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Old 2012-08-08, 16:19   Link #81
Jinx999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Except that Kayaba didn't do that -- nothing about the world he set up requires players to PK each other. That's something they do of their own volition, knowing that full well that at least part of Kayaba's threat must be true and therefore the wisest move is to take the whole thing seriously.
Like I said, he provided raquet and balls. He did not compel people to play matches. He merely provided the tools they used to do so.
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:24   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Jinx999 View Post
Like I said, he provided raquet and balls. He did not compel people to play matches. He merely provided the tools they used to do so.
Well, I don't think every duel has to end in death. From what we saw in the brief cut-out while they explained it, the winner of the dual does lose health but normally the match ends before they die. This implies that someone has to purposefully go over the edge to kill someone in a duel.

But, by the same token... if you're going to take that approach, it seems a bit like blaming the person who created the weapon rather than one who wielded it. It's true that the author of the game is the one who created the condition where death in the game is equivalent to death in real life, and it was in his power to change the rules of the game. But, by the same token, if not for the action of the player, the person would not have died. So I don't think it's quite like he's saying he will kill people who lose matches, he provided the tools that allow people to kill each other by proxy if certain (known) conditions are met.

I'm not sure if this is a good analogy or not... but let's say someone is in hospital on life support. If someone were to go in and disconnect the power from the life support system, the patient would die because that's what's keeping him or her alive. Similarly, the HP in this game are like "life support" for all the players; everyone is at least aware that when that gauge hits zero, they disappear from the game never to return, and they are told that if they can stay on life support long enough (until the game is cleared) they'll make it out alive. So, if someone takes a deliberate action that "disconnects someone's life support", they have some responsibility for the death. That said, I guess you could say that the game creator is the one who "caused the injury" that put them on life support in the first place.
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:29   Link #83
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Ah, but the thing is that there's also a state of infinite resources (as we see in episode one, monsters respawn shortly after they are killed) and an unlimited time factor (there's no mention of a time limit before everyone fries). Every player death reduces the chance that someone will clear the game, ergo it's a case of shooting yourself in the foot just because you're bored (which, in my experience, is the usual reason people PK).

I wouldn't be surprised if the laws would change over the course of time between when the game starts and it ends (either everyone dies or someone clears the last boss).
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:36   Link #84
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I wouldn't be surprised if the laws would change over the course of time between when the game starts and it ends (either everyone dies or someone clears the last boss).
"laws would change" only if people on the outside the ability to see what was happening inside SAO. Nothing we've seen to date in the anime suggests yea or nay on that, but since the outside world has effectively been ignored by the anime it's safest to assume no such things will happen.

As I mentioned before, I expect things will be very very quiet on the "RW legal response to PK'ing" front until a week or so after people get out.. when the inevitable "oh yah, my friend was killed by this other guy"... then the shit hits the fan, but for laws? Any new laws implemented at that point would be akin to closing the barn down after the horse has left, and someone else burned the barn down.

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Every player death reduces the chance that someone will clear the game
It's ironic, but not terribly surprising considering human nature and the drive to be the strongest in a game, that the front line players seem to utterly avoid the mid-level players and those still in the starter towns (assuming of course that a vast majority of the survivors are still somewhere around the first few levels). That's hard to infer from what little the anime has told us, but the party leader seeking front line help vs. the Titan's Hand PK guild suggests that if the front-liners aren't impacted... there may be very little involvement.

Hard to say considering Asuna and Kirito stopped working on the front lines in response to the 'murder in a safe area' case and the little snippets from their conversation about sleep PK. Too little information has been presented in the anime to-date. Let's not discuss this here, it's rather off-topic.
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:59   Link #85
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I'm also interested as to how would the PKs themselves react when they learned that those they PK really did die when they came out of the game.

Is it realistic to think that, unable to withstand the burden of guilt, some of them will eventually confess to the authorities?

How would these people be processed then?
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:01   Link #86
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I'm also interested as to how would the PKs themselves react when they learned that those they PK really did die when they came out of the game.

Is it realistic to think that, unable to withstand the burden, some of them will eventually confess to the authorities?

How would these people be processed then?
you are under estimating the ability of the Human mind to push responsibility on others. The PKers will see themselves as victims and push all responsibility onto Kayaba.
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:04   Link #87
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you are under estimating the ability of the Human mind to push responsibility on others. The PKers will see themselves as victims and push all responsibility onto Kayaba.
yeah, I guess.

I don't really see a possible scenario of these players being convicted. Most likely all the blame will go to Kayaba and most likely all the victims' (even the dead ones) families would be satisfied by that.
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:09   Link #88
lightsenshi
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That's hard to infer from what little the anime has told us, but the party leader seeking front line help vs. the Titan's Hand PK guild suggests that if the front-liners aren't impacted... there may be very little involvement.
That's also not a surprise to me. PKers tend to look for victims, not fair fights.
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Old 2012-08-08, 21:07   Link #89
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Ah, but the thing is that there's also a state of infinite resources (as we see in episode one, monsters respawn shortly after they are killed) and an unlimited time factor (there's no mention of a time limit before everyone fries). Every player death reduces the chance that someone will clear the game, ergo it's a case of shooting yourself in the foot just because you're bored (which, in my experience, is the usual reason people PK).
You're assuming they want to get out. We've already seen Kirito adapt to life inside the game, so why wouldn't other people? And if you're the sort to get your kicks out of killing innocent players, and I'm guessing the idea of "real death" is half the fun for these sorts, why in the world would you want to leave and go back to a world where you can't?

Last edited by Clarste; 2012-08-09 at 00:46.
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Old 2012-08-09, 00:08   Link #90
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
yeah, I guess.

I don't really see a possible scenario of these players being convicted. Most likely all the blame will go to Kayaba and most likely all the victims' (even the dead ones) families would be satisfied by that.
...or all the survivors goes through endless physiological tests...?
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Old 2012-08-09, 00:31   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Hard to say considering Asuna and Kirito stopped working on the front lines in response to the 'murder in a safe area' case and the little snippets from their conversation about sleep PK. Too little information has been presented in the anime to-date. Let's not discuss this here, it's rather off-topic.
The "excuse" they used was that the murder case was a paradigm shift in the mechanics of PK-ing.
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Old 2012-08-09, 00:40   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You're assuming they want to get out. We've already seen Kirito adapt to life inside the game, so why wouldn't other people. And if you're the sort to get your kicks out of killing innocent players, and I'm guessing the idea of "real death" is half the fun for these sorts, why in the world would you want to leave and go back to a world where you can't?
There's probably some truth to this.

I can imagine some of the SAO players genuinely preferring life in SAO over their real life. Presumably PKers are at least somewhat good at the game, to the point that they can collect in-game money and item drops with some efficiency and without too much threat to themselves. With that money, they can buy houses, live somewhat comfortably, and live lives where they don't have to go to school or work as a salaryman.

Some may have found a "system" whereby a few hours per day of safely farming weaker-level monsters earns them enough money to buy the food they want and "live" where they want. Such farming may be a bit boring, but they might consider it preferable to the real world alternative (going to school, university, or to an office-job).

Also, some PKers may enjoy a degree of power, if not prestige, in the game that they don't enjoy in the real world.
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Old 2012-08-09, 01:00   Link #93
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I'd just like to chime in with a few thoughts, particularly as, as far as I can see, I'm the only person here who studied criminal law. I'll be using the British perspective, as that's what I studied.

For a murder charge to be sustained, the prosecution needs to prove two elements: actua rea and mens rea. Actus rea is the act that lead to the death, while mens rea is the guilty mind/mental state of the accused (motive is a subset of mens rea and is used to establish it).

Now, the mens rea may be easier to,prove. I'm simplifying a great deal here, but one of thethings looked at is the intent to cause bodily harm. If that can be shown and proved, 85 percent of your mens rea is done. Another question the courts will ask is whether the accused PKer was aware that an ingame death would be IRL fatal - this could go either way, but I'd suggest that Kayaba's opening statements would be persuasive in establishing that yes, PKers knew death was a possibility.

Actus rea is iffy. Prosecution needs to prove a chain of events, starting with ingame PK and ending with brain fried with microwave. Server logs will help in this regard, if they exist. F prosecution can prove, for example, that PoH killed V ingame (with server logs as evidence), and that the NervGear fried V after the PK was performed, and prove PoH had the intent to cause death or grievious bodily harm, they've got their case nailed shut.

If they can't quite prove murder, it would be possible dor the to get a charge of manslaughter, as server logs would prove the identity of the killers.

If the interpretation is that the SAO company enabled these PK to happen, the company may not face criminal charges, but would certainly be liable under tort for all deaths incurred - even if Kayaba acted alone, he enacted his plan while an employee of the company and on company time. They're vicariously responsible for him.

On the subject of shutting off life support, doctors and nurses are not liable for manslaughter or murder if it can be proved that it would not be in the patient's best interest to remain hooked up, particularly if they were in a persistent vegitative state. If the patient is in PVS due to injuries incurred by someoneattempting to kill thrm, that person would face charges - if they hadn't tried to kill the patient, the patient would not be injured, and would not have entered a coma.

This all, of course, assumes they're being tried as adults.

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...or all the survivors goes through endless physiological tests...?
You mean psychiatric evaluation. Physiology is the study of living things and how the body works.
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Old 2012-08-09, 01:26   Link #94
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I've studied a bit of criminal law (US), and I'd say they're guilty of reckless manslaughter at most. They knew there was a high risk of death, but decided to do it anyway. However, they only knew of a "risk". It's difficult if not impossible to prove that they intended someone to actually die, rather than a virtual avatar to shatter in front of them.
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Old 2012-08-09, 01:32   Link #95
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You mean psychiatric evaluation. Physiology is the study of living things and how the body works.
I knew I should have not relied on the system's <<spellchecker>>. -_-


Anyway, I've never understood how PKer's minds work that much, but isn't it that they actually liked "killing", and, whether they believe that dying = death (the extremely summarized version of people die if they are killed (online) ) or not, it should at least show in psychiatric evaluations or tests... Also, it's a safe assumption that <<SAO>> has a publicly accessed building that determines who is dead and living. (It's on Episode 1, anyway.)

I'd also like to present another way to get evidence against the PKers, but I think I should wait for the episode named "Morning Dew Girl" first.
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Old 2012-08-09, 01:33   Link #96
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I think perhaps that's putting a bit too much faith in psychiatry.
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Old 2012-08-09, 01:39   Link #97
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There is one important factor that's being overlooked. If player deaths aren't recorded in the server logs (and if I were Kayaba, I'd be just enough of a bastard to do it) then proving PK is going to be impossible (as it's not like the victim can take a screen print for later proof).

There's also the expectation that Kayaba is going to be around after it's all over. If I were him, I'm make myself the final boss that has to be cleared....
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Old 2012-08-09, 02:54   Link #98
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I've studied a bit of criminal law (US), and I'd say they're guilty of reckless manslaughter at most. They knew there was a high risk of death, but decided to do it anyway. However, they only knew of a "risk". It's difficult if not impossible to prove that they intended someone to actually die, rather than a virtual avatar to shatter in front of them.
Agreed on that point - the British system is a little different, and I was approaching things from the best case perspective. That said, I think you're right that a manslaughter charge would be a lot more likely than a murder conviction.
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Old 2012-08-09, 03:06   Link #99
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Agreed on that point - the British system is a little different, and I was approaching things from the best case perspective. That said, I think you're right that a manslaughter charge would be a lot more likely than a murder conviction.
And SOA takes place in Japan, wich has another legal system then either. Japan legal system is quite a lot more strict then the US, so if there isn't any specific laws for it then none are likely to be procecuted at all.
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Old 2012-08-09, 03:09   Link #100
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[mod edit: removed conversation thread involving novel hint]

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And SOA takes place in Japan, wich has another legal system then either. Japan legal system is quite a lot more strict then the US, so if there isn't any specific laws for it then none are likely to be procecuted at all.
It's most likely going to end that way, unfortunately. More legal blames would be placed on the Creator, while the other PKers will just roam free and try simulating the feel of being the god of life and death in some other MMO or place again ... and get arrested for it. (of course, I'm talking about the crazy ones)

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-08-09 at 09:26.
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