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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 12 19.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 41.94%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 32.26%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 6.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-07, 08:10   Link #61
Pocari_Sweat
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Just ignore FredFriendly, he's definitely a troll. He started accusing me of being a sexist and decided to go on a moral crusade at me for using the word "asshole" on the Tari Tari thread when I was describing the music teacher couple of episodes back.

Anyways, regarding the ep. Yeh, I do agree that Hyouka is starting to drag again like it did with the Eba arc, and the Mayaka being bullied is starting to drag as well. This is like what the 3rd episode it's shown that now with close to nothing being done about it? I'm also starting to get really sick of Chitanda now. Out of all the characters, she has hardly developed throughout the 16 episodes. Same curious beaver attitude, same somewhat "moeblob" antics and the same gags (dem purple eyes) used over and over again. It's getting quite old now. Should stop the Manzai like repetitive gag comedy Kyoani. The only thing that has developed is some subtle romance between her and Oreki, but Oreki is too damn lazy to care .

Chitanda: Oreki-san... do you want to go out with me?
Oreki: That's not a very energy conserving activity though?
Chtanda: But I'm curious Oreki-san!
Oreki: I'ma do very adult things to you if you do.
*Chitanda's purple eyes suddenly dim*

On the flipside, the male characters continue to get significant development, particularly Satoshi. He's starting to get really frustrated and I wouldn't be surprised if he actually snaps at some point and punches Oreki in the face or something. Though close friends, he clearly envy and despises Oreki's "lazy" attitude despite having massive talent in the analysis department. Untapped talent in other words.
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Old 2012-08-07, 10:54   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
excellent point. Satoshi does seem smart enough to be able to resolve the minor details of the mystery so the complete solution remains coherent while Oreki resolves the major part. If Oreki gets Eru involved with solving the mystery, Eru may in fact bring attention to new mysteries by asking even more questions due to her curious nature like in the last arc. By being confronted with so many mysteries to solve, Oreki may feel overwhelmed. Oreki is exasperated by Chitanda's never satisfied curiosity and thus to conserve energy, decides not to consult Chitanda in solving the mystery. That and Chitanda is pretty much useless when it comes to solving mysteries.
I think in this case Chitanda may be more useful in helping solve the mystery than one would think. After all again those sharp senses picked up on something (this time the visual connection between the manga and poster). Having the manga doesn't help too much in solving the crime, but knowing some people behind it helps give you some direction. At the very least Mayaka and Chitanda can bring that into the investigation and help it take a step further than either Satoshi or Houtarou can alone.

Certainly something to be worried about with Chitanda bringing more on to his plate, but some of those things are related. She helps bring in more pieces and having more useful things to consider does help.

They probably won't figure this all out until the whole group comes together to consult. Think Houtarou is still trying to guard himself from failure like last time and if he's wrong it will be pointed out when he talks to the group.
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Old 2012-08-07, 13:24   Link #63
GalacticPulsar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper
The last arc also provided an example of Houtarou doing the investigation himself and indeed he missed a lot of important points. He did great on what people fed him, but he was not good by himself
That was actually quite uncharacteristic of Houtarou to not realize the flaw in his theory.In the end he did solve most of the mystery by himself. What did Satoshi, Mayaka or Chitanda contribute anyways? While they did point out that Houtarou's theory was flawed, did they help formulate a new theory? No. Because their roles are minimal in solving the mystery(doing the grunt work like info gathering or noticing all these small details) while Oreki is the one thinking up the solution. It's true that he needs people to feed him the info but obtaining information is not a particular talent. It's something anyone can do.The point is Satoshi is still talentless from what is shown so far and Oreki just needs an assistant to snoop around to get information for him to solve the mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper
Finally, I think he is simply unaware of Satoshi's feeling. Remember when he told Satoshi that he think Satoshi can be the best Sherlockian if he put his mind into it? I don't think he would say that if he simply didn't care
Does Oreki really think Satoshi can be the best Sherlockian? Probably not. Part of saying that was because Oreki felt bad for Satoshi when Satoshi was in his pitiful mood( how he went on and on about how he was a jack of all trades but master of none). It's kind of annoying for Oreki too when Satoshi keeps on insisting that Oreki's talented. It's like you are the smartest student in the class and some other less bright student keeps on saying how he or she will never be as smart as you and you being the nice person you are, tells him that he too can be as great a student if he puts his mind to it. It's just being polite. That is not to say Oreki doesn't think Satoshi has any talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper
He think that he is "normal" because he cannot be as great as his sister.
I like this theory.This theory is very likely to be true.Hopefully the show will address that part of Oreki's character. Tomoe is a very interesting character.She's probably pretty hot too. There should be more Tomoe in this show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro
I think that what you call a "superiority complex" is in fact, as others have pointed out, a failure on Oreki's part to be able to socialize properly.
Yes, I will admit I went a bit far to say Oreki has a "superiority complex". But at the same time, why wouldn't Oreki feel he's more special than the others because of his rare deductive abilities? Even if he doesn't realize he's outstanding now, he eventually will.It's not impossible to say that he is both self absorbed and bad at socializing/expressing his feelings. He pretty much only cares for himself. How you characterize Oreki at the end of the day is all opinion based. I will probably read the light novels to see if it goes into Oreki's character in more detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight
I think in this case Chitanda may be more useful in helping solve the mystery than one would think. After all again those sharp senses picked up on something (this time the visual connection between the manga and poster).
Indeed.One of the past episodes has alluded to Chitanda's good sense of smell.I will concede that Oreki at the present does need the help of the entire classics club to solve the mystery. Maybe at the end of this arc Oreki may realize Chitanda isn't as useless as she seems to be if the manga itself becomes the key to solving the mystery.In which case Tomoe obviously knows a lot more about the mystery than what she is letting on. Is anyone going to speculate on the solution of the mystery btw? People seem to do more of that on the other Hyouka threads.
Btw I'm a new member of animesuki and I have to say the discussions on animesuki are imo much better than those on myanimelist.net. Too much trolling and name calling in that forum. Most of the people in animesuki seem to be respectful.

Last edited by GalacticPulsar; 2012-08-07 at 13:57.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:13   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
. It's true that he needs people to feed him the info but obtaining information is not a particular talent. It's something anyone can do.The point is Satoshi is still talentless from what is shown so far and Oreki just needs an assistant to snoop around to get information for him to solve the mystery.
Obtaining information may not be a particular talent, but it does require a particular kind of person - the kind that can move around easily and have lots of resources to obtain as much information as possible.

There is a clear difference in the most recent episodes between Satoshi, who has no problem communicating with others and is knowledgable about the school, and Eru, who is getting visibly tired from having to move around.

Eru may have sharper senses than Houtarou and Satoshi, but she is only curious about what she cares about. For anything outside of her interests, she is clumsy. Satoshi may not be as sharp, but he has the best connections.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:17   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
Indeed.One of the past episodes has alluded to Chitanda's good sense of smell.I will concede that Oreki at the present does need the help of the entire classics club to solve the mystery. Maybe at the end of this arc Oreki may realize Chitanda isn't as useless as she seems to be if the manga itself becomes the key to solving the mystery.In which case Tomoe obviously knows a lot more about the mystery than what she is letting on. Is anyone going to speculate on the solution of the mystery btw? People seem to do more of that on the other Hyouka threads.
Btw I'm a new member of animesuki and I have to say the discussions on animesuki are imo much better than those on myanimelist.net. Too much trolling and name calling in that forum. Most of the people in animesuki seem to be respectful.
Chitanda's unusually strong senses really do pop into focus every now and then. Her hearing was key during that cooking battle so she knew that someone was calling for Satoshi. Of course I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that someone with hypno eyes has strong natural skills .

I have no doubt Tomoe has this whole thing solved and handed that manga to Houtarou to help him along. With all the focus on the manga club I have no doubt that manga is key to this whole mystery.

In the end not too surprised Houtarou isn't calling them all in right now. He's only just recovered from last arc. Took all of 11.5 to really get back to 'normal'. Don't think he wants heavy expectations right now though. Doesn't want people counting on him to solve this and then failing. Right now can jsut work through it on his own without too much risk. But if Chitanda thinks he has something then he'll feel the expectations since when it comes down to it he doesn't feel that something is solved unless Chitanda is satisfied by it.

Kind of held back on speculating on the mystery after last arc the mystery we were all speculating on wasn't the one that mattered. They key maybe more figuring what is really important to figure out regarding this situation. Is it the thief's identity, motive, what happened to that manga group, what Houtarou is going to get as his final trading object, etc?

Still if we're talking about the thefts I do think someone is trying to recreate the manga in some physical sense. Clearly they can't just make the manga they wanted to for this year, so in it's place something else is happening. If the School President is connected then there may be no backlash for the person doing all this and it might be unofficially sanctioned/turned into a surprise event.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:24   Link #66
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Regarding Houtarou's feelings toward Chitanda... I think they're similar to his love/hate relationship with the idea of rose-colored life. Mostly because she always seem to bring that color into his life, whether he wants her to or not.

This time... Precisely because he's seriously trying to solve the mystery, he doesn't want to get disrupted by her.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:38   Link #67
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I think that Houtarou finds Chitanda intriguing. Not just because of her lovely looks, although that is a factor, but also because of her unusually charming and disarming mannerisms, consistently upbeat nature, and insatiable curiosity.

But while Houtarou finds Chitanda intriguing, I don't think that she's gained his respect yet, whereas Satoshi has (at least to some degree). I think that Houtarou views Chitanda as someone who's naive, a bit sheltered, and a bit lacking in good reasoning skills.

Given that this is a girl who was once seriously puzzled over why she became angry with a teacher... I can't entirely fault Houtarou for his views here.


Chitanda is a charming character, and I do think she's intelligent in a basic book-smarts way, but she does have a certain cluelessness to her at times.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:45   Link #68
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all those 11.5 spoilers
i know it is to be expected to see talk from previous ep in laters eps threads but i was saving it for when i could watch 30sec of it without getting eye cancer.


I realy dont think that gathering infos isnt a talent. i mean it need socializing skill (wich in itself is a talent) to talk to peoples and make them talk (hypno eyes is a gameshark trick it dont count !).
it also need a good memory (i can't see chitanda beiing as efficient as satoshi with her lack of focus).

Satoshi know who to contact, have a good net of people he know, is easy to talk to, have a good memory. I think he also do fairly well at extracting the most important information from what they have.
His trully big down point is that he can't seem to be able to make relations between the informations he got and he rush to quickly to conclusion (like his mistake with trying to catch the culprit redhanded).

i wouldn't call Satoshi skillless, he just have the bad role that isn't flashy like Oreki's is.
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Old 2012-08-07, 14:45   Link #69
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I think that Houtarou didn't talk to all of them because, like FlareKnight said, he just recovered from the last arc and he doesn't want to get everyone's hopes up. Especially Chitanda's, since I think it is safe to assume that she is *special* to him. It's clear she has high expectations, so he wants to seriously try and solve this mystery (+ he's interested himself). Happy Chitanda = happy Houtarou (well, at least content). And the fact that he trusted Satoshi enough to ask him for help makes it even worse for Satoshi. Not only is he doubting his own abilities, and, let's say, "value", now he also feels guilty for becoming jealous when Houtarou get's serious and almost solves the mystery just by sitting in the classroom when he's been running around. Satoshi's situation suuuucks.
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Old 2012-08-07, 15:22   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lota
It's clear she has high expectations, so he wants to seriously try and solve this mystery (+ he's interested himself).
It is really baffling that Chitanda is having such an effect on changing Houtarou's way of life. The whole energy conserving lifestyle of his is slowly being replaced by a much more rosier one. Why would Oreki want to meet Chitanda's expectations? If he disappoints Chitanda by not being able to solve the mystery, then Chitanda wouldn't always go to him every time she is "curious", which would make for a "happy" houtarou. The old Oreki from episode 1 would try to avoid Chitanda as often as possible. By feeding Chitanda's curiosty more, it will or already has become a habit for Chitanda to rely on Oreki. Why doesn't Chitanda figure out the mysteries herself instead of relying on Oreki? She's the most "curious" one of them all anyways. Oreki's life must suck.
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Old 2012-08-07, 16:41   Link #71
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I'm pretty sure all that doesn't need explaining- Mayaka already pointed out to him previously that he could just say no to Chitanda as well, to which Oreki only replied that it's because he can't say 'no' to her that's why he's doing all this. Even Mayaka realized the meaning of it.

Lol, like Zeross, I suffered through the horrendous quality of episode 11.5 But it was worth it, because it does show clearly that whether Oreki himself admits it or not, he does value what Chitanda thinks of him.
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Old 2012-08-07, 16:42   Link #72
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It's not so bad on a phone screen. I couldn't watch on my computer, though.
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Old 2012-08-07, 17:27   Link #73
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It's not so bad on a phone screen. I couldn't watch on my computer, though.
When I watched it on my com, I shrunk the screen to 15x15cm
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Old 2012-08-07, 19:13   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What are you talking about? She said she liked the work. But that she left the final judgment to the readers.

Lol uhh I meant that if the katana girl is the one who wrote the author's note in the manga and was part of the group that made the manga, it'll be good for Mayaka if she ever has another debate with her. Since the author's note said that they liked it, it'll be easy to convince her it was a masterpiece. Even Houtarou thinks so since he couldn't put it down when reading it


Regarding Chitanda I love how well she and Houtarou go together and how she's constantly surprising him and making him act out of his way to do things for her. It's sweet. But I wish Chitanda had some character development too. I kind of want more from her than just a really cute female character that does really cute ditzy things. There's been some hints that she's really tired of working to spread the Classic club's name around and I really want to see where that goes and if there's another side to that ditzy personality of hers.
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Old 2012-08-07, 19:56   Link #75
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In my opinion, Houtarou does not consciously knows what he wants with Eru. Outside observers like Mayaka can see the attraction, but Houtarou seems rather oblivious to it. He is basically just applying his "old" principles to Eru, but I think his heart subconsciously feels otherwise.

Ep11.5 was the most direct moment thus far, and it probably won't be long( hopefully...) before the realisation hits him.

Cheers.
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Old 2012-08-07, 21:27   Link #76
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Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
It is really baffling that Chitanda is having such an effect on changing Houtarou's way of life. The whole energy conserving lifestyle of his is slowly being replaced by a much more rosier one. Why would Oreki want to meet Chitanda's expectations? If he disappoints Chitanda by not being able to solve the mystery, then Chitanda wouldn't always go to him every time she is "curious", which would make for a "happy" houtarou. The old Oreki from episode 1 would try to avoid Chitanda as often as possible. By feeding Chitanda's curiosty more, it will or already has become a habit for Chitanda to rely on Oreki. Why doesn't Chitanda figure out the mysteries herself instead of relying on Oreki? She's the most "curious" one of them all anyways. Oreki's life must suck.
Nah. Hormones are a wonderful thing. He has a cute girl hanging around him and a part of him loves every minute of it.
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Old 2012-08-07, 23:31   Link #77
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Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
That was actually quite uncharacteristic of Houtarou to not realize the flaw in his theory.In the end he did solve most of the mystery by himself. What did Satoshi, Mayaka or Chitanda contribute anyways? While they did point out that Houtarou's theory was flawed, did they help formulate a new theory? No. Because their roles are minimal in solving the mystery(doing the grunt work like info gathering or noticing all these small details) while Oreki is the one thinking up the solution. It's true that he needs people to feed him the info but obtaining information is not a particular talent. It's something anyone can do.The point is Satoshi is still talentless from what is shown so far and Oreki just needs an assistant to snoop around to get information for him to solve the mystery.
I would not call gathering information is something anyone can do. I would make an analogy to science research. Houtarou is a theorist, and Satoshi would be an experimentalist. While you can argue that theorists are on average smarter, it is by no mean anyone can be an experimentalist. Taking and analyzing the data can be as hard or even harder than coming up with a theory that fit them. The Higgs mechanism was purposed in the sixties, and only after half a decades of hard works of countless experimentalists that we can (almost) verify it. I would not call that trivial.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
Does Oreki really think Satoshi can be the best Sherlockian? Probably not. Part of saying that was because Oreki felt bad for Satoshi when Satoshi was in his pitiful mood( how he went on and on about how he was a jack of all trades but master of none). It's kind of annoying for Oreki too when Satoshi keeps on insisting that Oreki's talented. It's like you are the smartest student in the class and some other less bright student keeps on saying how he or she will never be as smart as you and you being the nice person you are, tells him that he too can be as great a student if he puts his mind to it. It's just being polite. That is not to say Oreki doesn't think Satoshi has any talents.
I can only disagree. He said that when Satoshi was about to leave. If it was for ending the topic, he should have done that long before. I think he actually care about his friend so he tried, in his own awkward way, to cheer him up. He just got a (fake) moral boost from Irisu, so he feel that if someone like him has a talent, his friend must has one too. Remember back at the beginning of that arc, Houtarou said to Satoshi something like "Genius couldn't have a normal live like us even if they wanted to." I believe Houtarou consider Satoshi his peer. I would not say he has a superiority complex. In fact, I think he has an inferiority complex, again from his sister.

I'm getting away from episode 16 though. Maybe we should continue this in Houtarou thread (if you want to)? And some of us are speculating in the designated thread. You may want to check it out.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
It is really baffling that Chitanda is having such an effect on changing Houtarou's way of life. The whole energy conserving lifestyle of his is slowly being replaced by a much more rosier one. Why would Oreki want to meet Chitanda's expectations? If he disappoints Chitanda by not being able to solve the mystery, then Chitanda wouldn't always go to him every time she is "curious", which would make for a "happy" houtarou. The old Oreki from episode 1 would try to avoid Chitanda as often as possible. By feeding Chitanda's curiosty more, it will or already has become a habit for Chitanda to rely on Oreki. Why doesn't Chitanda figure out the mysteries herself instead of relying on Oreki? She's the most "curious" one of them all anyways. Oreki's life must suck.
In the end of the first episode, Satoshi told Houtarou exactly that. Houtarou said he made up a mystery so that he can get it done quicker than trying to reject her. However, Satoshi told him that his decision that day will cost him more it the future. We know exactly what happened.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-08-07 at 23:43. Reason: Add more reply
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Old 2012-08-08, 04:35   Link #78
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seems like Fukube finally give up for trying to surpass Oreki in this case...

and finally we got to see some connection between Manga club's problem (Mayaka's problem) with the Juumonji case
everything has been connected

I agree that next episode should be the last for this arc

anyway, the best scene is : "yoroshigu onegaisima~~ *DUB*"
Lol'd a lot... xD
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Old 2012-08-08, 08:12   Link #79
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Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
His assumption is not incorrect.
I apologize for not using my own native language in a way that would make it clearly understandable what the intention of my utterance was. I should have said: "Your assumption that I was forgetting he messed up the last mystery is incorrect."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Lol, now I know for certain you're grasping at straws.
Perhaps you can point to anything that would lead the viewer to believe that Mr Grumpy actually likes Chitanda as a person. Other than her sexual allure, he does not seem to have a good thought or word for her. Annoyance and disdain are the two words that most befit his attitude towards her as a person. Of course, this isn't much different than his attitude towards everyone else. Conversely, it can be said that what Chitanda admires most Mr Grumpy is his analytical abilities. So what is the only thing Mr Grumpy admires about her? Her boobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
FredFriendly confirmed for troll, 1/10.
How insulting. That should be 10/10.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Haha, I hope so. Jeez Fred, give Oreki a break, you're harder on him than Mayaka is.
I would be perfectly happy if his attitude toward Chitanda changed for the better, but ever since the incident in the cafe way back in episode 2 where he displayed what I consider to be unnecessarily rude behaviour toward her, I have had about the same amount of disdain for him as he constantly shows for her. It's now 14 episodes later, and his attitude towards Chitanda has not improved. If anything, he shows even more annoyance and disregard towards her as a person. He certainly does not treat her as a friend, and, especially, not as an equal. Like many members of this forum, it seems that he would be perfectly happy if she wasn't a member of the Classics Club (or didn't exist at all). Remember how annoyed he was to find her there at the beginning of episode 1? That attitude hasn't changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Just ignore FredFriendly, he's definitely a troll. He started accusing me of being a sexist and decided to go on a moral crusade at me for using the word "asshole" on the Tari Tari thread when I was describing the music teacher couple of episodes back.
Huh? Utter hogwash! I never accused you of being a sexist. Even the moderator agreed that you used an excessive amount of swearing in your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
How exactly is FredFriendly a troll? He brings up valid points that contribute to the discussion of this week's hyouka episode. Since when does expressing your own opinions make you a troll? He may have exaggerated things a bit but his ideas regarding this episode are valid.
Finally, another voice of reason! And welcome to animesuki forums. As long as you don't express your complete disgust with other member's favorite characters or animes (like I have a habit of doing), you probably won't get flamed.
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Old 2012-08-08, 08:52   Link #80
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Another excellent, excellent ep. I have been really enjoying the arc. It is so nice to see the intense care and detail that has gone into the presentation of the series in terms of visuals, audio, etc. Of course KyoAni prolly had to pay through the nose to achieve it, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Oreki's sister kinda reminds me of a Sh Holmes/Victorique type ... presented with only a few bare facts and their mind seems to make superhuman leaps of logic and conclusions. Compared to such a mode of operation in particular Hotarou seems a little more "human" in terms of "deduction".

Ah well. 8/10 vote from me.
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