AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Hyouka

Notices

View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 12 19.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 41.94%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 32.26%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 6.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-08, 09:02   Link #81
Pocari_Sweat
Basketball > Chickens
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Pocari_Sweat Send a message via MSN to Pocari_Sweat
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Huh? Utter hogwash! I never accused you of being a sexist. Even the moderator agreed that you used an excessive amount of swearing in your post.
May I remind you that you're the only person that made a fuss about it, whilst no one else brought it up, which you constantly nailed on for 2 weeks. And stop with the hypocrisy. You've been constantly wailing on the point that Oreki is Mr. Grumpy yet you get offended when someone calls the music teacher an asshole because you hate swearing . Yet I've heard you use the word bitch on multiple occasions . Not to mention that accusation of me being called sexist was deleted so nice attempt at denying...

Quote:
Finally, another voice of reason! And welcome to animesuki forums. As long as you don't express your complete disgust with other member's favorite characters or animes (like I have a habit of doing), you probably won't get flamed.
You can hate/praise a character or series all you like. Everyone has their opinions and that's that. You hate Oreki, cool. You like Chitanda, I don't as of late (used to initially) but whatever, that's cool. I do my fair share of hyperbole praising and criticizing too. What I don't like is the way you try to police people bringing in "morality" and then cleverly shifting the blame pretending to be the good guy. You're also flamebaiting obvious audience reactions with posts like this:

Quote:
The only thing about Chitanda that Mr Grumpy likes is her boobs. He doesn't like her. He's not nice to her. He treats her like a dog. He's just like any other perverted harem MC, only seeing women as sex objects.
... I personally don't mind it too much since I'm guilty of it sometimes myself though not to your degree...
__________________

Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2012-08-08 at 09:28.
Pocari_Sweat is online now  
Old 2012-08-08, 09:33   Link #82
FredFriendly
Beyond the Fringe
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
...You're also flamebaiting obvious audience reactions with posts like this:

Quote:
The only thing about Chitanda that Mr Grumpy likes is her boobs. He doesn't like her. He's not nice to her. He treats her like a dog. He's just like any other perverted harem MC, only seeing women as sex objects.
... I personally don't mind it too much since I'm guilty of it sometimes myself though not to your degree...
I will ignore all the rest of your message for the sake of keeping this post on-topic, but I deny that I was flamebaiting with that quote, as I believe what I said, but am certainly willing to listen to logical arguments to the contrary. Prove to me that he actually likes her as a person. Does he treat Chitanda as a comrade? An equal? Or as a mere annoyance? Other than her boobs, what does he actually like about her? Does he like her curiosity? Does he like her whimsical nature? Does he like her friendliness? Does he think she's intelligent? Does he think she has had anything to offer regarding the "investigations"? Does he think it's okay to lie to her?
FredFriendly is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 10:09   Link #83
FlareKnight
User of the "Fast Draw"
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to FlareKnight Send a message via MSN to FlareKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
In the end of the first episode, Satoshi told Houtarou exactly that. Houtarou said he made up a mystery so that he can get it done quicker than trying to reject her. However, Satoshi told him that his decision that day will cost him more it the future. We know exactly what happened.
I hadn't thought of that episode for a while, but have to say Satoshi was on the mark there. Houtarou took what he thought was the path of least resistance in making that mystery to appease her. Instead he turned a relaxing downhill walk into mountain climbing . Though to be fair, think it's turned as much into him not wanting to leave her disappointed as it is now having those expectations. In that respect Satoshi remains on the mark. The change to Houtarou and his way of going about things is the result of getting so involved with Chitanda.
__________________
FlareKnight is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 17:27   Link #84
GalacticPulsar
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion
Nah. Hormones are a wonderful thing. He has a cute girl hanging around him and a part of him loves every minute of it.
QFT. Hopefully he realizes this and initiates a relationship with Chitanda( though knowing Oreki, he probably won't do so before the show ends given his personality/ not to mention Hyouka isn't that type of anime).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper
I would not call gathering information is something anyone can do. I would make an analogy to science research. Houtarou is a theorist, and Satoshi would be an experimentalist. While you can argue that theorists are on average smarter, it is by no mean anyone can be an experimentalist. Taking and analyzing the data can be as hard or even harder than coming up with a theory that fit them. The Higgs mechanism was purposed in the sixties, and only after half a decades of hard works of countless experimentalists that we can (almost) verify it. I would not call that trivial.
Good attempt at a science analogy(someone seems to be fond of particle physics) btw check out this short article [http://rimcountrygazette.blogspot.in...ars-rover.html pretty funny and doesn't really rely on much science background(astronomy vs particle physics- observation vs theory) . But anyways, I disagree with your analogy. First of all, I would avoid making such a fine distinction between theorists and experimentalists as there are instances when they overlap. Though I do understand what you are saying.However Satoshi can't be compared to an experimentalist. The data he collects is far too simplistic to require complicated analysis.From what I understand, experimentalists at CERN need to understand the intricacies of the particle accelerators(how they work, how to collect accurate data,etc), they are reasonably well versed in the major theories in their line of work and very much focused on the details of the experiments-constantly looking at whether a part of a theory has been violated-which Mayaka does better than Satoshi in the film arc-Satoshi provides filmsy speculation while Mayaka points out an obvious contradiction in Oreki's theory). However to say that what experimentalists do is as difficult as what theorists do is simply preposterous(as valuable as their work is to science). For now, it still stands that Satoshi simply collects data, feeds it to Houtarou to analyze and interpret the meaning behind the data. Oreki then goes on to craft his theory in his mind's eye( which is by far a much more valuable ability than Satoshi's/the big picture trumps the minor details). What Satoshi does is very similar to what Mayaka does. He is the one with the common sense and Oreki consults with him to double check with his theories. It is Oreki who raises most of the interesting questions and it is him who will ultimately answers them. Furthermore the whole point of an experimentalists is to be able to verify theories however the verification of Oreki's theories doesn't require Satoshi ( as well as the fact that some of Oreki's theories are either off or remain unverified(e.g. the last arc Oreki was wrong about Irisu's true intentions in rewriting the film script). Of course I am probably taking your analogy too literally. Also I am also not a scientist so I probably have no idea what I am talking about so feel free to clarify for me the difference between an experimentalist and a theorist if you are familiar with the sciences.

Nevertheless while Satoshi's info gathering(which by the way is a skill as opposed to a talent) is hardly noteworthy, what Satoshi does excel at is gaining connections and being sociable( which btw is also not a talent- it may be but I don't consider Satoshi to be that charismatic(think Reinhard von Lohengramm or even Lelouch for that matter when it comes to having innate charisma and gifted socializing ability). Mayaka however is surprisingly sharp and probably indeed make a better Sherlock than Satoshi.
There's nothing to argue about regarding theorists being smarter than experimentalists on average
btw why are we even having such a long discussion on Hyouka? It's Kyo Ani. Kyo Ani never makes anything thought provoking. Just enjoy the anime without overthinking it .

Last edited by GalacticPulsar; 2012-08-08 at 18:34.
GalacticPulsar is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 18:03   Link #85
hyl
smile
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post

Perhaps you can point to anything that would lead the viewer to believe that Mr Grumpy actually likes Chitanda as a person. Other than her sexual allure, he does not seem to have a good thought or word for her. Annoyance and disdain are the two words that most befit his attitude towards her as a person. Of course, this isn't much different than his attitude towards everyone else. Conversely, it can be said that what Chitanda admires most Mr Grumpy is his analytical abilities. So what is the only thing Mr Grumpy admires about her? Her boobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I would be perfectly happy if his attitude toward Chitanda changed for the better, but ever since the incident in the cafe way back in episode 2 where he displayed what I consider to be unnecessarily rude behaviour toward her, I have had about the same amount of disdain for him as he constantly shows for her. It's now 14 episodes later, and his attitude towards Chitanda has not improved. If anything, he shows even more annoyance and disregard towards her as a person. He certainly does not treat her as a friend, and, especially, not as an equal. Like many members of this forum, it seems that he would be perfectly happy if she wasn't a member of the Classics Club (or didn't exist at all). Remember how annoyed he was to find her there at the beginning of episode 1? That attitude hasn't changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I will ignore all the rest of your message for the sake of keeping this post on-topic, but I deny that I was flamebaiting with that quote, as I believe what I said, but am certainly willing to listen to logical arguments to the contrary. Prove to me that he actually likes her as a person. Does he treat Chitanda as a comrade? An equal? Or as a mere annoyance? Other than her boobs, what does he actually like about her? Does he like her curiosity? Does he like her whimsical nature? Does he like her friendliness? Does he think she's intelligent? Does he think she has had anything to offer regarding the "investigations"? Does he think it's okay to lie to her?
Do you have any proof that Oreki is only physically attracted to Chitanda?
I think there might be some hints that he is attracted to Chitanda besides just physically (and some of them are subtile)
The most obvious one that i have seen was at the end of episode 6: "Even if i can predict her actions sometimes, I couldn't hope to understand her heart"

As for attitude change , Chitanda did somewhat change Oreki's attitude from the moment that they first met. If you can recall from the first episode Oreki only longed for a "gray school life", however thanks to Chitanda's "hypno eyes" he has been involved in rather many things that made him stand out.
I don't expect Oreki changing his attitude even more drastically though. He still prefers not doing anything that makes him stand out regardless how many times he actually has stood out by now.

It might be just me, but i have seen attractive looking people in my life that i couldn't stand and i wouldn't hang out with them regardless how good looking they are to me.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-08-08 at 18:17. Reason: rephrasing
hyl is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 18:17   Link #86
GalacticPulsar
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Age: 19
^not even if they liked you?............
GalacticPulsar is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 18:20   Link #87
hyl
smile
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
^not even if they liked you?............
Somewhat off topic: yes.
I have met a few girls in my life (some introduced by my parents for me to marry) who looked attractive, but i couldn't like them personality wise. Even after a few more encounters, i noticed that some of them liked me but i couldnt like them back. To me, looks aren't everything in life.
hyl is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 18:28   Link #88
GalacticPulsar
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyper
I believe Houtarou consider Satoshi his peer. I would not say he has a superiority complex.
ok. But eventually Houtarou will fully reveal his power level and realize the huge difference in talent between him and Satoshi. That won't make him have a superiority complex but I doubt he still knows the full extent of his abilities. Solving mysteries is Oreki's thing and no one comes close to him in terms of deductive abilities.He still hasn't pushed his analytical talents to their full potential.
GalacticPulsar is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 18:38   Link #89
hyl
smile
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
ok. But eventually Houtarou will fully reveal his power level and realize the huge difference in talent between him and Satoshi. That won't make him have a superiority complex but I doubt he still knows the full extent of his abilities. Solving mysteries is Oreki's thing and no one comes close to him in terms of deductive abilities.He still hasn't pushed his analytical talents to their full potential.
Actually i think that every arc (especially the last one) showed how Oreki can't use his abilities to it's full extent without the help of his friends. He still needs a "database of information" and other factors to deduce the right information.
hyl is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 19:24   Link #90
AC-Phoenix
Detective
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 27
Its sad. I wouldd really like to solve this but I got the feeling that you have to know the Japanese Language to do it lol.
__________________
Those who forget about the past are condemned to repeat it - Santayana

Sidenote: I'm seemingly too dumb for my current keyboard, so if you see the same character twice in a row, when it doesn't belong there just ignore it.
AC-Phoenix is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 19:28   Link #91
joeboygo
mechaii
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
-Snip-
btw why are we even having such a long discussion on Hyouka? It's Kyo Ani. Kyo Ani never makes anything thought provoking.

-Snip-
Oh?

You can't argue against results.
joeboygo is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 20:41   Link #92
FredFriendly
Beyond the Fringe
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Do you have any proof that Oreki is only physically attracted to Chitanda?
Nope, I cannot prove that he is only physically attracted to Chitanda. But I also cannot prove that he actually likes her as a person. I also cannot prove the existence of the god of your choice.

It has been demonstrated that he is affected by her overwhelmingly hypnotic eyes. It has been demonstrated that he is affected by her sexual allure. He finds her annoying. He doesn't think she's very bright. She irritates him. He thinks nothing of deceiving her or lying to her. Any argument here?

But has he demonstrated that he actually likes her as a person?

Quote:
I think there might be some hints that he is attracted to Chitanda besides just physically (and some of them are subtile)
The most obvious one that i have seen was at the end of episode 6: "Even if i can predict her actions sometimes, I couldn't hope to understand her heart"
The subbed version I watched had a different interpretation. In that scene he said to himself:

"Even if I can predict what she'll do, I can't actually figure out what's going on in her head"

Not exactly a subtle hint that he might like her as a person. Anything but. Perhaps someone fluent in the Japanese language could offer another interpretation of what he said. Even your original quote does not actually hint that he likes her as a person. At least I don't see it. Maybe it's just way too subtle for me.

Quote:
As for attitude change , Chitanda did somewhat change Oreki's attitude from the moment that they first met. If you can recall from the first episode Oreki only longed for a "gray school life", however thanks to Chitanda's "hypno eyes" he has been involved in rather many things that made him stand out.
If you want to call it an attitude change, then it is an attitude change for the worse, not better. Chitanda went from being someone who ruined his expectations of being the only member of the Classics Club, to someone extremely annoying and irritating who causes him to expend his precious energy.

Quote:
I don't expect Oreki changing his attitude even more drastically though. He still prefers not doing anything that makes him stand out regardless how many times he actually has stood out by now.
At least we agree about this!
FredFriendly is offline  
Old 2012-08-08, 21:44   Link #93
joeboygo
mechaii
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post

But has he demonstrated that he actually likes her as a person?
I kinda agree with Fred on this. It cannot be disputed that Orecki has been and continues to be patronizing towards Chitanda. It betrays a lack of respect for her, which is a foundational requirement for any sort of mature romantic attraction to her as a person. Then again, let's not forget that the characters are all high school freshmen. At just a few months removed from the elementary, how capable are they really of engaging in any mature romance?
joeboygo is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 01:12   Link #94
Hyper
Irregular Hunter
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
Good attempt at a science analogy(someone seems to be fond of particle physics) btw check out this short article [http://rimcountrygazette.blogspot.in...ars-rover.html pretty funny and doesn't really rely on much science background(astronomy vs particle physics- observation vs theory) .
Is this for real? It's hard for me to believe any of them say something like that. It's not like they're competing for the same funding anyway.

Back on topic,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
However Satoshi can't be compared to an experimentalist. The data he collects is far too simplistic to require complicated analysis.
Neither does Houtarou to Robert Brout and Francois Englert; Peter Higgs; and Gerald Guralnik, C. R. Hagen, and Tom Kibble, right? My point of that analogy was that they need each other. The two tasks require a different set of skills. Houtarou lacks the skills to accomplish what Satoshi can. If he put his mind into it, after some time, maybe he can. That, however, took both time and a lot of effort.

I think you image of an experimentalist is a bit off, but let's not get into that. What I want to argue is "simply collecting data and feed it" is trivialized thing. Raw data are rarely useful. They need to be filtered to separated the signal from the noise i.e. throwing out non-relevant part. And the data are not going to come from thin air. One need to find a reliable source and go collect them. A network of people is another thing Houtarou lacks. He cannot get that overnight either.

In short, it maybe true that anyone can do what Satoshi does. However, those "skills" still took time and effort to acquired. I won't take that likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticPulsar View Post
It's Kyo Ani. Kyo Ani never makes anything thought provoking.
I disagree with you on that, but that's for another thread
Hyper is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 01:29   Link #95
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Is this for real?
Considering the language used, the absence of names, and the general content of the page? Unlikely.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 03:47   Link #96
ilovejavachip
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
I don't know if anyone has noticed but you can kind of see Tomoe's eyes for a split second when she enters the Geology Room.
ilovejavachip is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 07:46   Link #97
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
As somewhat of a grey life man myself, I'd like to explain a few things about Houtarou's attitude which hopefully may be his thoughts.

1) Houtarou acting rudely towards Chitanda. At first, it was just because he didn't want to get into trouble and thinks that it's a waste of time doing so. He also recognizes Chitanda as an element of change and will shake his life, causing ripples in his current stable life. He does not want that, and prefers to stay within his comfort zone.

This behavior is true for anyone although it may manifest in different ways of reaction: Suppose you're chatting with a stranger. No matter how friendly you are on your first few meetings, there will always be a wall between you and the stranger and the strange feeling of uncertainty and rejection. There might be things that you'd like to do now - even something as trivial as doing nothing - than talking to the stranger. Talking from personal experience, strangers - for whatever reason I have no idea about >_> - loves to come up to me for a chat out of nowhere, and while the experience may be pleasant, it is extremely tiring for a gray zone guy like me. Houtarou's choice of reaction happens to be 'be straight to the face that I don't want to get involved' and if that doesn't work, 'work a strategy that would get rid the person I'm facing ASAP'. Sounds crude, but that's exactly anyone would do when they want to be alone.

2) Houtarou's continuous rudeness towards Chitanda. Their friendship had started out that way and Houtarou didn't bother to change his way of talking towards Chitanda because, well... Let's put down another example. I have a friend who greets me 'fk you' every time he sees me online. An extreme example sure, but my friend doesn't actually mean any harm at all and I understand that. Some forms of conversation sounds extremely painful to another person's ears but might just be daily life to the person themselves. It does not necessarily mean a lack of respect. You don't tend to change your way of conversation. It started out that way, it stays that way. It has already become a norm to both Chitanda and Houtarou, so why would they change their way of speech?

Perhaps the only time Houtarou is really rude towards his friends is in Episode 11.5, where he doesn't even bother answering any of his friends and practically "Mm" and "Hmm" for half of the episode. Which was later told off by both Satoshi and Mayaka, and he promptly changes his attitude upon realizing it. At least he learns from his mistakes.

3) About Houtarou's attitude 'change for the worse'. This is rather subjective. Some people may see it as an improvement because he's actually talking and participating in life and even voluntarily helping out his friends (flour for the cooking competition). Some may see it worse, because his verbal outbursts happens to be dismissive, reluctant and annoyed. At least he's being obvious about it. The guy also has basically zero social skills; he's actually better than most gray zone guys since he's just lazy and lousy at acting nice.

Do remember Chitanda herself maybe a pain for some people to handle and rude, since she basically begs for Houtarou's help relentlessly and excessively until he gives up under pressure, just to satisfy her curiosity. And let's admit it: Some of her curiosities are really nonsensical and a waste of time. That line of thought: "Extremely annoying and wasting my energy' would probably go through anyone's head if they were at the receiving end of Chitanda's curiosity fits.

Shyness is also a huge factor when it comes to communicating with each other. Gray zone guys had this mental sickness so bad it's not even funny.
__________________
Craxuan is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 09:12   Link #98
GalacticPulsar
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Considering the language used, the absence of names, and the general content of the page? Unlikely.
off topic but this is another source that mentions that story.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...cientists.html - New Yorker is a fairly serious magazine or at least it tries to be. I'm not entirely sure whether the article is a joke of some sorts but it is not impossible for scientists to insult each other in the manner of the CERN and NASA scientists. Scientists like to loosen up once in a while.

Last edited by GalacticPulsar; 2012-08-09 at 09:24.
GalacticPulsar is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 09:33   Link #99
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
A serious publication which likes to publish a satirical column. Look up Borowitz.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2012-08-09, 10:16   Link #100
hyl
smile
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeboygo View Post
I kinda agree with Fred on this. It cannot be disputed that Orecki has been and continues to be patronizing towards Chitanda. It betrays a lack of respect for her, which is a foundational requirement for any sort of mature romantic attraction to her as a person. Then again, let's not forget that the characters are all high school freshmen. At just a few months removed from the elementary, how capable are they really of engaging in any mature romance?
I have seen stories in which it works, even if someone is acting somewhat annoyed/rude against the other.

Also high school freshmen in japan are usually 15-16 years old. Because in japan they have 2 stages of education that takes 3 years each and those 2 combined is something similar to what we call high school in most Western countries.
hyl is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.