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Old 2012-08-11, 12:50   Link #4761
Sommer
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Originally Posted by DuoRanger View Post
Because Wu-Fei is Chaotic Neutral!

and Zecks is a Right Hand Extremist who felt betrayed by his family ideals and he can'ty see peace in his eyes, and Relena didn't saw the other side of the war, she sees that as a noble, but not as a Soldier

And then There's Treize, he saw that by both sides as a noble and a true Soldier, and then he decided to show to everyone what he saw, the true side of the war, that there's no peace if there's no war.
And that is my fucking problem with them, the feel the NEED to show people the horrors of war like if those people havent suffer enough. They dont want stop war, they want broke people spirits and make them so afraid of war so they could be more easy to manipulate them. Making people sad and afraid is not honorable its terrible a "true soldier" fight for the people not for fulfill they own crappy idealism and ego.

@ IkuzeMinna

Agree, Yaoi fangirls views in homosexuality can be problematic ,but I have see a lot of them that are sane and respectful too.
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Old 2012-08-11, 16:19   Link #4762
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Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
And that is my fucking problem with them, the feel the NEED to show people the horrors of war like if those people havent suffer enough. They dont want stop war, they want broke people spirits and make them so afraid of war so they could be more easy to manipulate them. Making people sad and afraid is not honorable its terrible a "true soldier" fight for the people not for fulfill they own crappy idealism and ego.

@ IkuzeMinna

Agree, Yaoi fangirls views in homosexuality can be problematic ,but I have see a lot of them that are sane and respectful too.
I can't fault the shippers.

I have my own ships that go outside of canon (ReiXUsa for the Sailor Moon Anime being the big one) and most people do try very hard to keep it respectful partly because they love the pairings so dearly.

So while I don't ship Heero/Duo I don't wish ill on those who do. I will say Relena haters could use a bit more subtly though haha.
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Old 2012-08-11, 16:27   Link #4763
IkuzeMinna
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Guys, please watch the profanity.

Anyway, I don't think those were Zechs' and Treize's intentions. As far as Zechs is concerned, he didn't need to rally people into battle. The White Fang had already formed and was more than willing to fight Earth, even before he joined them. All he did was crank it up to eleven so that those silly people would realize their stupidity.
That is why he declared war on Earth just when Relena had managed to change Romefeller's policies (which first made me facepalm so hard). Because Zechs knew there were people out there who wanted blood for all the oppression and humiliation the colonies had to go through at the hands of Earth, he knew Relena's rule wouldn't go smoothly. You know, since pacifism isn't cut out to deal with war-hungry folks. Especially when they have a huge space cannon at their disposal. So he played the part of the crazy leader to give people a war so miserable, they'd never want to see it again.

As for Treize, he did Relena a huge favor. What was Relena supposed to do in the situation she was in? She had to defend Earth against the crazy colonists but Relena would never wage a war and most definitely not against her own brother. Cue Treize showing up and taking over for her, giving her a way out of that mess and preserving the poor girl's innocence. After all, who would want to have the blood of his own kin on his hands?
So he scrapped together every single soldier on Earth and sent them to fight the loathsome MDs, to make the people see if they really wanted to have heartless machines fight a war for them and especially what might happen if those machines got out of hand. Remember, he was never fond of the MDs in the first place; that was other people's doing and from the way it looked like in the series, the soldiers were more than happy to use them. Hence why he had to change that.
On a side note, I find him to be somewhat selfish, what with taking the noble way out by dying a brave soldier in battle and being remembered as a great leader as opposed to Milliardo, who sure got the short end of the stick as far as reputation goes. Or at least should have if FT is any indication...

It's also funny that you're opposed to the notion of someone feeling "the NEED to show people the horrors of war like if those people haven't suffered enough," because essentially, that's what Wu Fei is doing in EW. Unlike with Treize and Zechs, who didn't need to instigate a war because it was already in full process and only took responsibility, Wu Fei was willing to let Mariemaia mess up peace so that the people in the Earth Sphere would stand up and fight for it themselves. Which is why he was so adamant about not letting Heero get to Earth, so he could do it for them. The whole message of the movie (and series) was "everyone has to want peace for it to happen," and if you remember, Wu Fei was yelling at Heero that although they went through that horrible war, humanity didn't change one bit. They got peace handed to them and thought that by throwing away weapons and confining soldiers, everything would be peachy.
The problem with that idea is that it only takes one greedy person with a relatively small army to mess it all up. And we all know there's bound to be one. Cue Mariemaia. If people are reluctant to fight in such a situation, all the sacrifice to attain that peace and freedom in the first place goes to waste. And Wu Fei obviously has a problem with that if he goes "I'm acting for the people who were used as weapons!", hence why he rebukes Relena Peacecraft's ideals.
He himself used to be a stuck-up scholar who didn't do anything when a war was going on around him and only joined the fray when his wife was out there, risking her neck for him and their colony. In the end, his own reluctance to fight (oh look, doesn't that sound familiar) was what caused him to lose her.

Heero tells him that that way of thinking would lead to the world's miserable history repeating itself but Wu Fei doesn't appear fazed by his words, so I'm assuming he's willing to make that sacrifice if it will eventually change the people. But when Heero starts talking about the little girl he accidentally killed, it gets Wu Fei thinking about the way he lost his own colony; innocent people were killed, needlessly at that. So what, would everyone have to go through that to realize he needed to stand up for peace? Would that be worth it?
In the end, everything turned out well with the people understanding the message Relena, the Gundam pilots, Zechs and Noin and later Dorothy were trying to convey. One might even say it's a little corny if a bunch of people, no matter how numerous, can drive back soldiers sitting in Mobile Suits armed to the teeth. But eh, GW always had happy endings.

Though seriously, there's so much hidden in Wu Fei's dialogue with Heero that I'm not sure if I want to congratulate or punch the writers for it. I know I didn't even cover all aspects of it. But their fight really makes EW for me. No other anime I have watched manages to pull of philosophizing during battles as well as GW does. GW ftw! xD
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Old 2012-08-11, 17:22   Link #4764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post

Anyway, I don't think those were Zechs' and Treize's intentions. As far as Zechs is concerned, he didn't need to rally people into battle. The White Fang had already formed and was more than willing to fight Earth, even before he joined them. All he did was crank it up to eleven so that those silly people would realize their stupidity.
So that does give him the right to blow a hole in the earth right? I dont give two fucks if it was a inhabited zone, the ecological impact( he DOES kill animals) should be huge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Because Zechs knew there were people out there who wanted blood for all the oppression and humiliation the colonies had to go through at the hands of Earth, he knew Relena's rule wouldn't go smoothly.
And what give him the right to call himself their representant? He is a earthling,a noble , a ex OZ member, he is the oposite of a oppresed colonist.
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
You know, since pacifism isn't cut out to deal with war-hungry folks. Especially when they have a huge space cannon at their disposal. So he played the part of the crazy leader to give people a war so miserable, they'd never want to see it again.
Again , he want make people upset and AFRAID of war, that not how pacifism work. His plan is one of the most half-assed and stupid thing I ever heard in T.V.
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
As for Treize, he did Relena a huge favor. What was Relena supposed to do in the situation she was in? She had to defend Earth against the crazy colonists but Relena would never wage a war and most definitely not against her own brother.
That could be a good chance in what she could have broke her privilege bubble and finally understand what other people have been doing meanwhile she was in her throne.

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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Cue Treize showing up and taking over for her, giving her a way out of that mess and preserving the poor girl's innocence.
Why she should have a special treatement? Most of the other characters are orphans with no childhood.
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
On a side note, I find him to be somewhat selfish, what with taking the noble way out by dying a brave soldier in battle and being remembered as a great leader as opposed to Milliardo, who sure got the short end of the stick as far as reputation goes. Or at least should have if FT is any indication...
Noble ? Srlsy he uses people as pawns, he is a great lider and a good soldier but noble? LOL.


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GW ftw! xD
Until the White fang part D:< That almost killed GW for me, EW is awesome trought.
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Old 2012-08-11, 18:43   Link #4765
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Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
So that does give him the right to blow a hole in the earth right? I dont give two fucks if it was a inhabited zone, the ecological impact( he DOES kill animals) should be huge.

He was sending the Earth a message.

And what give him the right to call himself their representant? He is a earthling,a noble , a ex OZ member, he is the oposite of a oppresed colonist.

Nothing gave him that right. But the fact that the White Fang sought him out and ultimately rallied behind him is proof he was a fitting candidate to lead the movement, even if he had ulterior motives.

Again , he want make people upset and AFRAID of war, that not how pacifism work. His plan is one of the most half-assed and stupid thing I ever heard in T.V.

You have the right to your opinion but I've always thought his/Treize's "gambit roulette" was brilliant.

That could be a good chance in what she could have broke her privilege bubble and finally understand what other people have been doing meanwhile she was in her throne.

That would have been too dramatic of a character transofrmation. Relena had already undergone a lot of development as a character (unquestionably the most of anybody in the series) up till that point in the series. Treize was the perfect person to see the Earth through their battle against the White Fang.

Why she should have a special treatement? Most of the other characters are orphans with no childhood.

What are you talking about? She went from being an unaware spoilt girl to a a champion of peace. What, was she suddenly supposed to become Joan of Arc?

Noble ? Srlsy he uses people as pawns, he is a great lider and a good soldier but noble? LOL.

Treize went down in history perceived as being noble by many. I don't think that's how Ikuze was actually describing him.
On another note, I couldn't agree more with your last point Ikuze. Great scene.
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Old 2012-08-12, 09:39   Link #4766
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Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
So that does give him the right to blow a hole in the earth right?
Uh, no. I'm not saying that Zechs' actions are justified. I was only offering an explanation as to his motives. I can understand what he did but like you, I don't agree with it.

Quote:
And what give him the right to call himself their representant? He is a earthling, a noble, a ex OZ member, he is the opposite of a oppressed colonist.
Most definitely. Heero himself calls him out on it, which is why Zechs offers him the position instead. But neither Heero nor any of the other Gundam pilots were willing to help out White Fang. And since the WF wanted a Gundam to use as their symbol by all means, they asked Zechs.
I guess the reason they made him their leader was that he was a dang good soldier and widely known for having opposed OZ and subsequently Romefeller. It doesn't change the hypocritical undertones though.

On a funnier note, Milliardo Peacecraft is a prince. For some odd reason, whatever organization you join in GW will give you the position according to your birthright; Zechs Marquise was first a baron, then a count and thus a subordinate of Treize Kushrenada, who was a duke. As Milliardo though, he went straight to top position. Same with Relena. Princess Relena Peacecraft was both the leader of Cinq as well as Romefeller. Once she went back to being a Darlian, she became "only" VFM.

Quote:
Again, he want make people upset and AFRAID of war, that not how pacifism work. His plan is one of the most half-assed and stupid thing I ever heard in T.V.
Zechs is known for stupid ideas. He did the same thing with Relena at Antarctica. Sure, slay her would-be boyfriend in front of her to show her how foul war is. That will surely make her a pacifist.
Seriously, you see him wearing two helmets at once in space. Of course the blood flow to his brain was cut off!

Still, during the final battle that approach worked. Not only did they destroy most of the weapons on Earth and in space, the colonies finally made up their minds and declared that they didn't want a war anymore. Yes, many people died for that but they weren't exactly "innocent"; they were all soldiers who wanted to fight but changed their minds through that battle. Sort of. Until EW.

I'm not saying Zechs shouldn't be decked for nearly destroying Earth. But I have to cut the guy some slack as he was willing to pay for it with his life, like Treize. It's just his luck that no pilot ever dies from an explosion in GW. xD

Quote:
That could be a good chance in what she could have broke her privilege bubble and finally understand what other people have been doing meanwhile she was in her throne.
I'm under the impression you think Relena has no idea what war means. Perhaps that is true as she has never participated in any battle but that doesn't mean she didn't get to suffer due to it. Her father and biological parents were assassinated and her country destroyed, twice. She noticed how down in the dumps Heero was when he showed up in Cinq and was hard-pressed not to let the vast number of people down who were placing all their hopes in her, all the while willing to take the brunt of any retaliation Romefeller may plan.

She wasn't just sitting around, looking pretty. Relena was willingly placing her life in danger by appealing to Romefeller to stop fighting. I won't argue that it's crazy to talk of pacifism in the middle of an all-out war but those were her beliefs and that was her decision and I admire her guts for going through with it.
Sure, she had a lot of help but that's the point of the show. You can't change the world by yourself. But if people stick together even something as idealistic as pacifism can work.

The problem with White Fang was that Relena would have most likely tried to talk some sense into them because, as I said, she wouldn't fight. Not when she finally got Romefeller to stop fighting.
Seeing as White Fang had Libra, they could have threatened Earth and made any ridiculous demand they wanted. If she didn't budge, her words likely wouldn't have been enough to prevent a few holes being blown into the planet. That would make people lose faith in pacifism, they would all reach for weapons and the whole war would start anew.
Now, suppose Relena did call for her army to fight White Fang. Not only would that go against her entire nature, she would spit in the face of everyone who had put their hopes and trust in her, the whole pacifism thing would be utterly pointless to have been brought up, the idealistic messages of the series would go to heck and seeing as Relena had never participated in a battle and had absolutely zero experience in warfare, the battle itself would've ended pretty badly with her at the helm.
Long story short, that would've been the worst writing ever.

Quote:
Why she should have a special treatment? Most of the other characters are orphans with no childhood.
She's a different character. Relena was supposed to represent all that's good on Earth. She was supposed to remain innocent hence why everyone sort of tacitly agreed to do everything to keep it that way. And it's not like she hasn't been through hardships herself.
I understand you don't like her character. But that's the way she was written.

Quote:
Noble ? Srlsy he uses people as pawns, he is a great leader and a good soldier but noble? LOL.
Well, he's a duke so he's noble by default. :P Kidding aside, I wasn't really referring to him being noble rather than his death being perceived as noble. You know, since he officially went down fighting to protect Earth from crazy colonists.

That aside, I do think his decision to lead his troops into battle and risk his own life on the front lines makes him noble in that case, unlike other politicians who just declare war and then sit in a safe bunker while their soldiers are on the battlefield getting killed.
That's not to say that I don't find him to be a huge egotistical jerk for assassinating fine people like Darlian or Noventa. What did they ever do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elo the Blue View Post
On another note, I couldn't agree more with your last point Ikuze. Great scene.
An honor to hear that from you.

Last edited by IkuzeMinna; 2012-08-12 at 10:03.
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Old 2012-08-12, 10:11   Link #4767
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What I really love about Wing is that no part of the story seems to ever come from nowhere. Everything was planned ahead of time and the story feels complete and self-contained, like a play.

I don't get that feeling from FT, where it seems like half of it is irrelevant to the plot and what little plot there is has yet to make any sense. Nothing has been thought out or preplanned because the story isn't moving with purpose or direction. I don't even see an overarching theme or message here. It's just meandering along trying to come up with new excuses for why it still exists at all.
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Old 2012-08-12, 11:20   Link #4768
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What I really love about Wing is that no part of the story seems to ever come from nowhere. Everything was planned ahead of time and the story feels complete and self-contained, like a play.

I don't get that feeling from FT, where it seems like half of it is irrelevant to the plot and what little plot there is has yet to make any sense. Nothing has been thought out or preplanned because the story isn't moving with purpose or direction. I don't even see an overarching theme or message here. It's just meandering along trying to come up with new excuses for why it still exists at all.
Also the characters, no one of them was a random addition, eveyone has a role.
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Old 2012-08-12, 11:39   Link #4769
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May I ask ,in EW movie ,what is "project Terra" that Relena didn't have the time to take care of it so Zeches (as a dead man) decided to do it?
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Old 2012-08-12, 12:53   Link #4770
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Originally Posted by Black Lion View Post
What I really love about Wing is that no part of the story seems to ever come from nowhere. Everything was planned ahead of time and the story feels complete and self-contained, like a play.

I don't get that feeling from FT, where it seems like half of it is irrelevant to the plot and what little plot there is has yet to make any sense. Nothing has been thought out or preplanned because the story isn't moving with purpose or direction. I don't even see an overarching theme or message here. It's just meandering along trying to come up with new excuses for why it still exists at all.
I agree to an extent, but I'd d say the flashbacks (minus parts of the sappy romantic story) and Preventer plot-points have been rather good.

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May I ask ,in EW movie ,what is "project Terra" that Relena didn't have the time to take care of it so Zeches (as a dead man) decided to do it?
Noin actually said "terraforming project" and she was referring to the terrformation of Mars.
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Old 2012-08-12, 13:40   Link #4771
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Noin actually said "terraforming project" and she was referring to the terrformation of Mars.
I get it! But at which point did Relena decide it? & for what purpose?
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Old 2012-08-12, 14:54   Link #4772
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I get it! But at which point did Relena decide it? & for what purpose?
So that she could kill everyone there with a nanovirus
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Old 2012-08-12, 16:30   Link #4773
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What's this talk about Millardo? Don't forget that he was being shown that his way was the right way because of the Epyon System. Just like how that same system drove Heero mad for a awhile. Or how the Zero system drove Quatre, Duo, Millardo, and Heero mad at one point. It's hard to rational for and against what he did because you have to factor in the Epyon system.
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Old 2012-08-12, 16:54   Link #4774
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What's this talk about Millardo? Don't forget that he was being shown that his way was the right way because of the Epyon System. Just like how that same system drove Heero mad for a awhile. Or how the Zero system drove Quatre, Duo, Millardo, and Heero mad at one point. It's hard to rational for and against what he did because you have to factor in the Epyon system.
The heck with all the Zechs apologists? He wasnt using the Zero System when he was in the Libra, beside Quatre does showed remorse for all his craziness.
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Old 2012-08-12, 17:17   Link #4775
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It's easy to make excuses for someone you find cool
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Old 2012-08-12, 18:50   Link #4776
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The heck with all the Zechs apologists? He wasnt using the Zero System when he was in the Libra, beside Quatre does showed remorse for all his craziness.
He already was using the Epyon System, it's what pushed him to accept the whole White Fang thing. Had they approached him before he was touched by the Epyon and Zero systems it's highly doubtful Zechs would have accepted the invitation if it was still offered.


Quatre was out of the Zero system for sometime, he had time to think about it. Zechs was more than content using the Epyon System without any doubts, he even had Dorothy use it so she could use the Mobile Dolls. To a lesser extent of course, but more than enough to embarrass the Gundam Pilots until Heero had the Zero System put into the Sandrock Kai.
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Old 2012-08-12, 19:02   Link #4777
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The Epyon System requires the Gundam's helmet to be worn for it to be active. If he's not wearing the helmet, then Zechs is not actually using the Epyon System.
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Old 2012-08-12, 19:45   Link #4778
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The Epyon System requires the Gundam's helmet to be worn for it to be active. If he's not wearing the helmet, then Zechs is not actually using the Epyon System.
Given the animation errors present in the last episode of Wing and the fact that Zech's is fighting Heero on even footing while Heero is using the Zero System it stands to reason that Zech's is in fact using it regardless of him not having the helmet in the last episode.
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Old 2012-08-12, 20:17   Link #4779
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Yeah, Gundam Wing wasn't terribly big on consistency... though that said, Zechs has loads more combat experience than Heero, plus he was in a Gundam that was way better at melee combat than the Wing Zero was.
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Old 2012-08-12, 20:40   Link #4780
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Indeed he was. The issue with that is though that the fight is so similar to Wing Zero Vs Epyon from when they were switched, and how evenly they fought when in Tallgeese Vs Wing that the idea that Zech's suddenly is able to face Heero even in Epyon at an even level with out the System seems incredibly unlikely.

Not impossible, but certainly it goes against almost everything we see in the show. Also we need to account for the fact that while weirdly everything since Wing always paints Heero as being a ranged fighter he does go melee several times and in fact seems to prefer multiple times and fuctions very well in Merc.
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