AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-06, 15:39   Link #4741
Tendou Souji
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Well I was saying that because I don't even remember the last chapter that happened in the present. I know that the last thing to happen was Heero telling Trowa and Catherine to surrender but when was that? Was that even this year? Didn't the whole Robin Hood and pumpkin thing happen after that? Wasn't that abruptly dropped? Then we had this which is nice and actually interesting but it is mostly recycling old ground with a new twist. I'm starting to think Sumisawa was either dropped so they are trying to get things in order with the new writer(s) or Sumisawa is stalling while trying to spin this because of vocal dissatisfaction.

Maybe they went through all of the scripts and ideas Sumisawa wrote up and started putting tons of input into them and made Sumisawa rewrite stuff. Hence the short chapters and even missed chapters. I remember reading on 2ch about people talking about a ghost writer so maybe that is what is going to happen. Then again they are just speculating like us.
Tendou Souji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-06, 17:36   Link #4742
FalsePrime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
The rabbit hole is so deep now I don't know how much Bandai can really do to fix this story even if they wanted to.

As it stands Wing wasn't ever the biggest Gundam series in Japan so any damage this may have done could very well just cause them to let him finish it off no matter where it goes and write the whole extension off as a loss.

As it stands, Wing EW Early Types seem to have gotten a fairly large boost in viablity and overall people have taken to the designs well wether it was 15 years ago or just since Glory so that is a good thing. The silver lining to the whole nonsense is that if Glory keeps up and does well overall they might do something after FT with another writer.
FalsePrime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-06, 17:54   Link #4743
Tendou Souji
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Well the thing is that I doubt Frozen Teardrop has even actually done any damage to the Wing name or Gundam itself. The sales I posted earlier show it is doing really well in that area and they are churning out models and action figures. They already hinted at Snow White and Warlock MG kits for this year which still has 4 to 5 months left. When you read the Unicorn novels they come off as bad and cheesy too. But when touched up and animated it comes off pretty well. This project just needs more direction and to remember that it is Gundam. It needs to reveal more suits and give us a direction to go in. We know that Relena has to be killed but aside from that tons of Mars hasn't even been exposed yet. I hope after Preventer 5 they go back to long chapters with a few pictures in each one.
Tendou Souji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-06, 18:01   Link #4744
FalsePrime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
OH I would never dream to suggest that anything Wing would damage Gundam as a whole.

If Gundam can survive the AGE disaster then nothing Frozen Teardop can do will hurt the meta series. That said, I don't see Bandai/Sunrise investing in Frozen Teardrop to fix it up like the did Unicorn. AC/MC just doesn't have the pull/power that UC.

Still I will be interested to see how they handle Wing and, even more so Frozen Teardrop going forward in other media such as G Generation and Banpresto's SRW.
FalsePrime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-07, 02:19   Link #4745
Eeni
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: refrigerator box
Whatever happens with FT probably won't effect Wing, and like Prime said, do absolutely nothing to the gundam franchise. From what I've seen your either on board or laughing at the ridiculousness that is FT. If Bandai/ Sunrise was remotely intrested in saving Wing from this so-called "sequal" they would have pulled the plug or gotten a second writer to reel in Sumizawa, or completely take over the project.

If anything, just follow he Bandai/ Sunrise standard: if it's not animated, it's not cannon.
__________________
There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Eeni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-07, 16:26   Link #4746
IkuzeMinna
Shall we?
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw_kimmy View Post
ANYWAYS, carry on. I'll be lurking for new stuff with a mixed sense of glee and trepidation @_@
Aw, lurkers are no fun. Say, what do you think of Glory of Losers? The general consensus is that it's pretty dang good, especially compared to FT. What do you say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mkam View Post
Well, seeing as I was bored and it's good practice... link As usual, names are up for debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rereremo View Post
Hope I find a solution for the rest of GW manga too!!!
I'm not sure what you mean by that...? Does the "rest of the GW manga" refer to just the main series'... uh, what's the word... manga form? Or do you mean all the mangas, like Blind Target and Ground Zero and stuff?
In any case, as far as I know, only Episode Zero has not been uploaded in its entirety. All the other manga should be complete when you look them up on sites like mangafox or animea.net.

Haha, back in the day some silly people went as far as to censor Relena out of pics and mangas, claimed that BoP, BT and GZ were all doujin translated to English only because they weren't yaoi doujin and that in truth the yaoi material far outweighed the het stuff and the US was just a bunch of narrow-minded homophobes who didn't want to admit that GW was the yaoi fest the fanfics made it out to be. Well, true, there were entire shelves dedicated to GW yaoi fiction. But none of that was written or drawn by the writers of the series.
I don't think the world has ever seen such (unfounded) irate hate for a fictional character like it had been the case with Relena. Which was the main reason it initially was so hard to find a manga scanlation in its entirety, since most of them have obvious 1xR undertones and everything that could even suggest Heero and Duo don't end up together (which would be the entire series, if one had only seen it) must be burrrrrned. Ahem. Yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeni View Post
But now that you mention it, yes, I can totally see this as buying time... Or trying to establish something important between Relena and Heero (but I can't think of anything too important).
Perhaps them being cousins? I'm still waiting for that one, you know.
As for Sumizawa buying time with Preventer 5, I don't think that's true. FT's Preventer 5 is actually relevant to the MC era, as it explains how things came to be, unlike Treize's past that still needs clarification as to why it was so important and not just recycling a scrapped novel idea. Now that was filler alright. And if we narrow the scope to relevant things being only the happenings in the MC era then three quarters of the novel were just for "buying time."
And for what purpose? Usually when people draw out stuff it's because they want money. Just look at Naruto or Bleach or One Piece. There's absolutely no need for any series to last over a decade. >_>
IkuzeMinna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-08, 06:46   Link #4747
rereremo
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by that...? Does the "rest of the GW manga" refer to just the main series'... uh, what's the word... manga form? Or do you mean all the mangas, like Blind Target and Ground Zero and stuff?
In any case, as far as I know, only Episode Zero has not been uploaded in its entirety. All the other manga should be complete when you look them up on sites like mangafox or animea.net.
I mean all the mangas, like Blind Target and Ground Zero and stuff , & as I only read on mangafox or animea.net , I feel assured now! Thank you very much.
rereremo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 10:31   Link #4748
DuoRanger
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Haha, back in the day some silly people went as far as to censor Relena out of pics and mangas, claimed that BoP, BT and GZ were all doujin translated to English only because they weren't yaoi doujin and that in truth the yaoi material far outweighed the het stuff and the US was just a bunch of narrow-minded homophobes who didn't want to admit that GW was the yaoi fest the fanfics made it out to be. Well, true, there were entire shelves dedicated to GW yaoi fiction. But none of that was written or drawn by the writers of the series.
I don't think the world has ever seen such (unfounded) irate hate for a fictional character like it had been the case with Relena. Which was the main reason it initially was so hard to find a manga scanlation in its entirety, since most of them have obvious 1xR undertones and everything that could even suggest Heero and Duo don't end up together (which would be the entire series, if one had only seen it) must be burrrrrned. Ahem. Yeah.
Yaoi Fangirls are Horrible, even G Gundam, Zeta and 00 suffers from this.

in fact, duo, Wu Fei and heero's relationship its more like THIS!, than some yaoi fancrap over the series.
DuoRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 22:20   Link #4749
Eeni
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: refrigerator box
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuoRanger View Post
Yaoi Fangirls are Horrible, even G Gundam, Zeta and 00 suffers from this.
Anything that has at least 2 male characters suffers from yaoi, and Wing just has a whole cast of pretty boys! nothing is left untouched by the fangirls...

On a side note, Aoi Clark is the daughter of Heero Politician, right?
__________________
There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Eeni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-09, 22:22   Link #4750
Sommer
Hobbit
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeni View Post
On a side note, Aoi Clark is the daughter of Heero Politician, right?
That was never mentioned
Sommer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-10, 16:23   Link #4751
Ferhb
Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
That was never mentioned
Jesus, that would make him related to Treize... please, don't do that, people.

I hope your info's wrong
Ferhb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-10, 17:56   Link #4752
susyia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brazil
it's strange people think that heero and duo are supose to be a couple in anime they weren't close and hardly speak to each oder at last heero
heero is more friend to trowa and quatre than duo and strangely understand wufeis thougths
in the last episode he calls quatre quatre-kun sooo i think duo is the last person people think he would end ...
and the gundam pilots are NOT gay ....
susyia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-10, 21:56   Link #4753
DuoRanger
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by susyia View Post
it's strange people think that heero and duo are supose to be a couple in anime they weren't close and hardly speak to each oder at last heero
heero is more friend to trowa and quatre than duo and strangely understand wufeis thougths
in the last episode he calls quatre quatre-kun sooo i think duo is the last person people think he would end ...
and the gundam pilots are NOT gay ....
thats what i sayed before, Duo and heero has a Jules and Vincent friendship, the Ace and the Lancer, the Odd Friendship between a Cool Headed Assassin and a Bad Motherfucker.

but some fangirls(heck even fanboys) always luv to say that they're faggots
DuoRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-10, 22:17   Link #4754
Sommer
Hobbit
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferhb View Post
Jesus, that would make him related to Treize... please, don't do that, people.

I hope your info's wrong
What I mean its that at the moment Aoi isn't Heero Daughter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuoRanger View Post

but some fangirls(heck even fanboys) always luv to say that they're faggots
Hey! watch your mouth, there is no reason to be offensive.
I understand that people could get tired of all the slash in the fandom. I mean ,I greetly dislike all the shipping stuff by myself but there is nothing bad with thinking that a character is homosexual because there is NOTHING wrong with homosexuality. And lets face it 1xR fans arent any better, rabid shipper are gonna ruin shit no mater what they like .
Sommer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-10, 22:35   Link #4755
DuoRanger
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
What I mean its that at the moment Aoi isn't Heero Daughter.


Hey! watch your mouth, there is no reason to be offensive.
I understand that people could get tired of all the slash in the fandom. I mean ,I greetly dislike all the shipping stuff by myself but there is nothing bad with thinking that a character is homosexual because there is NOTHING wrong with homosexuality. And lets face it 1xR fans arent any better, rabid shipper are gonna ruin shit no mater what they like .
i know, i know, but im just saying that some fangirls or even fanboys takes these things on Wing to the extreme at the point to just ignore Relena and Hilde and say that they are, at least isn't worse than Batman and Robin jokes.
DuoRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-11, 07:05   Link #4756
Black Lion
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
I tend to just ignore all the romance parts of Gundam anyway. I watch these series to see robots tearing shit up, not to see poorly written Japanese ambiguous non-committal relationships. I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese story that has any kind of believable romance.

The closest it comes is with Wufei I think. He had a wife at a young age, she died, and now he fights in her memory without getting overly sappy about it. In fact I don't think he ever mentions it to anyone in the story at all. I like that he keeps to himself mostly instead of whining and throwing his problems over everyone else.

That, as well as his conflicts with Relena's pacifist views and his willingness to come to his own conclusions about war and his situation instead of following every would-be philosopher in the series makes him one of the more interesting characters in the Gundam franchise, and in anime in general. Especially considering the fact that he's Chinese, a people who are popularly thought of as being oppressed by their government and outside invaders throughout history.
__________________

Last edited by Black Lion; 2012-08-11 at 11:33.
Black Lion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-11, 09:50   Link #4757
Ferhb
Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
What I mean its that at the moment Aoi isn't Heero Daughter.
I know! I was actually talking to Eeni, I think I quoted you by mistake
Ferhb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-11, 11:18   Link #4758
Sommer
Hobbit
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
@ Black Lion

Pretty much agree with everything you said, specialy the oppression and Wufei part. I always been bothered by the Peacecraft siblings, Relena for example always talk about how bad wars are and how everybody should embrace pacifist but she never try to understand the ones who are really oppresed , the ones who are really affected by war. She sit in her throne representing people she has never meet, people who have experienced things she never could understand, and why? because she is a princess, because she is a noble.
Oh yeah dont forget her stupid brother, who is a self righterous douchebag who want to force his twisted ideas of pacifism in other people, its like "everything for the people nothing by the people".
Yeah thats why I like Wufei, he don't take anybody's crap, he fight for what he think he is right acording of what he was experienced, he dont give special treatement to none one just because the are royal asses.
Sommer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-11, 12:22   Link #4759
DuoRanger
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: who knows?
Because Wu-Fei is Chaotic Neutral!

and Zecks is a Right Hand Extremist who felt betrayed by his family ideals and he can'ty see peace in his eyes, and Relena didn't saw the other side of the war, she sees that as a noble, but not as a Soldier

And then There's Treize, he saw that by both sides as a noble and a true Soldier, and then he decided to show to everyone what he saw, the true side of the war, that there's no peace if there's no war.
DuoRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-11, 12:46   Link #4760
IkuzeMinna
Shall we?
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuoRanger View Post
Yaoi Fangirls are Horrible, even G Gundam, Zeta and 00 suffers from this.

in fact, duo, Wu Fei and heero's relationship its more like THIS!, than some yaoi fancrap over the series.
LOL Man, I really need to sit down and watch Pulp Fiction. Even if I'll get only half of what they're saying. xD

But yeah, even though I don't think they'd cuss as much, the relationship between them is definitely closer to that than the soap operas many yaoi fans are fond of. Sadly, as Eeni said, everything with two males will have a yaoi fanbase. The question is just how large it will be. I believe that's proportionate to the number of bishounen featured in a series (regardless if they ever even talk to each other or not >_>).
It's not like I mind yaoi itself, but the stubbornness with which its fans insist on the show being intentionally written with that message when really, it's just their own preferences acting up, is what gets me.

By the way pal, would you mind censoring the expletives in your last posts? I wouldn't want kids to read that. And I don't want you to get into trouble due to forum rules either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
I understand that people could get tired of all the slash in the fandom. I mean, I greatly dislike all the shipping stuff by myself but there is nothing bad with thinking that a character is homosexual because there is NOTHING wrong with homosexuality. And lets face it 1xR fans aren't any better, rabid shippers are gonna ruin shit no mater what they like .
Agreed on the rabid shippers. Heaven help you if you try to argue with logic.

But I don't think yaoi is about homosexuality. When you look at its fans, most of them are girls. And if you (can manage to) read a story, you'll notice that it's nothing like a real homosexual relationship. Because being in a homosexual relationship first and foremost means you have two men (or two women) involved with each other. And the term "chickification" didn't come out of het fics.

From what I've read, most yaoi fans (likely the pubescent ones) treat the characters they supposedly write about with such disrespect and bend them so completely out of shape that you end up with stories in which Heero is suddenly a head taller than Duo and have him all bulky and brawny and broad-shouldered whereas "Duo" is petite and slim and fragile and whatever else they call him. We're not really referring to the same character here, are we? That's a self-insert with a braid and the name "Duo" plastered on it. Which is likely why "Duo" also acts... ... ... ...man, what word do I choose that won't upset the female part of this thread? Uh, girly? As in, showering one's lover with physical displays of affection en mass and being all demure and cutesy cute and giving cute nicknames and simply loving to put one's head on the other's shoulder to be hugged and have one's hair caressed gently and- Okay, I'm gagging.

Putting my personal preferences aside, I admit, I haven't read many yaoi fics, so I'm likely unfit to make such generalizations but these are the salient characteristics I have noticed in most fics (which funnily enough, apply to the females in most het fics, too). I'm obviously excluding the few good ones here.
I don't think yaoi fans will care much about pairing gruff-looking, brawny old men that have flokati rugs sprouting on their chests. That's too "manly." It's usually the younger ones that by comparison come off as more "effeminate" due to either their young age or the artist's decision, who lack "manly" features like beards or angular heads etc. Just look at how 'uke' and 'seme' are written. The only thing that will differentiate the 'uke' from a girly chick both in character and physical build is between their legs, while the 'seme' will in the best cases resemble the original character somewhat and only have him all angsty or protective (depending on the genre), or in the worst case, will be the author's abusive jerk of an ex-boyfriend.
What's also interesting to note is the description itself; I remember one author describing Heero the usual way as tall, well-built and with sharp facial features whereas she went on and on about how beautiful Duo's eyes were and how oddly long his lashes were and blah. Meaning, although you had two males, they were treated completely differently, zooming in on completely different characteristics and of course acting accordingly different.
Or doujin. The difference with which they're drawn is jarring, both from their anime counterparts and each other.

I don't know why people do that. Maybe it's because they can't relate to the females in the show (just compare Relena and Lacus) or maybe they like to mess with gender roles. Perhaps it's the same as with males being into two girls making out. But the horny stuff is just porn, so I'm not even going to deign it with serious thought.
All I know is that this style of writing is most popular with young girls, not homosexual males. What's more is that they hardly care about the actual characters. If they look cute, they can be emo vampires sprouting wings in a highschool fic when the anime itself is about war and politics. But I wouldn't call those fans of the show anyway.
I'm inclined to blame it on puberty and the subsequent budding sexuality for the most part. But yeah, all in all, yaoi =/= homosexuality.
And I just realized I've been talking mostly about shōnen ai. Ha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by susyia View Post
in the last episode he calls quatre quatre-kun sooo i think duo is the last person people think he would end ...
and the gundam pilots are NOT gay ....
He called Quatre "Quatre-kun?" Would you mind telling me when exactly that happened because I don't remember that. And I'm pretty sure I would've noticed..?

As for the pilots being gay, I go with the usual rules of fiction. If it's not a theme and it's not even hinted at, there's no reason to assume the authors meant it's there. *shrug*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Lion View Post
I tend to just ignore all the romance parts of Gundam anyway. I watch these series to see robots tearing shit up, not to see poorly written Japanese ambiguous non-committal relationships. I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese story that has any kind of believable romance.
Hmm, the Vision of Escaflowne is the only one that comes to mind but then again, expectations differ from person to person. I think the more west you go, the more physical a relationship ought to be to be considered one..?
Besides, Japanese culture is a little different from the West, especially in terms of gender roles, and I'll hardly admit brilliance on the Gundam directors' part when it comes to romance, so ignoring it is perhaps the best thing you can do.

Quote:
The closest it comes is with Wufei I think. He had a wife at a young age, she died, and now he fights in her memory without getting overly sappy about it. In fact I don't think he ever mentions it to anyone in the story at all.
He doesn't, mostly due to the script for the Episode Zero episodes being handed in too late. lol But it's hinted at. There's a scene from episode 12, in which Wu Fei tells Sally that "it wasn't [him] who saved [them], it was Nataku." Sally asks if Nataku is the name of his Gundam but Wu Fei's only reply is "...".

Spoiler for screenshot:


To Sally it's just a small remark but you can see how loaded a question it is for Wu Fei. This is where GW being subtle works excellently. It's obviously a touchy subject for him to stop talking so abruptly. Not even Master Long dares to bring it up (then again, that's after ep 27+28, so yeah...). A shame EZ didn't make it into the series, really.

Quote:
I like that he keeps to himself mostly instead of whining and throwing his problems over everyone else.
Noin would beg to differ. But I know what you mean.

Quote:
That, as well as his conflicts with Relena's pacifist views and his willingness to come to his own conclusions about war and his situation instead of following every would-be philosopher in the series makes him one of the more interesting characters in the Gundam franchise, and in anime in general. Especially considering the fact that he's Chinese, a people who are popularly thought of as being oppressed by their government and outside invaders throughout history.
Indeed but that holds true for everyone though. Well, except the Chinese part.
Sally's convictions and reasons to fight differ from Noin's, yet they're in the same boat. Zechs obviously can't make up his mind on why he wants to (continue to) fight but in the end proves the same as Treize. Quatre goes against his father's wishes. Duo fights because "he should be the only one to suffer as much as he has," yet tells Noin he's not especially devoted. Trowa goes from feeling insecure outside the battlefield to wanting to protect someone. Even Heero loses faith in himself at one point but instead of latching onto someone else's ideals has Epyon mindscrew him into battle again. When they were all on Peacemillion deciding whom to fight, they were still debating.

This is really what I love about GW. We don't have generic characters that just blindly follow orders or other people just because it's their job or they're the "good guys" or whatever *coughSeedcough*. The characters have their own motives they bring to the battlefield, which is why Wu Fei would naturally be upset that the world didn't change one bit in EW when he swore to his wife that he'd change the times, whereas Heero is so fed up with killing, he just wants the war to be over. The most important part here was that Heero did not force his convictions on Wu Fei nor did he dare say he was wrong. He only asked him to reflect.
Huge difference from other anime in which it's usually "I'm right and you're wrong because my fist says so."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferhb View Post
Jesus, that would make him related to Treize... please, don't do that, people.
Which in turn would make him related to Mariemaia, too. I think he'd be her second-grade uncle? Hah, "shot" by her uncle. Seeing as how it was Heero's fault Mariemaia was fathered in the first place and how messed up the Kushrenada family is in FT, I'd say it would fit perfectly. xD
IkuzeMinna is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gundam wing

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.