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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 43
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 1 2.86%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 2 5.71%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 9 25.71%
7 out of 10: Good... 11 31.43%
6 out of 10: Average... 3 8.57%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 4 11.43%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 2 5.71%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 3 8.57%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-06, 18:37   Link #101
Dengar
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I still don't get all these arguments. Flit is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out all the Vegans, and the Vegans are really angry and vengeful, and want to wipe out the Earthers, and Ezelcant is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out humanity as we know it.

Why do people treat these similar people as, well, different people?
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Old 2012-08-06, 18:38   Link #102
Revolutionist
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I can't devote 30 minutes to a reply, so I'll just say this on the matter of Flit and Algreus.

Algreus said to Flit : none of our forces can land/hold the line. What should we do?
Flit responds: When the line collapses we'll use the Plasma Diver Missile.

He's assuming that the line will collapse and Algreus will have no choice but to fire it. Nowhere does Flit say let's try to get it done before it comes to that, nor does he mention alternatives to using the missile. The alternative was all Algreus' idea, which he transmitted to the Diva and Seric caught on to. It wasn't Flit's idea at all. Flit wanted to use the missile at all costs because what he's after is a massacre, not winning the battle with minimal loss of life to both sides. Him telling Algreus in the end it was up to him to make the decision is irrelevant, he knew he had put Algreus in a position where it was either lose the battle or fire the missile.
Algreus later rationalized it because he couldn't believe his mentor could be so crazy, but Flit made it very obvious he intended to fire the missile and end the battle in a bloodbath.
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Old 2012-08-06, 20:09   Link #103
Dr. Casey
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This is a pretty riveting debate. Fighto, Revolutionist-kun, houkoholic-chan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Because he spent the past three episodes screaming at Captain Moe to prepare the WMD he had to use it?

But hey, you're right. His actions don't match up with saying he wants to commit genocide. That just makes him a hypocrite who can't follow through when it's down to the wire.
She's not really Captain Moe anymore.

And even if he is indeed what you say (A hypocrite whose actions don't match his words), isn't that still a major improvement over bloodthirsty maniac? I think that being a bitter old man who foams at the mouth but wouldn't truly do anything evil, is much better than being completely and perfectly willing to commit genocide.
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Old 2012-08-06, 20:28   Link #104
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@PrivateOfLackOfPhotons: Dr. Casey provides a perfect example of what a concise and reasonable post is.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
She's not really Captain Moe anymore.
Sure she is! Moe is always moe.

Quote:
And even if he is indeed what you say (A hypocrite whose actions don't match his words), isn't that still a major improvement over bloodthirsty maniac? I think that being a bitter old man who foams at the mouth but wouldn't truly do anything evil, is much better than being completely and perfectly willing to commit genocide.
I disagree, personally, given how often he's been saying it during this generation. Even if he hasn't actually committed genocide yet, he's certainly preached that course in full view of more than one person. Being a vocal advocate of that course of action is just as bad as actually seeing it through, in my opinion. There's always the chance that someone will actually listen to him and do what he's telling people to do. Flit's not the only one with a serious grudge against the Vagan, and hearing a former Vice Admiral (if not higher) actually saying what they're thinking is more than enough to send someone over that edge when they're already dangling off of it.
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Old 2012-08-06, 22:41   Link #105
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In the end they aren't really going to let one of the protagonists for this series actually commit genocide so the best they can do is have him be the vocal proponent of it. I don't see where all the debate can go here. Ezelcant wants to kill a ton of people so he can make his master race. The Vagans have been pulled in with propaganda and suffering to pretty much want genocide so they can have their Eden. Flit wants to blow the Vagans away because of what he's lost. I'm sure there are plenty in the Federation (like Grodek really) who have lost people and would have no problem with wiping out the Vagans. It's not a pretty situation here.

The only thing I wonder with Flit is how close is he going to go before the series inevitably pulls him back and has him get past his anger. Already pretty much had that missile ready to launch the moment things looked bad for retaking the base. Now we have Second Moon conveniently floating right in so it's almost a perfect time to see just how focused on taking out all Vagans Flit really is. The battles have always stayed far away from that place and now it's going to be sitting right up close.

Frankly more interested in other parts of this episode than just Flit's anger. Do wonder if Zeheart will suffer the Decil fate and end up going down or if he can be kept alive. Also curious about Fram's fate since she's definitely picked up her loyalty to Zeheart as of late. Be nice if both survived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still don't get all these arguments. Flit is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out all the Vegans, and the Vegans are really angry and vengeful, and want to wipe out the Earthers, and Ezelcant is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out humanity as we know it.

Why do people treat these similar people as, well, different people?
Because that's just crazy talk . But really it'd prevent us from having the same debate over and over again. Just like the first episodes of this series was filled with the repeating criticism of the art style. Next week we'll be back here talking about this again.
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Old 2012-08-06, 22:58   Link #106
Revolutionist
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I think they've killed enough characters for shock value that any more deaths would be pointless. Zeheart may die sacrificing himself, but then that would screw up Fram, unless she dies herself. I just don't see them killing both Vagan characters who are somewhat sympathetic
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Old 2012-08-06, 23:01   Link #107
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The real issue Zeheart has to face is that all this time, he's been Ezelcant's servant through and through, and has been following his orders and his visions to achieve Project Eden.

Now he'll be at the top and there won't be an Ezelcant to hold his hand. How will he cope with leadership when he doesn't actually believe the truth about Project Eden?
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Old 2012-08-06, 23:17   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The real issue Zeheart has to face is that all this time, he's been Ezelcant's servant through and through, and has been following his orders and his visions to achieve Project Eden.

Now he'll be at the top and there won't be an Ezelcant to hold his hand. How will he cope with leadership when he doesn't actually believe the truth about Project Eden?
I would think it'd be a bigger issue if Zeheart does believe the truth about Project Eden, as he would then need to figure out how to convince his subordinates of that truth, assuming Zeheart disagrees with the real project.
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Old 2012-08-06, 23:41   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still don't get all these arguments. Flit is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out all the Vegans, and the Vegans are really angry and vengeful, and want to wipe out the Earthers, and Ezelcant is angry, vengeful, and wants to wipe out humanity as we know it.

Why do people treat these similar people as, well, different people?
Because in reality when we have a person whom has actually committed a crime versus someone who said he would commit a crime but hasn't done anything we won't judge them on the same level. Do you give the same sentence to someone whom is a racist and had gone out to murder a handful of black people versus someone who claims to be a racist but just goes around to call black people the N word and say they should die? Of course not. Nor do we hold people spewing hate speech on the same level as people who actually carry out the actions (you know otherwise a lot of pastors today would be responsible for spewing hate speech against gays for example, freedom of speech be damned because it goes both ways).

That's why we don't and shouldn't judge Flit on the same level as Ezelcant or the Vagan military UNTIL he had made his move, which is the whole point of this debate of correcting people like Revolutionist who insists that Flit is as bad (or worse) then the Vagans/Ezelcant when by all rational and reasonable accounts he is not.

tl;dr version:
Flit: spews hate speech but hasn't done anything, hasn't been able to rally people behind him, not even his own children
Ezelcant: spews hate speech and brainwashed generations of Vagans to carry out his sick plan of murdering innocent and weak people to evolve a new human race, secretly kills his own people too
Vagan military: actually carries out Ezelcant's wick plan of murdering civilians

So. Not. The. Same.
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Old 2012-08-07, 01:13   Link #110
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I can't devote 30 minutes to a reply, so I'll just say this on the matter of Flit and Algreus.

Algreus said to Flit : none of our forces can land/hold the line. What should we do?
Flit responds: When the line collapses we'll use the Plasma Diver Missile.

He's assuming that the line will collapse and Algreus will have no choice but to fire it. Nowhere does Flit say let's try to get it done before it comes to that, nor does he mention alternatives to using the missile. The alternative was all Algreus' idea, which he transmitted to the Diva and Seric caught on to. It wasn't Flit's idea at all. Flit wanted to use the missile at all costs because what he's after is a massacre, not winning the battle with minimal loss of life to both sides. Him telling Algreus in the end it was up to him to make the decision is irrelevant, he knew he had put Algreus in a position where it was either lose the battle or fire the missile.
Algreus later rationalized it because he couldn't believe his mentor could be so crazy, but Flit made it very obvious he intended to fire the missile and end the battle in a bloodbath.
LOL NO Flit said they can't afford to loose. Flit said it is Algreaus decision to use the Plasma Diver missile. As it is Algreaus who is in charge not Flit.

The reason why Algreaus believes Flit gave a third option is that the plan had left the photon blaster warm.

All it needed was a Kirk. Meaning Seric Abis to infiltrated the base and intimidated the Vegans.

This shows as much as the second arc Flit trust those around him to be competent.

They lose the base an blow it up they still lose. This way they win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
In the end they aren't really going to let one of the protagonists for this series actually commit genocide so the best they can do is have him be the vocal proponent of it. I don't see where all the debate can go here. Ezelcant wants to kill a ton of people so he can make his master race. The Vagans have been pulled in with propaganda and suffering to pretty much want genocide so they can have their Eden. Flit wants to blow the Vagans away because of what he's lost. I'm sure there are plenty in the Federation (like Grodek really) who have lost people and would have no problem with wiping out the Vagans. It's not a pretty situation here.

The only thing I wonder with Flit is how close is he going to go before the series inevitably pulls him back and has him get past his anger. Already pretty much had that missile ready to launch the moment things looked bad for retaking the base. Now we have Second Moon conveniently floating right in so it's almost a perfect time to see just how focused on taking out all Vagans Flit really is. The battles have always stayed far away from that place and now it's going to be sitting right up close.
Exactly! The plot progression and Flit's character development point to this.
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Old 2012-08-07, 01:37   Link #111
Rising Dragon
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Y'know, most of us are aware that Flit will be most likely be stopped before he can succeed at making an attempt at genocide, if he ever gets the chance to make an attempt. It's Gundam, after all, and not something like, say, Ideon. We are aware of this.

That doesn't mean we have to like Flit's goal of genocide or his promotion of it, so can you at least understand that, instead of condemning us for disliking that side of him and constantly lying about what we say?
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:21   Link #112
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That doesn't mean we have to like Flit's goal of genocide or his promotion of it, so can you at least understand that, instead of condemning us for disliking that side of him and constantly lying about what we say?
This. So. Much.

As far as things look, he WOULD do it if he had the chance. And there's nothing you say that can change that fact. He DID raise his gun at fleeing Vegans you know?
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Old 2012-08-07, 10:27   Link #113
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
I like what Seric just did.

Spoiler:


I guess we were right.

Spoiler:
That was my suspicion as well about her being tricked that is. SO what was the point of her again? :P
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Old 2012-08-07, 10:49   Link #114
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That was my suspicion as well about her being tricked that is. SO what was the point of her again? :P
hurr durr the feds can be evil too
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Old 2012-08-07, 11:09   Link #115
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I know some people are annoyed at Kio's action (or lack thereof) in this episode, but I'm more interested in the fact that none of Kio's teammates, not even Flit or Asem, has confronted him about the danger in what he's doing. I think Kio needs a Woolf of his own.

On another subject, I was surprised and pleased that Zeheart got the last scene with Reina instead of Kio. That's something different, I believe.

Pretty enjoyable episode, I must say.
He needs a BRIGHT SLAP.

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hurr durr the feds can be evil too
But the federation did nothing. The test was sabotaged by a federation technician who wanted to switch sides. :P
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Old 2012-08-07, 13:56   Link #116
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The Federation did try to shut her up, they did continue the test despite it malfunctioning, etc. While he did sabotage it, it doesn't mean what the federation did afterwards wasn't wrong.

What I am curious about is in her death scene, she said that she couldn't do anything about him and the federation.... Does she know the guy sabotaged the test? Or was she referencing someone else?
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Old 2012-08-07, 20:48   Link #117
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Does she know the guy sabotaged the test? Or was she referencing someone else?
No she didn't. You think she'd defect without killing him first if she knew?
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Old 2012-08-07, 22:11   Link #118
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No she didn't. You think she'd defect without killing him first if she knew?
So who would she be talking about when she said, " him and the federation"? Was it defeating Kio? Maybe she knew he sabotaged it, but her hatred toward the feds was bigger so that was her priority and he would be dealt with later?
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Old 2012-08-07, 22:16   Link #119
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"Him"? Definitely Girard. She couldn't do anything about "him" dying, and she couldn't do anything about the Federation's stupidity/corruption.
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Old 2012-08-08, 15:46   Link #120
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Is Kio dumbest kid of Gundam series since Katz of Zeta Gundam?
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