voice.
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Old 2012-08-04, 08:43   Link #29920
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What I dislike of Ep 4 is that the solution is 'Everybody lied' but said solution in itself doesn't really tell me how things went apart from 'they went differently from the fantasy scene' and, if I think there was a sole culprit I've to think to a Shannon-Terminator going around tricking people into saying things and then shooting them down without even giving Battler much time to solve the epitaph or have a chance of surviving because, let's face it, even if Battler were to solve the epitaph, who would tell him about the bomb and the way out?
And even if he were to escape who would believe his story?

Oh, you know the maid had a crush on me so she exterminated the family but let me a way out.

No, this one seems a game in which pieceYasu really wanted merely to commit double suicide with Battler, not to play with him. Though there's to say that since this is a story and not what she did... well, it's no big deal for her... for PieceYasu's characterization maybe, but not for PrimeYasu... assuming she's Ikuko... if she's not... Ikuko and Tohya doesn't even have to worry about this stuff...
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