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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 05
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 35 22.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 41 26.80%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 29 18.95%
7 out of 10 : Good... 30 19.61%
6 out of 10 : Average... 8 5.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.31%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 4 2.61%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 1 0.65%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 2 1.31%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.65%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-05, 16:28   Link #201
Xaturas
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Join Date: Apr 2010
^^ dumb system is dumb.
What's next sleep anal rape? Without people knowing they are raped?
I hold my line saying that it just dumb and stupid. Someone would really need to sleep hard for that to even happen. You know the stupid anime type of dream where nothing else but nuclear explosion wakes you up.
And if they panic at everything they might as well just go and die at lvl 1 against a boar. People know about this system and should be cautious. And as someone pointed out your owned/rented room are *no enter allowed* safe zone, so people should be even more cautious when sleeping in wrong places.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-05 at 17:47. Reason: removed pointless novel reference
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Old 2012-08-05, 16:36   Link #202
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
^^ dumb system is dumb.
What's next sleep anal rape? Without people knowing they are raped?
I hold my line saying that it just dumb and stupid. Someone would really need to sleep hard for that to even happen. You know the stupid anime type of dream where nothing else but nuclear explosion wakes you up.
I take it you've never slept through an alarm. Lucky you.

Really, all they feel is someone manipulating their hand a bit. And maybe some sensation from the sword going in them, but nothing too dramatic. Kirito could ignore it quite handily. I don't see why it'd be weird to not wake up.
Quote:
And if they panic at everything they might as well just go and die at lvl 1 against a boar. People know about this system and should be cautious. And as someone pointed out your owned/rented room are *no enter allowed* safe zone, so people should be even more cautious when sleeping in wrong places.
They generally are, now that someone's though of sleep PKing. But there had to be a first.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-05 at 17:47. Reason: change quoted post
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:19   Link #203
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Not really unless this game is fucing stupid design comparable to backyard trash projects and its not.

You still hear sounds not to mention that there should be some reaction to menus operation. Unless you are a piece of dumb lying tree lump, you should be able to react
Sorry, we're still talking about falling asleep in a bad location in a death game... right? Because I'm fairly certain it's already been established that other people can't break into your house / room in the inn. So you're not dying somewhere safe, or you've invited your prospective murderer into your room with you, in which case you're REALLY in trouble.

So you're already in bad shape sleeping somewhere you're not supposed to be. A la Asuna, who conked out for the whole day on a grassy field.

But you are asleep inside a town, so you feel at least vaguely safe. Not really very safe though, because you're not holed up inside an inn.

So for whatever reason you're conked out in town... maybe you're just too poor to get a room? So there you are, likely at wit's end and falling asleep in a bad spot. And someone comes up and duels you, moves your finger to the right location and clicks accept.

You probably wake up, but you're not armed... and they are. You're still groggy from sleep, and sleep deprived, and you're being woken up by someone stabbing you a lot of times (doesn't hurt though). So you're in seriously bad shape, and dying, and you probably don't know it / realize what's going on. Odds are, even if you were aware of what was going on you'd be so shell shocked by it all you'd just die regardless.

Doesn't strike me as that surprising. I'm typically a very light sleeper and I've slept through alarms... so I could totally see it.

Ironically the odds are a lot less for people being Sleep PK'ed outside town, odds are vastly higher they're dying to mobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
People know about this system and should be cautious. And as someone pointed out your owned/rented room are *no enter allowed* safe zone, so people should be even more cautious when sleeping in wrong places.
Apparently people were living in the world for nearly a year, if not longer (assuming I'm not totally off on time) before it was discovered. A) it would take some time to figure out WTF was happening. It's not like the dead player's get to log onto a wiki site and update how they were PK'ed for everyone else trapped in SAO to read. They're dead, and their murderer probably isn't shouting from the rooftops how they're killing folks. And B) if you're being killed in a totally safe spot during a duel you didn't agree to I think disorientation would be really strong.
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:26   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Not really unless this game is fucing stupid design comparable to backyard trash projects and its not.

You still hear sounds not to mention that there should be some reaction to menus operation.
Unless you are a piece of dumb lying tree lump, you should be able to react.

In any decent game there is such thing as /forfeit /surrender /submit commands in duels where you insta submit a duel, ie. you don't have time for it and need to finish it asap.

Only case it would be even decently believable is when you get 1-2 shooted, but for that your attacker would need to outlevel you tremendously and use their skills. Otherwise people would pk others in open grounds by swinging a sword at them once or twice all the time, without resorting to some dumb workarounds.

6/10 from me because of this dumb unbelievable sleep pk thing.
Someone here has only ever played lol-theme park easymode mmos
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:32   Link #205
Triple_R
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I don't see a major problem with the concept of sleep-PKing alone, largely for reasons that Adigard already laid out nicely.

But the particular way these two murders went down does raise an eyebrow for me (given how elaborate the first one was, and how fast and sudden the second was). But I'm going to give the anime the benefit of the doubt, and hope that it has a good "game mechanics" way of explaining it.
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:34   Link #206
don_Durandal
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Adigard, you don't even need to take advantage of sleep-grogginess for sleep-pk to work. There's a very easy way to win:
start off with a paralysis attack.

It doesn't matter even if the player wakes up fully conscious. He won't be able to do anything.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-05 at 20:50.
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:39   Link #207
Xaturas
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Someone here has only ever played lol-theme park easymode mmos
MU, Knight online, A3, Wow, Lineage 2, EVE (trial and got bored), Dynasty warriors online, APB:R, NFS World, Aion, Diablo 2, Ultima Online,
and about 10-20 more titles + many FPS shooters I forgot about as you gave MMO's and not MMORPG or any other kind of game.

But sure I played only kids games. Besides I played roller coaster tycoon 2 and 3 and theme park world which I gave to my extended family kids as it was to kiddy.

I'm a gamer and pvp player at core if you didn't get it and still consider its dumb as hell.

Not to mention that in most games there is some sort of damage reduction in pvp, so that players won't 1hit other players all the time with big spells/skills, but we can assume that in this game you do 100% of your damage to monsters and players, only that monsters have increased damage compared to players.
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:41   Link #208
Adigard
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Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
Adigard, you don't even need to take advantage of sleep-grogginess for sleep-pk to work. There's a very easy way to win
Yup, totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
I'm a gamer and pvp player at core if you didn't get it and still consider its dumb as hell.
Let's be honest here. We're talking about someone murdering people who probably can't afford to pay to sleep in an inn. Human nature is going to look for easy targets. SOFT targets. Targets for whom you can instill the fear of god in, even.

People who can be killed very easily in a duel. Thus, one or two hits will kill them.

And people who feel perfectly safe inside a town.

Places were you can find a decent number of targets without roaming too far.

And people who won't be missed by the high level clearing teams who likely understand the game mechanics rather well.

Yup... those poor bastards left in the starter city who are deathly afraid to leave town for fear of dying to the lvl1 mobs outside the city.

THOSE are your targets for sleep PK. I'll bet you could murder quite a few of those poor sorry bastards before someone stopped you.

Now, if you still think it's dumb, I'm quite certain you're just set in your belief and no amount of explaining is going to do the trick.
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Old 2012-08-05, 17:54   Link #209
Xaturas
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Yup, totally agree.
Let's be honest here. We're talking about someone murdering people who probably can't afford to pay to sleep in an inn. Human nature is going to look for easy targets. SOFT targets. Targets for whom you can instill the fear of god in, even.

People who can be killed very easily in a duel. Thus, one or two hits will kill them.

And people who feel perfectly safe inside a town.

Places were you can find a decent number of targets without roaming too far.

And people who won't be missed by the high level clearing teams who likely understand the game mechanics rather well.

Yup... those poor bastards left in the starter city who are deathly afraid to leave town for fear of dying to the lvl1 mobs outside the city.

THOSE are your targets for sleep PK. I'll bet you could murder quite a few of those poor sorry bastards before someone stopped you.

Now, if you still think it's dumb, I'm quite certain you're just set in your belief and no amount of explaining is going to do the trick.
Lets agree to disagree.

Those people may as well be dead. If they cannot sustain their life in game, while waiting for someone more capable to finish the game then they really might as well be dead.
Basic logic would suggest that they should do the minimal necessary, in real life they also need to somehow sustain their existence. If we consider that now for those 2 years Sao is their real life, they should be able to work. Heck they might trade, they might craft, they might hunt some mobs. But if they can't scrap few shits to get some place to stay then they really are worthless.
People who pk them are murders no talk there, but if they kill such poor human trash, then heck let them. Someone will catch them later anyway, as for the dead sobs, they didn't mean anything anyway.

Enough from me as I previously said dumb system is dumb, and rest of ep didn't pull it up to get it above 6/10. Mystery was boring for me as well, maybe because of Hyouka which I dropped after 4 eps of constant boredom, even though I like a good mystery.

As for normal players, they know and follow the rule that they are at constant war, and resources and rest are required. You don't go fighting enemy after few days of no sleep do you ... Common insticts allow normal survival. If you sleep like somo hobo on street its obvious you will get mugged or killed in worse parts of town/world.
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Old 2012-08-05, 18:57   Link #210
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Lets agree to disagree.

Those people may as well be dead. If they cannot sustain their life in game, while waiting for someone more capable to finish the game then they really might as well be dead.
Basic logic would suggest that they should do the minimal necessary, in real life they also need to somehow sustain their existence. If we consider that now for those 2 years Sao is their real life, they should be able to work. Heck they might trade, they might craft, they might hunt some mobs. But if they can't scrap few shits to get some place to stay then they really are worthless.
People who pk them are murders no talk there, but if they kill such poor human trash, then heck let them. Someone will catch them later anyway, as for the dead sobs, they didn't mean anything anyway.

Enough from me as I previously said dumb system is dumb, and rest of ep didn't pull it up to get it above 6/10. Mystery was boring for me as well, maybe because of Hyouka which I dropped after 4 eps of constant boredom, even though I like a good mystery.

As for normal players, they know and follow the rule that they are at constant war, and resources and rest are required. You don't go fighting enemy after few days of no sleep do you ... Common insticts allow normal survival. If you sleep like somo hobo on street its obvious you will get mugged or killed in worse parts of town/world.
The game isn't anyone's "real life" except for a few crazy people like Kirito. And possibly the murderers, honestly. For most people, they're just hostages waiting for rescue. Would you say that hostages who choose not to fight back against the terrorists with guns are "human trash" who deserve to die? A lot of these people are just kids.

And common sense doesn't say that you can killed on the street when you can't get killed on the street. Obviously people didn't realize this was a danger until much later, and once they realized it people stopped sleeping on the street. Problem solved. Until this episode when it turns out there's some other kind of exploit to worry about. People adapt.
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Old 2012-08-05, 22:18   Link #211
orion
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Lets agree to disagree.

Those people may as well be dead. If they cannot sustain their life in game, while waiting for someone more capable to finish the game then they really might as well be dead.
Basic logic would suggest that they should do the minimal necessary, in real life they also need to somehow sustain their existence. If we consider that now for those 2 years Sao is their real life, they should be able to work. Heck they might trade, they might craft, they might hunt some mobs. But if they can't scrap few shits to get some place to stay then they really are worthless.
People who pk them are murders no talk there, but if they kill such poor human trash, then heck let them. Someone will catch them later anyway, as for the dead sobs, they didn't mean anything anyway.

Enough from me as I previously said dumb system is dumb, and rest of ep didn't pull it up to get it above 6/10. Mystery was boring for me as well, maybe because of Hyouka which I dropped after 4 eps of constant boredom, even though I like a good mystery.

As for normal players, they know and follow the rule that they are at constant war, and resources and rest are required. You don't go fighting enemy after few days of no sleep do you ... Common insticts allow normal survival. If you sleep like somo hobo on street its obvious you will get mugged or killed in worse parts of town/world.
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The game isn't anyone's "real life" except for a few crazy people like Kirito. And possibly the murderers, honestly. For most people, they're just hostages waiting for rescue. Would you say that hostages who choose not to fight back against the terrorists with guns are "human trash" who deserve to die? A lot of these people are just kids.

And common sense doesn't say that you can killed on the street when you can't get killed on the street. Obviously people didn't realize this was a danger until much later, and once they realized it people stopped sleeping on the street. Problem solved. Until this episode when it turns out there's some other kind of exploit to worry about. People adapt.
Totally agree.

I prob would have been one of those poor souls that tried to find a "safe" profession to get into and wait it out.

Can you get drunk in the game? That would be a variation of sleep-PK.
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Old 2012-08-05, 22:44   Link #212
Starlightz
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
MU, Knight online, A3, Wow, Lineage 2, EVE (trial and got bored), Dynasty warriors online, APB:R, NFS World, Aion, Diablo 2, Ultima Online,
and about 10-20 more titles + many FPS shooters I forgot about as you gave MMO's and not MMORPG or any other kind of game.

But sure I played only kids games. Besides I played roller coaster tycoon 2 and 3 and theme park world which I gave to my extended family kids as it was to kiddy.

I'm a gamer and pvp player at core if you didn't get it and still consider its dumb as hell.

Not to mention that in most games there is some sort of damage reduction in pvp, so that players won't 1hit other players all the time with big spells/skills, but we can assume that in this game you do 100% of your damage to monsters and players, only that monsters have increased damage compared to players.
I'm surprised you said you played WoW, you are a pvp player then you continued with "so that players won't 1hit other players all the time with big spells/skills". Probably never played vanilla, or attacking anyone a few level lower than you.
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Old 2012-08-05, 22:55   Link #213
shakeofinfinity
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As long as there is asuna, this is a good episode
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:29   Link #214
Xaturas
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The game isn't anyone's "real life" except for a few crazy people like Kirito. And possibly the murderers, honestly. For most people, they're just hostages waiting for rescue. Would you say that hostages who choose not to fight back against the terrorists with guns are "human trash" who deserve to die? A lot of these people are just kids.

And common sense doesn't say that you can killed on the street when you can't get killed on the street. Obviously people didn't realize this was a danger until much later, and once they realized it people stopped sleeping on the street. Problem solved. Until this episode when it turns out there's some other kind of exploit to worry about. People adapt.
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Totally agree.

I prob would have been one of those poor souls that tried to find a "safe" profession to get into and wait it out.

Can you get drunk in the game? That would be a variation of sleep-PK.
As I said they could get into non lethal job type. Become a merchant, information broker or anything else. There are jobs that don't require them to be high levels who run around and butcher npcs. Heck I played my share of being a merchant in mmorpgs, just sit around some type of auction house and buy and sell. So that they could provide for all of their expenses and housing bills.
And If you are locked down in some game for 2 YEARS it kinda becomes your real life, until you will get out. After all you need to sleep and eat there, so basic needs are covered, then you need some other maslov pyramid things to survive. Obviously you die there if you die, so if its not REAL then I don't know what is. Don't try to measure something you cannot yet experience yet based on your knowledge (such game system).

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Originally Posted by Starlightz View Post
I'm surprised you said you played WoW, you are a pvp player then you continued with "so that players won't 1hit other players all the time with big spells/skills". Probably never played vanilla, or attacking anyone a few level lower than you.
Wow had resilence, I played TBC and frankly I cannot remember much 1hitting. Probably rogue bug abusing backstab with sword/mace on clothes enemy. Or mage/lock big nuke combo, but that is not 1hit. And maybe Warrior whirlwind stormherald proc on cloth user.

Still I said "Not to mention that in most games there is some sort of damage reduction in pvp," before the rest, so you literally didn't read the whole sentence and made your opinion.
Most of games have some sort of pvp damage reduction, be it build into engine like 50% pvp damage reduction and/or iequipement pvp damage reduction gained from items as additional pvp dmg reduction.

Last but not least, Hi lvl 1 hitting some lowbie? Realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly? You had to bring that point. Obviously if some 7x will go to starting town he can 1hit rape ppl, but we talk about people around same lvl or in 10-15lvl bracket difference.
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:33   Link #215
supermegasonic
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WTF? what the actual f---? i had to check episode 4 just in case i somehow missed something. here i was waiting for some kind of reunion and all of a sudden they pretty much know each other?? im kinda pissed at this. so i guess this is the "beginning" of our 1st arc, i guess its ok. but i think it was too obvious when i saw that open window and i saw her going to it. though i was actually thinking she was gonna kill herself...

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Those were nice moments, but this was the best part of the episode:

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
this is an awesome gif, loved that moment
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:50   Link #216
styr
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there is never a big reunion scene w/ asuna, they play the same mmo game after all and they raid together often. this side story is the first time they do something alone together in a very long time, almost 1.5 years after ep2.
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:51   Link #217
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Last but not least, Hi lvl 1 hitting some lowbie? Realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly? You had to bring that point. Obviously if some 7x will go to starting town he can 1hit rape ppl, but we talk about people around same lvl or in 10-15lvl bracket difference.
Why in the world would you ignore ganking? Ganking is the whole point. Sleep-PKers obviously aren't interested in a fair match.
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:51   Link #218
GhostShogun
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Thus, it works like a game with motion controls. VR is cool and all, but ultimately it's just a fancy version of a Kinect. You move your body and stuff happens in the game. Even attacks work like that, as explained to Klein in episode 1. You don't just swing your sword around, you activate the Sword Skill by moving your arm in such-and-such way. Likewise, you open your menu by making a specific gesture and use the menu normally. To require anything more than that makes it more than a "game".
The game works by literally reading the player's mind. Unlike Kinect the player does not move in the real world. This means that sleep-pk is not an exploit. It's an intended feature. It would be child's play to make it so only movement originating from that player can operate the menu. Logically that any player movement from any source can open up the menu must be an intended feature. Think of it this way: It is impossible for me to physically access your keyboard since we are not even in the same city. In order for me to type stuff and have it appear as if it was coming from your keyboard I would have to alter your computer using a program or you would have to enable some kind of sharing.
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:54   Link #219
Clarste
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The game works by literally reading the player's mind. Unlike Kinect the player does not move in the real world. This means that sleep-pk is not an exploit. It's an intended feature. It would be child's play to make it so only movement originating from that player can operate the menu. Logically that any player movement from any source can open up the menu must be an intended feature. Think of it this way: It is impossible for me to physically access your keyboard since we are not even in the same city. In order for me to type stuff and have it appear as if it was coming from your keyboard I would have to alter your computer using a program or you would have to enable some kind of sharing.
Or it just wasn't a problem in beta, because no one sleeps in-game, and they didn't bother to do anything about it when there weren't any complaints. There are other ways to get people to stop touching you (anti-harassment features) but they only work when you're awake. Because who in the world would sleep in a game? It's just not something they tested enough, therefore it's an exploit.
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Old 2012-08-05, 23:58   Link #220
supermegasonic
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there is never a big reunion scene w/ asuna, they play the same mmo game after all and they raid together often. this side story is the first time they do something alone together in a very long time, almost 1.5 years after ep2.
how would we, the anime watchers know that? we never saw them once interact after that episode. sounds like something you would know if you read the LN
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