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Old 2012-08-08, 09:49   Link #21
ronelm2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
In theory it's just analysis, it should be possible... but I'm certainly not a programmer and would hate to write the error checking code required.
Well, I am, and I'm already telling you in advance that most of <<Cardinal>>'s capabilities (not all) are possible in RL. It does require quite a lot of work and preliminary statistical analysis though. (Example: <<Cardinal>> would have gotten ahold of different scenarios and convert it to something like a Quest.xml.)
Code:
<Quest>
<Message>Some random player message.</Message>
<LevelReq>??</LevelReq>
<Reward>Random_Item_Probably</Reward>
<NPC>SomeNPCID</NPC>
<OnCompleted>Insert Generic Script to activate some other Quest here... maybe</OnCompleted>
<!-- other important things like Location etc will go here... or NPC, etc. -->
</Quest>
Things get more complicated from there...

For <<Cardinal>> to create conflicting quests, or quests in arrangement, or even WORLD-SHATTERING events... say... the end of <<Old ALO World>>...

Code:
<Campaign>
<ID>???</ID>
<Name>Excalibur Quest</Name>
<AntiID>???<!-- ID of the conflicting campaign --></AntiID>
<Quests>
<Main index="1">MainQuest1's QuestID</Main>
<Main index="1a">Frael's QuestID</Main>
... and so on...
</Quest>
<OnCompleted></OnCompleted>
<OnFail></OnFail>
</Campaign>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
OTOH, when Cardinal was mentioned in Calibur, Kirito and Klein point out that it came out with some rather broken repeatable quests. So it's certainly not perfect. Then again, how good does your code engine have to be to produce a "<cough> <cough>, I'm sick and need ten wolf pelts to get better", "Oh my, I'm feeling much better now, unfortunately I won't be able to work today either, could you collect ten boar pelts for me?", "Thanks so kindly adventurer, I wanted to take my wife out for a date in big city X today, could you collect twenty five rabbit pelts for me? I'll give you this wonderful piece of pocket lint and a healing potion in exchange".
Do the above codes that generates scripts like above and you have your own mini <<Cardinal>>. NPCs generate <<needs>> which generate <<quests>>. Linguistic analysis of stories and generate a preliminary outline for it, then generate a campaign based on these circumstances.

If multiple NPCs generate similar <<needs>> or has <<conflict>> with <<another group of NPCs>>, quests are generated by almost the same method.

As for player-made stats, it could be based on <<player's emotions>> which <<Cardinal>> had been monitoring since. Then "generate" words based on these emotions: <<Dark>>, <<Guilty>>, <<Wonder>>, <<Frabjous>>...

Generate words based on <<NPCs>> and their ideals. <<Elven>>, <<Martian>>, <<Earthly>>, <<Elusive>>, <<Tanquility>>.


Identify adjectives: <<Dark>>, <<Guilty>>, <<Frabjous>>, <<Elusive>>, <<Light>>.
Generate nouns from adjectives or verbs: <<Darkness>>, <<Guilt>>, <<Frabjousity>>, <<Elucidator>>, <<Lighter>>, <<Repulsor>>, <<Ignitor>>
Generate prepositions from nouns, adjectives, etc. <<of Guilt>>, <<of Light>>, <<of Darkness>>, <<of Revelation>>
... ah you get the point.

... and of course, relate these words to the characteristics of the sword created.

Last edited by ronelm2000; 2012-08-08 at 11:06.
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Old 2012-08-08, 10:19   Link #22
Clarste
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You do realize it's creating new art assets and voiced dialog on its own, right? I'm sure Blizzard would pay you a billion dollars to give them a system like that right now.
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Old 2012-08-08, 10:38   Link #23
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You do realize it's creating new art assets and voiced dialog on its own, right? I'm sure Blizzard would pay you a billion dollars to give them a system like that right now.
Cardinal reminds me of the random dungeon generators in Diablo! Albeit a fair bit more advanced.. I'm quited interested in Google's advanced voice recognition tools that are being worked on..

Also, I totally agree with the comment above, at least.. until it creates a massive gigantic random quest that none of the GMs know about that fundamentally changes the geography and has the potential to destroy all the hopes people have spent years decorating..

..Like Cardinal did in Caliber (Fail Side).
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Old 2012-08-08, 10:41   Link #24
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Cardinal. Most notable in Calibur SS where it researches Norse mythology on its own and writes a quest that will end the world if failed.

In general though, it's always been their excuse for why the game is so free of bugs despite never being tested past floor 9. And how there can be so many quests, since the game is ridiculously huge.
What I meant was which volume/chapter?

1. Firstly, I read LNs fast (less Mahouka)
2. Secondly, I won't want to find the trouble to re-read the series
3. Thirdly, I'm closed to MEs
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Old 2012-08-08, 10:46   Link #25
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
What I meant was which volume/chapter?

1. Firstly, I read LNs fast (less Mahouka)
2. Secondly, I won't want to find the trouble to re-read the series
3. Thirdly, I'm closed to MEs
Calibur SS. It's in volume 8, the second story.
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Old 2012-08-08, 11:00   Link #26
ronelm2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You do realize it's creating new art assets and voiced dialog on its own, right? I'm sure Blizzard would pay you a billion dollars to give them a system like that right now.
(1) New art assets are created by defining preliminary design patterns (mostly from the original art assets), and creating jigsaw puzzles for <<Cardinal>> to work on.

(2) Voiced assets are created something similar to <<Vocaloid 3 Technology>>. The 10,000 people in SAO serve as a pattern to get voice styles / templates too, since <<Cardinal>> can (presumably) collect voice information somehow. (Do you know that when you think of singing, you're actually thinking also what pitch are you thinking of? So, it might be the same for <<nerve signals to the voice chords>>) I wonder how will they get the template voice template to work on? <<Kayaba's voice and pronounciation>>?

(3) I'd love for Blizzard to hire me... after I get my college degree in Computer Science.
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Old 2012-08-08, 14:35   Link #27
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
In theory it's just analysis, it should be possible... but I'm certainly not a programmer and would hate to write the error checking code required.

OTOH, when Cardinal was mentioned in Calibur, Kirito and Klein point out that it came out with some rather broken repeatable quests. So it's certainly not perfect. Then again, how good does your code engine have to be to produce a "<cough> <cough>, I'm sick and need ten wolf pelts to get better", "Oh my, I'm feeling much better now, unfortunately I won't be able to work today either, could you collect ten boar pelts for me?", "Thanks so kindly adventurer, I wanted to take my wife out for a date in big city X today, could you collect twenty five rabbit pelts for me? I'll give you this wonderful piece of pocket lint and a healing potion in exchange".
Following a template like that? Easy. Isn't it done in Skyrim?

Reading the internet and understanding it well enough to make a quest closely following the story yet fitting in your world (as opposed to just picking out the names and using it in the aforementioned templates)? I don't think it's possible yet, but people are certainly working on it.
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Old 2012-08-08, 14:54   Link #28
styr
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Based on what we saw in First Day, quests that are "kill X mob until Y rare quest item spawns" are one type of quest that is available. I imagine SAO also has kill quest, collection quest, escort quest, fetch quest, timed quests, etc. Although we aren't explicitly shown, I believe SAO involves lots of grinding and that would probably carry over to quest design. Kirito had to kill over 150 mobs for the rare quest item to spawn which gave his first sword upgrade. That's an awful drop rate...

If the quests already use heavy grinding on floor 1 imagine how bad it was in the later floors? "Kill X quest monster 300+ times until Y rare quest item drops." Ugh.

There's also a ME that shows Kirito grinding for materials to properly enchant his sword.
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Old 2012-08-09, 07:26   Link #29
n120cky
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I don't know if okay to post it here but, I think this the best thread for it:
Would you think nervGear technology and a virtual world would be a great concept of future jail system?

1. There is no way the inmate will have chance to escape.
2. Guards can easily observe them.
3. They can have chance to rehabilitate in the virtual community.
4. The visitor can meet them in virtual world.
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Old 2012-08-09, 07:35   Link #30
ronelm2000
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Yes. No other point needed.

But then again, humans adapt. They'll soon start figuring out ways to cirvumvent the system and/or make people log out of that system. If the jail starts implementing a system like SAO where <<taking off the NervGear = death>>, imagine the abuse it would bring to people who actually are innocent but got sent to jail for some reason?

On the positive note, FLA would be an awesome technology to make people wander around 100 years in a week... (for the most dangerous criminals only of course... or by request) or even a few days, then send in a psychological exam. :3 The problem then would be the families who haven't learned to forgive themselves.... -_-
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Old 2012-08-09, 07:47   Link #31
n120cky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
On the positive note, FLA would be an awesome technology to make people wander around 100 years in a week... (for the most dangerous criminals only of course... or by request) or even a few days, then send in a psychological exam. :3 The problem then would be the families who haven't learned to forgive themselves.... -_-
This technology is also good for scientist.
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Old 2012-08-09, 08:28   Link #32
ronelm2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n120cky View Post
This technology is also good for scientist.
:O Hmm... 1 year to think of the idea, than 1 day to test it. Is that it? :O

(Although FLA cannot really simulate REAL physics.)
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Old 2012-08-09, 09:38   Link #33
SagaraSouske
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One loop hole based on the tech behind SAO:

Sleep PK should not be possible. All players' actions are directed via their neural pulses from their brain. Another player using a sleeping player's hand should not be able to make anything happen in game as there will be no neural pulses coming from the sleeper player to make the action occur. Another words, even if the duel request prompt appears, there is no way for someone to use the sleeping player's hand to click on the OK menu button since the action of clicking OK should only come from the sleeping player's brain.
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Old 2012-08-09, 10:29   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
One loop hole based on the tech behind SAO:

Sleep PK should not be possible. All players' actions are directed via their neural pulses from their brain. Another player using a sleeping player's hand should not be able to make anything happen in game as there will be no neural pulses coming from the sleeper player to make the action occur. Another words, even if the duel request prompt appears, there is no way for someone to use the sleeping player's hand to click on the OK menu button since the action of clicking OK should only come from the sleeping player's brain.
It's pretty clear that it's not programmed that way. It's vastly simpler to program the menus along the lines of "does player avatar intersect the menu" using simple collision detection, than it is to program the menus to first check to see if a player is the one moving the arm to intersect the menu, or if someone else is moving their arm for them.

In the course of a normal game, the difference should not be a major problem, and would probably be patched if it managed to become one. Under the circumstances, it's a moderately important problem, and they don't have anyone issuing fixes for that sort of oversight.
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Old 2012-08-09, 10:55   Link #35
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How does one bring up the menu?
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Old 2012-08-09, 11:03   Link #36
Vocah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
How does one bring up the menu?
Klein stepped back a bit, put his right index finger and thumb together, and pulled downwards. This was the action that opened the «main menu window». Immediately afterwards, there was a ringing sound and a shining purple rectangle appeared.
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Old 2012-08-09, 11:08   Link #37
Adigard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
One loop hole based on the tech behind SAO:

Sleep PK should not be possible. All players' actions are directed via their neural pulses from their brain. Another player using a sleeping player's hand should not be able to make anything happen in game as there will be no neural pulses coming from the sleeper player to make the action occur. Another words, even if the duel request prompt appears, there is no way for someone to use the sleeping player's hand to click on the OK menu button since the action of clicking OK should only come from the sleeping player's brain.
I don't recall anything in the LN that mentioned this (prior to UW at least, and even that's fuzzy).

Certainly in SAO I'd consider player actions to be directed from their mind to the nerves which SAO intercepts... we know player's don't start running IRL when they start running in SAO.

But there's nothing to suggest SAO is actually 'reading' player's minds, when it'd be much easier to assume the NERV gear is simply intercepting their muscle movements. Remember, it's a game. If the player's have to learn an entirely new way to control the game... it's not going to be very succesful, and since it was designed to be fully immersive I'd assume physical movements affecting the in-game menu's to be the most likely.

Remember, player's don't think to themselves "skill X, go!", nor do they shout "Straight slash, go!", they move their arm/hand into the proper position, pause for the system assist, then begin the skill with the system assisting their movements.

Even putting that aside, it took SOOOO long for the sleep-PK issue to be found / exploited that I'd simply assume it was never discovered or thought of during the testing process.

From what we know of Kayaba from the novels (although I do not like the way his character is used in the murder SS) I get the feeling he wouldn't really care enough to change it, and the <<Cardinal>> system likely would not consider it a bug nor exploit to 'fix'
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Old 2012-08-09, 12:39   Link #38
Jinx999
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It's entirely possible that Kayaba would consider the ability to sleep PK someone in town a feature, not a bug. Inn rooms, where you can't be disturbed, cost money. To get money, you have to go fight monsters or get people to give you money.

In other words, you can't be completely safe by just staying in the initial safe zone. You either have to go fight monsters for the money you need to sleep securely, or risk sleeping on the street.
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Old 2012-08-09, 12:42   Link #39
Anh_Minh
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There are risk-free ways to get money. They're tedious, is all.
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Old 2012-08-09, 12:52   Link #40
styr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
There are risk-free ways to get money. They're tedious, is all.
Like that guy in the starting city who was wary of telling Asuna/Kirito about the '5 col' piece of fruit that drops every few hours...


Also, after rewatching episode 2, during Kibaou's entrance scene at the amphitheater meeting.. I wonder if he is showing off the acrobatics skill when he jumped down in such a flashy manner?
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