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Old 2012-08-05, 04:05   Link #81
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by MegaDarkly View Post
he leads us on with many different clues that could lead us in any direction and leave us baffled for days because we overthink all of the possibilities.
And looking back at already revelead things we also see some plot holes. When the author makes things complicated he is also more likely to make mistakes, for example miscalculation of the timeline.

So i think that when reasoning about Tobi's true identity we can drop some "evidence" because it's a plot hole. The question is which part or parts could be these fake evidences. Even now in the debates here people prioritize evidences in a different way, for example one says that Tobi's words are more important and another says that Madara's words. But i think pictures should be always more important than translated sentences, which could also be mistranslated or simply misinterpreted when not knowing the exact context.

So for example if we take away from the evidences Madara's recent sentence about Izuna being dead then Tobi being Izuna seems to the best idea. Maybe Madara said this because he thinks Tobi betrayed him and he thinks Iznuna would have never done that.

Or maybe as Hunter said the rinne tensei that Madara used went wrong. Actually it could go wrong in a way that would bring in another idea described by Hunter: maybe too much time passed between the rinne tensei and Izuna's death and because of that the jutsu could not single out Izuna's soul from those surrounding it and accidentally brought back a mixture of souls of Izuna and other Uchiha and related (enemies, other clans) ninjas. In that case Izuna's mind would be dominating this mixture but his mind would be also filled with a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings and hatred. And to bring peace to his soul which has all these conflicting feelings of past ninja who died in a world of hatred he found that the solution for himself and the whole ninja world is to be united into one singularity. Then to make himself "whole" he wants to unite in himself not only those few hundred souls but every human soul that lives. So for example Tobi is 40% Iznuna's mind and 1% for each of 60 other ninja, the knowledge being the combined knowledge of all these people would explain Tobi's vast knowledge and the strong feelings combined would explain Tobi's strange goal and attitude towards people. And most importantly it can explain why doesn't Madara regard him as being his real brother when he say Izuna is already dead.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-08-05 at 04:16.
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Old 2012-08-05, 05:14   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
And looking back at already revelead things we also see some plot holes. When the author makes things complicated he is also more likely to make mistakes, for example miscalculation of the timeline.

So i think that when reasoning about Tobi's true identity we can drop some "evidence" because it's a plot hole. The question is which part or parts could be these fake evidences. Even now in the debates here people prioritize evidences in a different way, for example one says that Tobi's words are more important and another says that Madara's words. But i think pictures should be always more important than translated sentences, which could also be mistranslated or simply misinterpreted when not knowing the exact context.

So for example if we take away from the evidences Madara's recent sentence about Izuna being dead then Tobi being Izuna seems to the best idea. Maybe Madara said this because he thinks Tobi betrayed him and he thinks Iznuna would have never done that.

Or maybe as Hunter said the rinne tensei that Madara used went wrong. Actually it could go wrong in a way that would bring in another idea described by Hunter: maybe too much time passed between the rinne tensei and Izuna's death and because of that the jutsu could not single out Izuna's soul from those surrounding it and accidentally brought back a mixture of souls of Izuna and other Uchiha and related (enemies, other clans) ninjas. In that case Izuna's mind would be dominating this mixture but his mind would be also filled with a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings and hatred. And to bring peace to his soul which has all these conflicting feelings of past ninja who died in a world of hatred he found that the solution for himself and the whole ninja world is to be united into one singularity. Then to make himself "whole" he wants to unite in himself not only those few hundred souls but every human soul that lives. So for example Tobi is 40% Iznuna's mind and 1% for each of 60 other ninja, the knowledge being the combined knowledge of all these people would explain Tobi's vast knowledge and the strong feelings combined would explain Tobi's strange goal and attitude towards people. And most importantly it can explain why doesn't Madara regard him as being his real brother when he say Izuna is already dead.
That sounds a lot like Envy's true from from FMA Brotherhood. Tobi like Envy "could" be an amalgamation of different shinobi's souls (which could explain the distance personalities) or he could just be a big liar/troll.
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Old 2012-08-05, 09:01   Link #83
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Good idea about sending a clone to the alternate dimension...Tobi is severely depowered IMO now that kakashi has figured out it is only one jutsu. I hope that he makes an attempt to actually cancel Tobi jutsu (just like Tobi did) therefore preventing him from phasing out that way narutos attack land full on....unless the 10 tails or edo Madara interferes...
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Old 2012-08-05, 12:54   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
And looking back at already revelead things we also see some plot holes. When the author makes things complicated he is also more likely to make mistakes, for example miscalculation of the timeline.

So i think that when reasoning about Tobi's true identity we can drop some "evidence" because it's a plot hole. The question is which part or parts could be these fake evidences. Even now in the debates here people prioritize evidences in a different way, for example one says that Tobi's words are more important and another says that Madara's words. But i think pictures should be always more important than translated sentences, which could also be mistranslated or simply misinterpreted when not knowing the exact context.

So for example if we take away from the evidences Madara's recent sentence about Izuna being dead then Tobi being Izuna seems to the best idea. Maybe Madara said this because he thinks Tobi betrayed him and he thinks Iznuna would have never done that.

Or maybe as Hunter said the rinne tensei that Madara used went wrong. Actually it could go wrong in a way that would bring in another idea described by Hunter: maybe too much time passed between the rinne tensei and Izuna's death and because of that the jutsu could not single out Izuna's soul from those surrounding it and accidentally brought back a mixture of souls of Izuna and other Uchiha and related (enemies, other clans) ninjas. In that case Izuna's mind would be dominating this mixture but his mind would be also filled with a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings and hatred. And to bring peace to his soul which has all these conflicting feelings of past ninja who died in a world of hatred he found that the solution for himself and the whole ninja world is to be united into one singularity. Then to make himself "whole" he wants to unite in himself not only those few hundred souls but every human soul that lives. So for example Tobi is 40% Iznuna's mind and 1% for each of 60 other ninja, the knowledge being the combined knowledge of all these people would explain Tobi's vast knowledge and the strong feelings combined would explain Tobi's strange goal and attitude towards people. And most importantly it can explain why doesn't Madara regard him as being his real brother when he say Izuna is already dead.
explains the "Tobi is a good boy" side as well.
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Old 2012-08-05, 12:58   Link #85
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
Good idea about sending a clone to the alternate dimension...Tobi is severely depowered IMO now that kakashi has figured out it is only one jutsu. I hope that he makes an attempt to actually cancel Tobi jutsu (just like Tobi did) therefore preventing him from phasing out that way narutos attack land full on....unless the 10 tails or edo Madara interferes...
Something has to interfere given when have the entire army showing up. The army and K11 add nothing to this fight at the moment.

So expect Tobi to take the advantage in a big way. I guess the 10 tails will be unleashed or we will see some uber Tobi mode.

As much as a Tobi and Madara meeting makes sense, I get the sense from Kishi's interview that Madara is not done with the Kages.
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Old 2012-08-06, 08:53   Link #86
james0246
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As a quick reminder, there are no spoilers this week. Shounen Jump is on break, so there are no spoilers.
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Old 2012-08-06, 09:15   Link #87
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no naruto this week?
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Old 2012-08-06, 18:24   Link #88
Mateus
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As a quick reminder, there are no spoilers this week. Shounen Jump is on break, so there are no spoilers.
Dammit! I need my fix - jonesing for some Tobi, although honestly I think the next chapter would/will jump back to either Sasuke and Orochimaru (good) or Madara and the Kages (meh).
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Old 2012-08-07, 09:56   Link #89
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Dammit! I need my fix - jonesing for some Tobi, although honestly I think the next chapter would/will jump back to either Sasuke and Orochimaru (good) or Madara and the Kages (meh).
Given Kishi's patterns, we'll probably be with this fight for a while and only leave with a cliffhanger.
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Old 2012-08-07, 23:57   Link #90
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is there a chapter this week?
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Old 2012-08-08, 00:22   Link #91
milan kyuubi
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is there a chapter this week?
No... Naruto, Bleach, One Piece and Fairy Tail are all on break this week!
See James post...
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
As a quick reminder, there are no spoilers this week. Shounen Jump is on break, so there are no spoilers.
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Old 2012-08-08, 00:55   Link #92
yakumo-chan
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No... Naruto, Bleach, One Piece and Fairy Tail are all on break this week!
See James post...
THis Just Ruined My Day!!
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Old 2012-08-08, 01:44   Link #93
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That's actually not necessarily the case, typically we could have spoilers a week in advance because SJ magazines are shipped in advance.
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Old 2012-08-09, 13:41   Link #94
yakumo-chan
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I just remember something, where is Zabusa's sword? Werent Kakashi was holding it?
I really hope Kakashi keeps it, he looks cooler using it
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Old 2012-08-09, 23:18   Link #95
Alchemist007
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Heh, only just saw last week's chap. So it's certainly seeming like this could be Obito with an ability like Kakashi's (since they would be from the same eye set).
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Old 2012-08-09, 23:50   Link #96
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Heh, only just saw last week's chap. So it's certainly seeming like this could be Obito with an ability like Kakashi's (since they would be from the same eye set).
Do the eyes work that way? We've only really seen two sets so far, so its hard to say what the eyes can do or how they are matched together. Still, there are some potential assumptions that can be made based on what we have seen thus far.

The first set, Itachi's eyes, had two distinct techniques (Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu) that combined to form a third (Susano'o). The second set, Sasuke's eyes, had one distinct technique (Amaterasu) and a support ability to the distinct technique (Enton) that combined together to form another distinct technique (Susano'o). (Of course, there is still some debate as to whether or not Enton is Sasuke's other MS technique, or if he also has Tsukuyomi, only weaker than Itachi's (much the same as Sasuke's Amaterasu being more powerful than Itachi's).)

If Tobi's technique is an MS jutsu, and it is Obito's other eye, then Obito's eyes do not follow either of the preexisting patterns for the MS. Specifically, Tobi's technique already does Kamui but with something extra (being able to send and return), consequently it is neither truly distinct from Kakashi's eye nor is it a support for Kakashi's eye (and Kakashi's eye technique is neither distinct nor a support for Tobi's eye (since Kakashi's eye is inferior)).

In other words, what is the point of Obito having two eyes that do not help each other (Tobi, if he is using Obito's eye, obviously doesn't need help from Kakashi's eye to do whatever it is he is doing) or simply do similar techniques?

Additionally, even considering that Obito's eyes could be similar to Shisui's (which seem to have only had one MS technique copied in each eye (which is explained due to the fact that the technique has a 1 year cool down period in between uses), Kakashi's and Tobi's techniques, while similar, are too different for them to be the same technique since one is clearly superior to the other (admittedly, Kakashi's chakra could have negatively influenced his borrowed eye, or maybe the full eye power only develops in an Uchiha body (of which only part of Tobi's body can be considered Uchiha)).

What we do know is that other MS's have existed in the past, and some abilities and techniques are already known (Amaterasu and Susano'o are shared between Sasuke and Itachi (and Susano'o has been confirmed for many other MS users), and it has been hinted at multiple times that other MS users have had the same techniques ( in the past). So, even if Kakashi and Tobi's technique is the same (or close enough), that does not mean the eyes came from the same source, it could simply mean that the eyes are able to access similar powers like other eyes in the past have already done.
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Old 2012-08-10, 00:01   Link #97
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Sasuke's second ability isn't Enton, it's Kagutsuchi.
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Old 2012-08-10, 00:25   Link #98
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Sasuke's second ability isn't Enton, it's Kagutsuchi.
I thought Kagutsuchi was a technique derived from Enton (similar to the shield and the projectile magatamas used in conjunction with Susano'o)? Or is Enton simply the elemental name (ala Katon)?
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Old 2012-08-10, 01:03   Link #99
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The latter.
Basically Enton are the black flame themselves or rather the field of jutsu making use of them. Amaterasu is such a jutsu, the ability to summon and move those flames with your sight, whereas Kagutsuchi is the ability to apply Keitai Henka to the flames in order to manipulate their forms, movement and purpose.
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Old 2012-08-10, 01:34   Link #100
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That still doesn't explain how two jutsu that look completely different are the same.
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