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Old 2012-08-06, 23:56   Link #1021
aigomorla
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And where would he get the fuel? Wood is too low power, coal mining cannot follow up the demand. Furthermore, the necessary steel pressure containers cannot be produced with the level of steel-making skills of this era.

Really, I'm aghast at how people are taking things for granted here.
japanese knew how to forge steel.

The hardest part would be flattening and shaping the steel, however with monster strength girls thats not a true issue.

To forge iron into steel, coal is required.
Steel is basically iron smelted with carbon.

So everything is there, the MC needs to just realize its not his future he would change and start innovating.

Also he changed history on construction alone in the creation of that castle.
I bet no one thought about creating a castle that way until the MC told them to.
Infact it took almost 250 years with Kaizer building ships (WW2) to conceive the model he went though to build the castle in 1 night.
Modular parts, and modular assembly was something completely unheard of.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:05   Link #1022
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Japan never had the necessary steel-producing capacity or capabilities for a full industrial revolution, and in fact has had to always rely on imports to feed the economy. Knowledge is nothing without either the infrastructure or the resources, and Sengoku Japan has neither of those. The reason why we have the legends of the nihontos requiring hundreds of hours of work was because of the resource constraints.

As for the architecture stuff..... Korea used the modular assembly method for at least a thousand years. Nothing new, really. It just shows how backward Japan really was on the technological front for centuries.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:10   Link #1023
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Japan never had the necessary steel-producing capacity or capabilities for a full industrial revolution, and in fact has had to always rely on imports to feed the economy. Knowledge is nothing without either the infrastructure or the resources, and Sengoku Japan has neither of those. The reason why we have the legends of the nihontos requiring hundreds of hours of work was because of the resource constraints.

As for the architecture stuff..... Korea next door used the modular assembly method for thousands of years. Nothing new, really. It just shows how backward Japan really was on the technological front for centuries.
lolz...

Yeah but once again... you didnt have girls like katsue or inuchiyo who have strength of serveral men, can throw a row of men across the room from a single swing of a naginata.

Oh and if u can build cannons... u can build boilers... and im fairly sure cannons exist.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:12   Link #1024
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And how is that relevant to Japan not having the resources and technological infrastructure for an industrial revolution?
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:13   Link #1025
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And how is that relevant to Japan not having the resources and technological infrastructure for an industrial revolution?
I dont want to get into a heated historical debate with you.

But trust me... 1 high school boy from the future with serveral good smiths, and a lord who loves barbarian technology is more then enough to kick start the industrial revolution.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:23   Link #1026
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Assuming they have at least enough (while limited) resources to produce at least a half-complete prototype but can work the basics of the stuff they need... or rather, I still wonder if that is possible.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:23   Link #1027
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Trust me, knowing how Japan was, an industrial revolution is impossible. Simple as that.
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:25   Link #1028
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I hoPe the anime covers v4. Nobuna's delusion was quite sad
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:51   Link #1029
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The anime sure is going fast, which basically means I have a lot to cover in the novels.
Gotta rope in nomon asap
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Old 2012-08-07, 00:52   Link #1030
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Ha, well this is meant to be a discussion topic, but I'm happy to simply agree to disagree if you don't buy the premise.

My point is simply knowing about the IDEA of a revolver or a paper bullet means you can work with expert craftsmen to figure out how it could be done. I'm pretty sure now that people have acknowledged he's from the future, they'd be willing to put in the time and effort to make the attempts at least?

........

I mostly agree with this comment.. and I caveat that, I work in finance and am not a history major, but from what I recall - trench warfare did not develop solely due to the machine gun.. but in general the concept that "firepower >= mobility"

As Nobunaga proved against Katsuyori, a "similar" strategy can be successful even with ranked matchlock fire as long as you have quantity. I would never suggest someone build a network of trenches that would likely to be flooded, but the development of barbed wire and a "no man's land" type of stationary defensive warfare.. I feel like it could work!

Ultimately, the author didn't go this route, and based on your disbelief, it seems like people wouldn't "buy" it -- but I at least thought the idea would be neat!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
1. Again, Japan does not have the technological background nor the resources to be innovating. Paper production was somewhat limited, iron was of low quality, gun powder had not developed to the point needed. What people in general are ignoring is that what works needs the backing of technology behind it, and without such technological infrastructure, what can work would not work. This is a basic thing any person knowledgeable in technological development would understand.

2. Barbed wire is only possible with the technology needed to make long steel wires, which again isn't possible at this era, especially Japan.



Agree with Sumeragi here, an more extreme example would be that we can go back to to 1600s' and tell them how to make atom bomb and they won't be able to make them.

As Sumeragi said, Japan's technology was limited at time, there iron work was low-quality. Granted, they do have some notable blacksmith, but there aren't enough of them to mass-produce anything high quality. (otherwise there would meidou everywhere.) It's gun powder was not develop as well, in fact one of main reason they failed in their Korean expedition was because they can't match up to Ming Dynasty (who came in to the aid of Korea) technologically.

Also compare to other Daimyo, Nobunaga was already more advanced technologically due to him being open about European and Ming culture and their knowledge. Yet he can only muster 3,000 arquebus in the Battle of Nagashino, in which many historians believe that number to have been exaggerated. Either way, considering that it was believe that he already own 300 arquebus when he united his clan and Owari around 1559. It means that it took him additional 16 years to get his hands on 2,700 arquebus which includes him purchasing them from foreign traders and having his people replicate them themselves.

Simply put, they had trouble of replicating existing technology how will they be able to create stuff they never even heard of or seen?

Of course, if they keep working on it and not afraid of failures, they might be able to make those paper bullets in 5-10 years, but we are still talking about years. It was not until around Tokugawa establish his Shogunate that their militaristic technology level was comparable to the European and Ming dynasty, but even that was arguable as the technology they obtained was still fairly outdated.


BTW, speaking of Katsuyori. Contrary to popular opinion, Battle of Nagashino wasn't nearly as lopsided. The battle actually lasted whole day, and while Takeda for was completely wiped out, the casualties on Oda/Tokugawa's side was pretty huge as well. O/T already has numbers advantage, estimated around 38,000 against 15,000 from Takeda. While Takeda loss around 9,000-12,000, O/T's casualty count was around 6,000.

Also, O/T force was acting in defensive, so all things consider, that battle was pretty much won due to O/T's number along. Not only that, the record also shows that after the initial barrage, Takeda was still able to reach Oda main camp. The problem was that Nobunaga was using the main camp as decoy and send out mobile troop to take out all the Takeda's satellite comps then gather together and surround the Takeda force.

What that mean was that on the main camp side, the battle is a wash off. The highly romanticized arquebus v.s. cavalry, triple-barrage v.s. suicide charge pretty much ends up as a double-KO.

This goes back to technology, the arquebus they have at time is incredibly primitive with effective range of about 30-50m (or 100-150ft.) and not very accurate, it also took a long time to re-fill, even with a triple barrage, one,maybe two rounds and the enemy is right on top of you. Nobunaga sets up three lines of defense and all three line were broken through including the main camp.


In addition, that loss was not as detrimental as most believe. The loss of troops wasn't as devastating, it was the loss of important commanders and high-level retainers that hurts. But even then, while the loss robbed Takeda clan's ability of going offensive, they are still capable defensively. Katsuyori was still able to keep the clan and his land for 8 more year until internal division within the clan and Nobunaga successfully buying off Takeda retainers one-by-one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigomorla View Post
lolz...

Yeah but once again... you didnt have girls like katsue or inuchiyo who have strength of serveral men, can throw a row of men across the room from a single swing of a naginata.

Oh and if u can build cannons... u can build boilers... and im fairly sure cannons exist.

Speaking of cannons, these are the cannons at time.

Sengoku period cannon:
石火矢
Late Sengoku/ Early Edo Period cannon:
大筒

While they got decent power, they are primary made of bronze with rocks as bullet and can only fire about 10-20 times. It's not until around Hideyoshi's death did Hideyoshi able to employ iron-made cannons.

As such, they aren't even widely used in siege battle until after Hideyoshi's death in Battle of Sekigahara, almost 20 years after Nobunaga death. Even then they can't be mass produced.
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Old 2012-08-07, 01:47   Link #1031
aigomorla
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ok wow... i didnt want to go there but u guys are asking me.

The steam engine was invented in 1700's. More like the turn of the 18th century from a pressure cooker which was designed in 1659.

Earily steam engines were made from Stone.. and used simple brass / steel / iron pots to build water pressure.



Now why is the steam engine so important?
It was the start and basis of the industrial revolution because the steam engine was a gateway to manufacturing.
Then came assembly plants... which later lead to modular construction.

Modular assembly is something which Kaiser introduced: (ask your history teacher if u dont believe me, its US history straight up.)

The MC introduced modular construction, which was made popular by Kaizer. Basically ships like everything else was made in one go.
They laid down a frame and built the ship up. However Kaizer realized, what if u could build them in pieces and assembled them like a lego at site?
This way u would have premade pieces which would come together nicely and in a fraction of the time.


Quote:
Kaiser was known for developing new methods of ship building, which allowed his yards to outproduce other similar facilities and build 1,490 ships, 27 percent of the total Maritime Commission construction. Kaiser's ships were completed in two-thirds the time and a quarter the cost of the average of all other shipyards. Liberty ships were typically assembled in a little over two weeks.
Does that remind you of something the MC did?

You keep talking about infrastructure this... infrastructure that, when the raw fact is the infrastructure was built ontop of the steam engine.
Not the other way arround.

Meaning... the generation does not bring out innovation.
Its the Innovation which brings out the generation, hence the term Industrial Revolution.
Basically what im saying is, what is discovered, and brought about by technology will fuel the age the current generation is at.

And if u really want to try to play history with me..
Heron back i early greece, roughly 10-70AD concieved the notion of a steam engine.
He even built toys from them, yet he never realized the practicality and use for a instrument such as a steam engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

So please dont tell me the japanese cant make a steam engine if Heron could make a toy version of one.
And please dont tell me the MC has no way to make pratical use of such invention which Heron was lost at, because the MC knows exactly what a steam engine could produce.

Anyhow im done with this history topic.
Its a fact, they could make one, the MC obviously knows the potential in what its used for, and he knows exactly how to use it.
Which Heron on the other hand was completely lost at what it is capable of.

Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-07 at 02:03.
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Old 2012-08-07, 01:49   Link #1032
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Even then they can't be mass produced.
Wasn't that because the Tokugawa Bakufu had stringent regulations on who and how many guns a daimyo can own?
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Old 2012-08-07, 01:57   Link #1033
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You're mixing the general concept of the steam engine with the portable one which is necessary for the kind of industrialization you are proposing. Furthermore, Japan does not have the adequate skill, fuel, iron or WATER to build up the system as in what happened in Great Britain. You're looking at only one part and missing the whole picture, something a lot of people also presume.

Also, as I said, modular assembly already existed in Korea. It's nothing really new in terms of the world, just that it was new in Japan.


Now, on another topic: I hope Kenshin makes a direct appearance soon.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:08   Link #1034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You're mixing the general concept of the steam engine with the portable one which is necessary for the kind of industrialization you are proposing. Furthermore, Japan does not have the adequate skill, fuel, iron or WATER to build up the system as in what happened in Great Britain. You're looking at only one part and missing the whole picture, something a lot of people also presume.

Also, as I said, modular assembly already existed in Korea. It's nothing really new in terms of the world, just that it was new in Japan.
ok i think your still thinking im talking about a steam tank.
The tank was a JOKE...

The steam engine, the stationary kind isnt.
Just take a bit of time and READ the history on the steam engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...e_steam_engine

Your saying japan has no infrastructure for the steam engine.
Im trying to tell you, the infrastructure develops after someones invented it and used it for practical applications.
Basically, the steam engine brought the industrial revolution, not vice versa...

Also can u link this about korea having modular construction? (what castle or fort was built modular?)
If my korean history serves me correct, they also built everything from one go.
All the forts were constructed on site... not off site in pieces and then assembled.

Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-07 at 02:19.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:22   Link #1035
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No no, just continue the history topic. It's highly entertaining

I got one question about Hanbei... in episode 5 (or vol 2?), we've seen that Oda forces are getting distracted by many of Hanbei's plan like stone maze. My question is: is the one who proposed the plan is Hanbei herself or Zenki?
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:26   Link #1036
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Steam Engine: You forgot water. Unlike Europe or continental Asia, Japan does not have the sufficient amount of water supplies to attempt to build a Savery Engine. Furthermore, Japan's coal are the inefficient bituminous coal, so the Newcomen "atmospheric" engine would be even more inefficient. Basically, Japan never had the resources to make a steam-based industrial revolution, having to have imported most of the coal.

Modular assembly: No one builds stone structures off-site. However, since Goryeo, Koreans have been making wooden pieces off-site and just putting them together on-site, where the pieces would click together to form solid structures.


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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
I got one question about Hanbei... in episode 5 (or vol 2?), we've seen that Oda forces are getting distracted by many of Hanbei's plan like stone maze. My question is: is the one who proposed the plan is Hanbei herself or Zenki?
Zenki carries out the will of Hanbei, although he does put a bit of twists into what he does (like the mochi thing). He's as crafty and trickery as a kitsune.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:36   Link #1037
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ummm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_...#Coal_deposits
Quote:
Japanese coal is found at the extreme ends of the country, in Hokkaidō and Kyūshū, which have, respectively, 45 and 40 percent of the country's coal deposits. Kyūshū's coal is generally of poor quality and hard to extract, but the proximity of the Kyūshū mines to ports facilitates transportation. In Hokkaido, the coal seams are wider and can be worked mechanically, and the quality of the coal is good.
ok... so i guess i see some of your point.

Oda would need to control japan to get to hokkaido to get the good coal.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:40   Link #1038
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Wasn't that because the Tokugawa Bakufu had stringent regulations on who and how many guns a daimyo can own?
But we're talking about Battle of Sekigahara here, Tokugawa Bakufu wasn't establish until AFTER the battle. That battle and the Siege of Osaka turns out to be one of the first Japanese battles that feature sizable number of iron canons.



As for steam engine,

I don't doubt they might be able to make some primitive prototypes. However, I do question whether they are capable of building engines that are powerful enough to make the concept practical or have the level of skill/technology available to build the system or devices that can make use of that engine.

But in any case it'll still need good amount of time for Oda clan to harness it, and frankly they don't have that time because of Honno-ji.

If you are sticking to the LN, they got even less time with the accelerate timeline.

But of course, if that was really what author wanted he could simply disregarded all this and go straight to Oobu a la Sakura Taisen.


EDIT:

Sumeragi's info pretty much shows that Nobunaga would have a hard time building one even if he wanted to. But really, the question for me is can steam engine be useful in combat, after all, they are still in war and steam engine might just be a useless project with the way that everything are still a mess at that time. It might not be worth it to even attempt to build one at least not until Hideyoshi's took over.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:42   Link #1039
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
But we're talking about Battle of Sekigahara here, Tokugawa Bakufu wasn't establish until AFTER the battle. That battle and the Siege of Osaka turns out to be one of the first Japanese battles that feature sizable number of iron canons.



As for steam engine,

I don't doubt they might be able to make some primitive prototypes. However, I do question whether they are capable of building engines that are powerful enough to make the concept practical or have the level of skill/technology available to build the system or devices that can make use of that engine.

But in any case it'll still need good amount of time for Oda clan to harness it, and frankly they don't have that time because of Honno-ji.

If you are sticking to the LN, they got even less time with the accelerate timeline.

But of course, if that was really what author wanted he could simply disregarded all this and go straight to Oobu a la Sakura Taisen.
I was replying to the point about how even after the battle of sekigahara, cannons weren't mass produced.
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Old 2012-08-07, 02:58   Link #1040
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I was replying to the point about how even after the battle of sekigahara, cannons weren't mass produced.
Well, after that, there really wasn't any need is there? Since Tokugawa went back to closed-door policy with limited and restricted trade.

But also at same time the problem still lies that there are only limited skilled smith, and due to closed-door their technology was once again at a halt so the production doesn't really go up. Similar to the way Late-Ming and Qing Dynasty were which eventually allows Europeans to not just over-leap the Chinese and leave them in the dust.
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