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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 05
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 35 22.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 41 26.80%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 29 18.95%
7 out of 10 : Good... 30 19.61%
6 out of 10 : Average... 8 5.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.31%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 4 2.61%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 1 0.65%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 2 1.31%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.65%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-08, 22:12   Link #301
AC-Phoenix
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Actually not.
She said Golden apple WAS a mid-level guild and we have at least one person proofing that several of them could front-line level now, so the assumption that she is too is not as random as you might think.
You actually just have to reverse your line of thinking a bit - assuming she was still mid level the perpetrator would have to be on front line level to one hit her again showing the possibility of the Golden Apple's former members could be on front line level now.
So its pretty fair to build a theory around that.
Don't forget their guild's no longer exists so any statement regarding their level is in terms of the past
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Old 2012-08-08, 22:18   Link #302
Clarste
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...except it actually doesn't matter at all whether or not she was high level. Seriously, look back at the conversation in this thread. This little tidbit is actually completely irrelevant to your argument. You admit so yourself when you say that even if she was still mid-level a one-shot would be suspicious. You're only defending this point because you started with an incorrect fact and you'd rather unconsciously change your premises than be proven wrong. It's actually quite terrifying how the brain can justify things like that to itself.
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Old 2012-08-08, 22:38   Link #303
ronelm2000
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Should I have to quote from the LN (I'll probably search for something like <<one-hit kills>> in Vol 1 -- I knew I saw something like that when I glanced at it to answer a question) so that this be cleared up? -_-

...hmm maybe the wrong... words. Let's just go with this:
If you think about the game being fair, it's pretty obvious that <<one-hit kills>> SHOULD be impossible. DoT skills look like it would work somehow, because damaging players with attacks, according to Kirito, should be <<impossible>> unless someone discovered a bug somewhere. It's a probability.

Last edited by ronelm2000; 2012-08-09 at 03:06. Reason: no spoilers in anime threads (relentlessflame) -- edited to remove the sake of argument and such...
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Old 2012-08-09, 02:03   Link #304
jpwong
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At equal levels, it would be ridiculous to image you could one shot another player. At best I would imagine that a person's alpha strike sword skills could take out half a player's health if they were using really good equipment.

Our situation here is hardly "normal" here though. Yoruko wasn't exactly wearing heavy armour. I wouldn't be surprised if casual clothes had an armour rating close to 0. In that sort of situation, I could see how someone of equal level who was skilled in throwing weapons and selected skills to permit large alpha strike could land a one hit kill.
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Old 2012-08-09, 02:56   Link #305
Wild Goose
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...technically alpha strike refers to firing all weapons (Battletech/Mechwarrior) or an airstrike where all of a carrier's air wing are launched (US Navy).
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Old 2012-08-09, 02:59   Link #306
Znail
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I think one thing to consider here is that Kirito is fairly smart and observant, so if something was obviously impossible, then he would most likely notice it.

Another thing is that SOA is different then saw WOW in how combat works. I think the most similar current MMO would be TERA when it comes to combat mechanics. Quite a lot of a players defensive capacity lies in actively blocking, parrying, dodging etc. This means an unarmored player getting a surprice attack could be hurt quite badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
...technically alpha strike refers to firing all weapons (Battletech/Mechwarrior) or an airstrike where all of a carrier's air wing are launched (US Navy).
It's used in most modern games as a term for (high) initial damage.
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Old 2012-08-09, 03:23   Link #307
FlameSparkZ
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Originally Posted by jpwong View Post
Our situation here is hardly "normal" here though. Yoruko wasn't exactly wearing heavy armour. I wouldn't be surprised if casual clothes had an armour rating close to 0. In that sort of situation, I could see how someone of equal level who was skilled in throwing weapons and selected skills to permit large alpha strike could land a one hit kill.
In MMOs like SAO, where you need to change your equipment every X levels, you can't judge the item's armor rating based on its appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znail View Post
Another thing is that SOA is different then say WOW in how combat works. I think the most similar current MMO would be TERA when it comes to combat mechanics. Quite a lot of a players defensive capacity lies in actively blocking, parrying, dodging etc. This means an unarmored player getting a surprice attack could be hurt quite badly.
Mabinogi is also a game with an active combat system, and SAO is quite similar to it.
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Old 2012-08-09, 05:47   Link #308
pseudonhym
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Okay. SAO episode 5 was released and I was very excited. I was disappointed though. Inner area accident was written like a detective story in the light novels, which was definitely lacking in the anime. The anime skipped TOO many details in the story just to squeeze the story into 2 episodes (which happened to the 3rd freaking episode too which i didnt get to comment on T_T. epi 2 was shortened too but it didnt affect the story too much). The only redeeming feature was the Kiri x Asu moment at the first few minutes of the story and the funny moment at Agil's shop.

Note: Sorry for whining about the difference of the anime and the light novel here, episode 3 was okay.. at least Sachi did made me jerk a tear like in the novels, but this episode was just really really lacking.
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Old 2012-08-09, 06:12   Link #309
Dengar
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Strange. The episode felt a lot like a detective episode to me.
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Old 2012-08-09, 06:21   Link #310
Adigard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I'm not sure if the Black cats's leader was still considered being inside the safe zone..
I'm just trying to point out the sole anime shown death related to falling, and trying to build a bridge towards the understanding that there are probably other (non-duel related) ways to die there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
In MMOs like SAO, where you need to change your equipment every X levels, you can't judge the item's armor rating based on its appearance.
To be fair, since the SAO player's themselves judge Kirito based on his equipment... so we can judge too ^^. We've seen heavy tank builds and light armor type player's, so armor probably does play at least aspect of defense.
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Old 2012-08-09, 07:09   Link #311
ronelm2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Strange. The episode felt a lot like a detective episode to me.
Well, to each person thier opinion?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
To be fair, since the SAO player's themselves judge Kirito based on his equipment... so we can judge too ^^. We've seen heavy tank builds and light armor type player's, so armor probably does play at least aspect of defense.
It's that same reasoning that Kirito doesn't use armors much...if not at all.

Speaking of such, did anyone of you (anime-readers) wondered why could Kirito sleep on the field on the first part of the story? I mean, it's supposedly an important thing after all... or did you just brush it off with "<<Kirito>> is a god of speed. He'll wake up in an instant when he detects someone who'll threaten him." or other stuff...

(Yes, I know the reason. Just wanted your opinion.)
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Old 2012-08-09, 07:17   Link #312
Shimapan
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To make sense of some thing which would seem nonsensical at first glance (like the sleep PKing), we need to call in mind what sort of person Kabaya, the creator of the game, is.

(This is just speculation without any LN knowledge whatsoever. I'm curious to see if it's really like this next episode.)

As far as we know, people die in RL when they die ingame, which makes Kabaya a deranged, lunatic mass murderer who has already murdered several thousands (!) of people by the means of his game.

Now we need to draw the consequences from this. Apparently, Kabaya gets off from watching all the pain, anguish, fear and suffering of people fighting for their dear lives. He created a virtual world for this purpose only, because doing it in RL would've been much more difficult, especially maintaining it over time.

Now given the wicked, sadistic bastard that he is, it would make sense for him to designate the towns as supposedly safe zones, just to lull people into a false sense of security. Then, he sneakily included features that totally void the supposed safety of towns.

With him being a genius, I can't believe that he wouldn't notice such a grave bug where people can manipulate someone else's menu. Instead, I'm certain he intentionally designed it just so that people *can* manipulate other people's menus, e.g. to accept duels while they sleep.

Besides, duels in the first place are already undermining the safety of the cities. If he didn't have any nefarious intentions, he would've never put the duel into the game in the first place. But he did put it there, just so people can die in the cities, and provided for exploits as well, so that sleep PK is possible (btw: are they still exploits if they were put there fully intentional?)

Going further along these lines, this makes Kirito's third option extremely likely: items that circumvent a town's safety and can directly hurt/kill other players in a city. They might exist already, hidden somewhere and waiting for people to find them, and/or there is a crafting skill that allows for their creation. Grimlock's weapons quite likely are such weapons. For the first guy, there's still a remote possibility that it was a duel exploit, but that's right out of the question when the girl was killed by a throw dagger, also made by Grimlock. She certainly never accepted a duel at any time, so she was most likely killed by a "can harm players in cities"-weapon.

Once it becomes widely known that the safety of cities is essentially void because you can be sleep PKed, and because there are weapons which can harm and kill players in cities, there will be a huge amount of fear and anguish for Kabaya to dine on. The amount of fear and anguish will further increase a great deal once PK guilds get hold of "can harm players in cities"-weapons, or craft them themselves, and use them for PK raids on cities. Kabya would have a field day watching the pandemonium brought about by that.
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Old 2012-08-09, 08:18   Link #313
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Strange. The episode felt a lot like a detective episode to me.
It's mostly a matter of them cutting out of a lot of the misleading details. You know, the red herrings and the clues hidden among the scenery. It's a bit more straightforward in the anime since they don't have the time to elaborate on things any further.
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Old 2012-08-09, 08:32   Link #314
FlameSparkZ
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
To be fair, since the SAO player's themselves judge Kirito based on his equipment... so we can judge too ^^. We've seen heavy tank builds and light armor type player's, so armor probably does play at least aspect of defense.
What I meant was that by floor 50+, clothes/light equipment avaliable has much more defense than it had in the first floors...but yes, the same applies to heavy armor.
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Old 2012-08-09, 08:41   Link #315
jpwong
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Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
In MMOs like SAO, where you need to change your equipment every X levels, you can't judge the item's armor rating based on its appearance.
I don't disagree, but they've shown players de-equipping their heavy armour and weapons when they're in the "safety" of their own rented property and I have seen MMOs that have costume armour that literately offers no protection as you're supposed to only use it in "safe zones". I wouldn't say it's too much of a stretch to think that SAO could also do something similar.

I was providing a possible scenario where someone could somehow be one shot killed without having to involve something like massive level disparity. Obviously if you're thinking you're going to get assassinated in the middle of a safe zone you don't go around de-equipping your battle equipment ever.
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Old 2012-08-09, 08:48   Link #316
Clarste
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Originally Posted by jpwong View Post
I don't disagree, but they've shown players de-equipping their heavy armour and weapons when they're in the "safety" of their own rented property and I have seen MMOs that have costume armour that literately offers no protection as you're supposed to only use it in "safe zones". I wouldn't say it's too much of a stretch to think that SAO could also do something similar.

I was providing a possible scenario where someone could somehow be one shot killed without having to involve something like massive level disparity. Obviously if you're thinking you're going to get assassinated in the middle of a safe zone you don't go around de-equipping your battle equipment ever.
Especially when you consider that the game might be simulating weight or other factors that literally make armor less comfortable. The idea of having casual clothes for when you're not fighting makes a lot of sense.
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Old 2012-08-09, 09:05   Link #317
erneiz_hyde
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Oh my, why do I feel this thread is choke full of red herrings from the novel readers?

Btw, cmiiw, but the anime never did explain how the players' senses act in the game right? It seems none of them can feel pain, but what about other sensation?
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Old 2012-08-09, 09:09   Link #318
Rakshasa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimapan View Post
As far as we know, people die in RL when they die ingame, which makes Kabaya a deranged, lunatic mass murderer who has already murdered several thousands (!) of people by the means of his game.

Now we need to draw the consequences from this. Apparently, Kabaya gets off from watching all the pain, anguish, fear and suffering of people fighting for their dear lives. He created a virtual world for this purpose only, because doing it in RL would've been much more difficult, especially maintaining it over time.
He gave 10.000 people an amazing world to live in, one that is anything but the grey, boring world of reality. Exactly what people playing games have always wanted.

Having such a black and white view of people is a sign of immaturity and indoctrination.
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Old 2012-08-09, 10:56   Link #319
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimapan View Post
To make sense of some thing which would seem nonsensical at first glance (like the sleep PKing), we need to call in mind what sort of person Kabaya, the creator of the game, is.

(This is just speculation without any LN knowledge whatsoever. I'm curious to see if it's really like this next episode.)

As far as we know, people die in RL when they die ingame, which makes Kabaya a deranged, lunatic mass murderer who has already murdered several thousands (!) of people by the means of his game.

Now we need to draw the consequences from this. Apparently, Kabaya gets off from watching all the pain, anguish, fear and suffering of people fighting for their dear lives. He created a virtual world for this purpose only, because doing it in RL would've been much more difficult, especially maintaining it over time.

Now given the wicked, sadistic bastard that he is, it would make sense for him to designate the towns as supposedly safe zones, just to lull people into a false sense of security. Then, he sneakily included features that totally void the supposed safety of towns.

With him being a genius, I can't believe that he wouldn't notice such a grave bug where people can manipulate someone else's menu. Instead, I'm certain he intentionally designed it just so that people *can* manipulate other people's menus, e.g. to accept duels while they sleep.

Besides, duels in the first place are already undermining the safety of the cities. If he didn't have any nefarious intentions, he would've never put the duel into the game in the first place. But he did put it there, just so people can die in the cities, and provided for exploits as well, so that sleep PK is possible (btw: are they still exploits if they were put there fully intentional?)

Going further along these lines, this makes Kirito's third option extremely likely: items that circumvent a town's safety and can directly hurt/kill other players in a city. They might exist already, hidden somewhere and waiting for people to find them, and/or there is a crafting skill that allows for their creation. Grimlock's weapons quite likely are such weapons. For the first guy, there's still a remote possibility that it was a duel exploit, but that's right out of the question when the girl was killed by a throw dagger, also made by Grimlock. She certainly never accepted a duel at any time, so she was most likely killed by a "can harm players in cities"-weapon.

Once it becomes widely known that the safety of cities is essentially void because you can be sleep PKed, and because there are weapons which can harm and kill players in cities, there will be a huge amount of fear and anguish for Kabaya to dine on. The amount of fear and anguish will further increase a great deal once PK guilds get hold of "can harm players in cities"-weapons, or craft them themselves, and use them for PK raids on cities. Kabya would have a field day watching the pandemonium brought about by that.
I'd call him deranged, yes, but not sadistic. It seems to me that he did it for a reason that's like, FOR SCIENCE! but even simpler. He did it because he could. That's the impression I'm getting. I think he just wanted to make a world and put people in it. Remember, his goal had already been achieved the moment he trapped everyone in it. He has nothing to gain from adding game-breaking features or glitches, and in fact, probably intended the game to be played as fairly as possible (hence, the only ways to kill people in town is through exploits).
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Old 2012-08-09, 11:29   Link #320
~Yami~
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Asuna is back

never imagine that both of them actually not in good terms at start... hahaha
Egil's expression is funny

and this whole mystery is interesting as well... Weapon's name might be a clue to this case...
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