AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-08, 11:31   Link #29961
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
After that, Shannon and Kanon are just kinda ... background noise among the survivors. Don't do or say much, I dunno if Erika ever even spoke to them directly, though it would be needlessly, ridulously silly if she "wasn't aware of them" or something like that. In the Metaworld, Erika has already read the previous gameboards and is familiar with the pieces that way.
Which just raises other questions, as Kanon especially was considered very suspicious in the board narratives in a couple of cases. Why didn't Erika notice this? Even if you throw out the magic scenes and so forth and claim she never saw them, why wasn't she bothered by Kanon's disappearances in Turn? Or the Shannon/Gohda/George locked room in the same episode? Or the person Battler saw as Beatrice in Alliance? Or Kanon's missing body in the same?

For her to be familiar with previous episodes in any capacity and not find Kanon and Shannon worth even investigating is unbelievable to an extreme.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 13:55   Link #29962
Asuka0NK
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Maybe although not very likely it was just Ryukishi's way to steer the reader away from them. If not even Erika notices them maybe they really just that important but I find that hard to believe. Also about the Lion isn't really what Yasu looks like thing. Where was this started? Is it official or just a fan-theory because I really don't know.
__________________
Asuka0NK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 16:05   Link #29963
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which just raises other questions, as Kanon especially was considered very suspicious in the board narratives in a couple of cases. Why didn't Erika notice this? Even if you throw out the magic scenes and so forth and claim she never saw them, why wasn't she bothered by Kanon's disappearances in Turn? Or the Shannon/Gohda/George locked room in the same episode? Or the person Battler saw as Beatrice in Alliance? Or Kanon's missing body in the same?

For her to be familiar with previous episodes in any capacity and not find Kanon and Shannon worth even investigating is unbelievable to an extreme.
There are two possible explanations:
a) according to her 'a servant can't be the culprit'. It's not in Knox, it's in Van Dine but she decided to apply it anyway. Ergo she ruled out the servants as culprits and, possibly, as accomplices as well, and therefore she didn't bother with checking them. Kanon's body disappeared? It's surely no magic and it's likely just a trick like the one of the letter being delivered by no one... but as Lambda isn't demanding her to solve it in the trial... really, who cares?

b) When Erika joined the game Bern didn't order her to find the culprit but to pin an Ushiromiya as culprit. We know a piece can't dispbey its master. Ergo Erika would have to discharge all the evidence pointing to someone else in favour of pinning an Ushiromiya as culprit. But... what about Ep 6? Do your pick:
- she didn't like rewriting her theories (which is true) so she unconsciously refused to consider that the servants for some reason could be culprits/involved.
- she was so focused on the quiz at hand she didn't bother think back at the previous episodes to see if they contained clues to solve it
- it's a plothole
- Battler, who suggested the small bomb theory, managed to turn into the mastermind behind Ep 6 by sucking Erika's intelligence. The poor Erika doesn't know but the longer she stay around Battler the more she's going to become dumb and soon she'll resort to small bombs theories to explain how Battler escaped from his room.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 16:57   Link #29964
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which just raises other questions, as Kanon especially was considered very suspicious in the board narratives in a couple of cases. Why didn't Erika notice this?
Maybe she just trusts that dead means dead, so she never gave it another thought. Erika never used induction for solving anything, anyway. She always used brute force deduction.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 17:27   Link #29965
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
In the tea party of EP5 Bern asked Erika to solve the first four games for her.

So she DID plan to do it, but in the end she never got to it, because of the ???-TP.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 17:57   Link #29966
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
In the tea party of EP5 Bern asked Erika to solve the first four games for her.

So she DID plan to do it, but in the end she never got to it, because of the ???-TP.
Maybe she was supposed to again force an 'Ushiromiya culprit' solution on them... possibly an 'Ushiromiya Natsuhi culprit' solution but I think Bern would have no problems if she were to place the blame on more than one Ushiromiya.

After all Ep 5 bladantly ignored how Kinzo is supposed to be dead. Bern knows but accept a solution that's wrong anyway and support it. Plus they didn't care anymore about the riddle of the letter. I'll say Bern wanted Erika to force a solution on the other episodes as well, not to really solve them.
With this premise it's possible that Erika never really tried to solve them but just to make a certain theory fit on them.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 18:34   Link #29967
RandomAvatarFan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Well, I do remember that Lambdadelta did not allow Knox to use Kinzo is dead at the start of every game, even though Knox already had that red. It seems to me that neither of them really cared for the "truth" because even Lambdadelta acknowledged Erika's accusation as correct until Battler used the Gold.
Neither of them really wanted to play, they just wanted to throw pieces at each other...
__________________

Without love this picture cannot be seen.
RandomAvatarFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 19:14   Link #29968
GabrieliosP
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Maybe she was supposed to again force an 'Ushiromiya culprit' solution on them... possibly an 'Ushiromiya Natsuhi culprit' solution but I think Bern would have no problems if she were to place the blame on more than one Ushiromiya.
Correct. I'm not at my computer so I can't search for the exact quote, but I'm 100% sure that Erika said something like this:

"I'll solve the other gameboards using the 'Natsuhi Culprit Theory'".
GabrieliosP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 20:44   Link #29969
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Correct. I'm not at my computer so I can't search for the exact quote, but I'm 100% sure that Erika said something like this:

"I'll solve the other gameboards using the 'Natsuhi Culprit Theory'".
Only God knows how. Maybe if you ignore the reds and let Kinzo be running around as another culprit. But, even then...
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 21:21   Link #29970
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Well, I do remember that Lambdadelta did not allow Knox to use Kinzo is dead at the start of every game, even though Knox already had that red. It seems to me that neither of them really cared for the "truth" because even Lambdadelta acknowledged Erika's accusation as correct until Battler used the Gold.
Neither of them really wanted to play, they just wanted to throw pieces at each other...
Actually Lambda played almost no role in the trial once it stareted. It became a battle between Erika and Beato first, and between Erika and Battler after. Note that Beato, or better, PieceBeato, differently from the Beato which whom Battler had fought, had no idea of what had happened in truth nor can she use red to shoot down Erika's theories when they're wrong (and Lambda doesn't use red anymore against Erika but let her free reign).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Only God knows how. Maybe if you ignore the reds and let Kinzo be running around as another culprit. But, even then...
Erika ignored the red about Kinzo being dead in Ep 5 also plus she was allowed not to find a solution for all the tricks... and in the trial no one shoot her down with red. I think no one would stop her if she were to say that Natsuhi managed to still go around killing people even with her stomach open and filled with candies...
After all, can you really be sure she's really dead just because her stomach is open and filled with candies if you ignore the red that says she's dead? (okay, she should be dead anyway if she were to be in such state but I'm sure Erika won't let such a tiny detail stop her... she'll probably say she faked being dead...)
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 22:50   Link #29971
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
^Remember that Lambda blocked Dlanor's truth about Kinzo's study (That the windows were shut and had not been opened since before the rain, I believe it was).
And she gave Erika tons of freebie reds, which made it impossible for Beato to defend Natsuhi.

So she is not impartial.
Witch of Uncertainty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 01:46   Link #29972
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which just raises other questions, as Kanon especially was considered very suspicious in the board narratives in a couple of cases. Why didn't Erika notice this? Even if you throw out the magic scenes and so forth and claim she never saw them, why wasn't she bothered by Kanon's disappearances in Turn? Or the Shannon/Gohda/George locked room in the same episode? Or the person Battler saw as Beatrice in Alliance? Or Kanon's missing body in the same?

For her to be familiar with previous episodes in any capacity and not find Kanon and Shannon worth even investigating is unbelievable to an extreme.
Keeping in mind that Shkanon is never really necessary in EP1-4, the only sticking point for her would probably be the Piece Beato in Alliance. Good thing the "sin from 6 years ago" isn't a riddle that has to be solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Also about the Lion isn't really what Yasu looks like thing. Where was this started? Is it official or just a fan-theory because I really don't know.
Um, I think it's just a general fan consensus. For starters, the story goes way, way out of it's way to not depict Yasu visually. Secondly, the sprites aren't entirely indicative of the characters canon appearance, i.e those rampant anime-hair genetics on display. Thirdly, not only does Lion seem to be Krauss's family thrown in a blender, but they're also very purposefully androgynous looking, so either Bern, or maybe just Ryu, went out of their way to include some ambiguity in the design.

Eh, I always think of Yasu as just "Shannon", anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Only God knows how. Maybe if you ignore the reds and let Kinzo be running around as another culprit. But, even then...
Well ... being limited only by the information we currently have available, you could work a Natsuhi theory, or one with "certain irregularities based off that theme"(as she says) for every game but EP2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
^Remember that Lambda blocked Dlanor's truth about Kinzo's study (That the windows were shut and had not been opened since before the rain, I believe it was).
And she gave Erika tons of freebie reds, which made it impossible for Beato to defend Natsuhi.

So she is not impartial.
Heh, well, it's not her job to be impartial in EP 5. She has to defend the illusion of the witch, but since she doesn't really have anything at stake, she's far more willing to do things for the lulz than Beato ever was.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 09:06   Link #29973
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Keeping in mind that Shkanon is never really necessary in EP1-4, the only sticking point for her would probably be the Piece Beato in Alliance. Good thing the "sin from 6 years ago" isn't a riddle that has to be solved.
That doesn't make Kanon not suspicious though. He's the prime suspect in Jessica, Nanjo, and Kumasawa's deaths in Turn, at least according to Rosa. Erika has to account for this somehow as being more than mere coincidence. He confronts the culprit in Legend, or at least so he and Kumasawa claim; isn't that worth following up? Battler finds every single body except Kanon's and finds that it is impossible to even gain entry to the place Kyrie told him Kanon's body was located in Alliance; isn't that odd, given every other body is exactly where she said it was in exactly the apparent manner she said it was?

She doesn't even have to posit Shkanon as a solution to this, she just has to address the obvious importance of Shannon and/or Kanon to each episode's narrative. She can't simply dismiss the whole Kanon thing as "Rosa did it and was just throwing suspicions on Kanon!" without explaining what happened to him and how he appeared to return from the dead. Even if she denies any of it happened and was all lies to make the servants suspects, it would have drawn Erika's attention to those servants and the fact that they are clearly up to something. Something she's obligated to explain if the game is even remotely fair and the story even remotely reasonable.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 09:24   Link #29974
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That doesn't make Kanon not suspicious though. He's the prime suspect in Jessica, Nanjo, and Kumasawa's deaths in Turn, at least according to Rosa. Erika has to account for this somehow as being more than mere coincidence. He confronts the culprit in Legend, or at least so he and Kumasawa claim; isn't that worth following up? Battler finds every single body except Kanon's and finds that it is impossible to even gain entry to the place Kyrie told him Kanon's body was located in Alliance; isn't that odd, given every other body is exactly where she said it was in exactly the apparent manner she said it was?

She doesn't even have to posit Shkanon as a solution to this, she just has to address the obvious importance of Shannon and/or Kanon to each episode's narrative. She can't simply dismiss the whole Kanon thing as "Rosa did it and was just throwing suspicions on Kanon!" without explaining what happened to him and how he appeared to return from the dead. Even if she denies any of it happened and was all lies to make the servants suspects, it would have drawn Erika's attention to those servants and the fact that they are clearly up to something. Something she's obligated to explain if the game is even remotely fair and the story even remotely reasonable.
I don't really think the game is fair... and she ignores the servants anyway.
Even when she was trying to pin Natsuhi in Kinzo's study she never said anything about the servants trying to support her in her lies.

She knows Kinzo is already dead and therefore the servants are accomplices in at least keeping alive the illusion he's still living but... she doesn't care at all.

The one she wants to pin is Natsuhi. The servants could as well not exist.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 10:22   Link #29975
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
I guess the servants really are just "furniture" to her, except possibly Ghoda.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 11:23   Link #29976
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She doesn't even have to posit Shkanon as a solution to this, she just has to address the obvious importance of Shannon and/or Kanon to each episode's narrative. She can't simply dismiss the whole Kanon thing as "Rosa did it and was just throwing suspicions on Kanon!" without explaining what happened to him and how he appeared to return from the dead. Even if she denies any of it happened and was all lies to make the servants suspects, it would have drawn Erika's attention to those servants and the fact that they are clearly up to something. Something she's obligated to explain if the game is even remotely fair and the story even remotely reasonable.
I think that's the point of her, though: Erika just fundamentally doesn't care about or understand the idea of "narrative significance", because to her the narrative is nothing but a worthless smokescreen the game master is trying to deceive her with. Judging from how she reacted to the fantasy scenes in EP6, she doesn't even bother to pay attention to it.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 13:58   Link #29977
Asuka0NK
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post


Um, I think it's just a general fan consensus. For starters, the story goes way, way out of it's way to not depict Yasu visually. Secondly, the sprites aren't entirely indicative of the characters canon appearance, i.e those rampant anime-hair genetics on display. Thirdly, not only does Lion seem to be Krauss's family thrown in a blender, but they're also very purposefully androgynous looking, so either Bern, or maybe just Ryu, went out of their way to include some ambiguity in the design.

Alright the main reason I'm asking is so that I don't make the Yasu sprite incorrect and getting people telling me "Yasu doesn't look like Lion." Also anime hair isn't really a problem in Umineko. All the humans have real hair colors the only people that don't are the witches who have ridiculous hair colors to stand out more I guess or just because it fits. I just wanted to make sure I make the sprite right where no one would complain.
__________________
Asuka0NK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 17:02   Link #29978
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think that's the point of her, though: Erika just fundamentally doesn't care about or understand the idea of "narrative significance", because to her the narrative is nothing but a worthless smokescreen the game master is trying to deceive her with. Judging from how she reacted to the fantasy scenes in EP6, she doesn't even bother to pay attention to it.
How is the presentation of a strong suspect a "smokescreen?" If nothing else, she has to get around Kanon's disappearances and stuff in order to frame Natsuhi, as otherwise the witch side can be like "Well what if Kanon is still alive and did it?"
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 18:12   Link #29979
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
How is the presentation of a strong suspect a "smokescreen?" If nothing else, she has to get around Kanon's disappearances and stuff in order to frame Natsuhi, as otherwise the witch side can be like "Well what if Kanon is still alive and did it?"
The problem is that the witch side... well, it doesn't exist anymore. Lambda isn't fighting Erika and theoretically Beato and Battler should have ended out of the game when they failed to counter Erika's solution.
Basically the witch side isn't defended anymore or even represented.
Erika can say what she wants and who'll come to stop her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Alright the main reason I'm asking is so that I don't make the Yasu sprite incorrect and getting people telling me "Yasu doesn't look like Lion." Also anime hair isn't really a problem in Umineko. All the humans have real hair colors the only people that don't are the witches who have ridiculous hair colors to stand out more I guess or just because it fits. I just wanted to make sure I make the sprite right where no one would complain.
If you want to play save you'll better wait for the manga version of Ep 7 to come out. If it were to offer a portrait of Yasu who's different from Lion people might take it as canon and complain.

So far though the best Yasu portray the manga offered is in EP 8 chap 3.

... which honestly looked more like Shannon than Lion...

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 07:05.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 18:15   Link #29980
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think that's the point of her, though: Erika just fundamentally doesn't care about or understand the idea of "narrative significance", because to her the narrative is nothing but a worthless smokescreen the game master is trying to deceive her with. Judging from how she reacted to the fantasy scenes in EP6, she doesn't even bother to pay attention to it.
Under which perspective she claims that the gameboard she's playing with is a "third rate mystery" then, I wonder? The quality of the riddles?

Erika doesn't even seem to care about those either, she buldozes whatever riddle is existing by creating her own plots. If she really cared about those she'd play by the rules and she'd try to solve those rather than make up a new sultion entirely by either framing the wrong person or by becoming the culprit herself.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.