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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 36 42.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 41.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 9 10.59%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 2.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.35%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.18%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-12, 23:08   Link #21
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Houtarou solves problems. Not problems like "what is beauty," as that falls under your classical conundrums of philosophy. Houtarou solves practical problems. Like how to stop the club from being crushed under a surplus of unsold anthologies? Apparently, Houtarou has taken a lesson in the Haruhi Suzumiya School of Negotiation: When in doubt . . . use blackmail. When blackmail don't work. Use more blackmail. And just in case blackmail isn't flashy enough . . . solve it Mythbusters-style and resort to high explosives.

Mind you, we already knew that he has it in him. After all, the President of the Wall Newspaper club had to pay for Oreki's silence about his two-packs-per-day smoking habit with the archived Hyouka anthologies. So, we see that, with a little bit of proper motivation, Houtarou can be every bit as manipulative as Irisu.

Quite unlike Chitanda, whom Irisu tells to stop using her advice . . . since Chitanda doesn't get intrigue, finesse, or double-talk. When confronted with a problem, she merely screams "SEMPER FI!" "I'm curious!" and charges in with guns blazing. Chitanda gives Irisu a bit of a shock when she informs her that she already figured that out.

The whole arc is one of dashed expectations and titanic inferiority complexes. We see Satoshi looking absolutely crushed when he overhears Houtarou not only uncover the identity of the thief, but then goes and co-opts the thief's plans to service the Classics Club's needs (he gets back at Houtarou in the end, though.) Joining him in the misery club is Mayaka, who has it reiterated that, compared to some of her fellow Manga Club mates, her talents are somewhere in the sub-basement of the sub-basement (by her nemesis, who was similarly crushed by the writer of A Corpse By Evening,) and "Juumoji" himself, thoroughly enraged at his master artist friend for crushing his expectations utterly and completely.

So Satoshi and Mayaka get much character development in this arc. The closeness of their friendship is, likewise, shown in surprising detail. Satoshi, by himself, gets the most character development up to this point. He starts out the series as Houtarou's excessively fabulous pal, who then evolves into the archetypal Shakespearean Fool, who is now seemingly headed toward the other famous Shakespearean archetype, the tragic character. Chitanda gets some character exploration, insofar as we see that it's just plain tiring for her to think in double-speak.

The one character who actually doesn't develop all that much is Houtarou. We already know that, once he puts his mind to something, he just has to do the magic bang pull, and the solution falls out (he seems to have had the whole mystery solved one or two episodes ago. In this episode, we just get to find out why he didn't want to involve Chitanda.) We know that, when something gets in the way of him giving all glory to the HYPNOTOAD so he can get back to his accustomed resting state, he's not above doing whatever it takes to make that something (up to, and including, the HYPNOTOAD herself, per the "Silk Spider Society" fabrication all the way back at the start of the series,) stop being an obstacle.

So, I rate this episode 9 blown up manuscripts out of 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedvix View Post
I have been getting a vibe that Oreki's older sister (Tomoe Oreki) is actually Anjou Haruna. While we never get a clear specifications of her age, I can't help to think that she is somehow related to the "dream" team. I would imagine that Anjou Haruna could be some form of a "pen name" that a lot of writers like to use.

Here are some hints:
- Anjou Haruna was said to have "transferred off". Oreki's sister is currently living abroad in India.
Tomoe is much too old to be Haruna. Tomoe had time to go on her world tour because she's already graduated from high school. We are made to understand that Haruna, and the rest of the A Corpse By Evening team are the same age, and are all now third-years in high school. It was also implied that they would've all been around to do another manga, if the artist hadn't decided to never pick up a pen again (the story itself was already done, so Haruna's transfer wouldn't have had as much impact on the following year's manga.)

It follows that Tomoe cannot possibly be that close to Houtarou in age. If she were, people (in-show) would've undoubtedly made the connection between the elder Oreki and her brother by now.

Quote:
- There was a scene of Oreki sister reading the school's newspaper (EP16) about to jumonji incident and said "naruhodo" (I see/I understand/I get it)... What does she understand?!?!?
It's possible that Tomoe's deductive skills far surpass those of her baby brother. There has been considerable discussion on this board to suggest that Houtarou's "energy conservation" lifestyle came about as a reaction to being constantly outshined in every way by his sister.

Quote:
- She happens to carry the manga "A corpse by evening" and gives it to Hotarou? and says the weird line afterwards "whether this staves off your boredom or not is up to you". To me it feels like as if she is giving Hotarou a hint to solve the Jumomji accident which is contained in the manga.
Tomoe Oreki is a woman who, apparently, has her fingers in a lot of pies. It seems she knows the connection between one Chitanda Eru and Seitakani, founder of the Classics Club (Chitanda has seen Tomoe somewhere before, but she can't quite put her finger on where.) Maybe she met Haruna Anjou somewhere on her travels, and got part of the story from her. And this sort of thing apparently happens often enough that Houtarou is suspicious that she's getting him mixed up in yet another unfortunate series of events.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-13 at 00:28.
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Old 2012-08-12, 23:56   Link #22
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Fred found great buddies in joeboygo and GalacticPulsar to hate on characters together. Surely an entertaining activity. Meanwhile excuse me while the rest of us will move on.

As for the episode, I can relate with Mayaka and Satoshi a lot. The conclusion to the whole arc somehow felt fairly weak but it works.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:21   Link #23
GalacticPulsar
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The mysteries in Hyouka are entertaining but so pointless. Yes I get that it is anime but lol Tanabe went through all that trouble setting up the Juumoji mystery just so he could pass on a message to the Student Council President which failed in the end. Tanabe could have just man up and talked to Kugayama himself. But no, he didn't have the balls and went with a roundabout way of trying to get Kugayama back into drawing manga. And also it's pretty clear that even had he read the script from Anjou, Kugayama would have had no intentions of getting back into manga so Tanabe was pretty much trying to salvage a lost cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Fred found great buddies in joeboygo and GalacticPulsar to hate on characters together. Surely an entertaining activity. Meanwhile excuse me while the rest of us will move on.

As for the episode, I can relate with Mayaka and Satoshi a lot. The conclusion to the whole arc somehow felt fairly weak but it works.
now now. I actually like all the characters in Hyouka. Sure I have my own interpretations of the characters and even if they may come off as being harsh,the truth is I enjoy watching Oreki and the rest of the Hyouka cast. Satoshi is a great character. I feel for him when he had the whole speech about expectations(for others) are something you have when you finally give up and lose confidence in your own abilities. Some of the most talented people are the ones without much expectations for themselves and they need others to push them to maximize their talents.It's very interesting to see how Satoshi deals with his inferiority complex and how he places his hope on Oreki because of the huge gap between the two's abilities in solving mysteries(a part of Satoshi wants Oreki to fail but Oreki doesn't and in fact goes beyond expectations further widening the gap between the two). Oreki was excellent as usual with his deductions and he gets extra points for using the whole situation to his benefit,selling out all those anthologies which came as a shock to me because that is some aggressive behavior on Oreki's part to make a deal with Tanabe.But this shows that Oreki does care somewhat about the Classics Club. Everything came together very nicely in this arc. Just a really enjoyable arc for me. 9/10
The thing that is kind of unbelievable, though, is how Oreki takes such leaps of logic and draws all these conclusions. Tomoe having better deductive abilities than Oreki? That would be OP. like dragonball z OP.

Last edited by GalacticPulsar; 2012-08-13 at 11:52.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:45   Link #24
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Absolutely stellar end to a terrific arc. I knew Hyouka was capable of capturing the art of high school time wasting and creating atmosphere, but I didn't know it had this kind of genius in it.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:47   Link #25
Ringil
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I think this was the best episode of Hyouka thus far. I liked the parallelism between Mayaka's skill compared to Kouchi's skill and Kouchi's skill compared to Anjou's (the other ones were also pretty well crafted). It really drove home the sense of inferiority prevalent in this arc.

Last edited by Ringil; 2012-08-13 at 00:58.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:55   Link #26
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So, Mayaka and her Genshiken problem end like this? a little disappoint I would say.



10/10 anyway.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:55   Link #27
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so after this the last arc will it just small stories all the way or on to the fifth novel the approximation distance of the two...

(i hope this time houtaro and chitanda had nice development i already had good vibe from the title)
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Old 2012-08-13, 01:01   Link #28
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I didn't think they would tie all those character sub plots together, but they pulled it off with the theme of expectations. Particularly between Satoshi and Mayaka and that scene where she held his jacket. It really underscored their connection. It was terrific arc story arc, lots of character development for the the main cast, although it was perhaps a bit long.
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Old 2012-08-13, 01:37   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I wasn't that surprised. Houtarou practically blackmailed that guy in the first arc so they could just hurry up and get the anthologies. Besides in this case it was more of a trade really. Tanabe got to finish his scheme and the Classics Club got to sell out their anthology, it was win/win really. Still he did go out of his way on this one. Maybe he wanted to lessen the burden on everyone and just get the anthologies sold. Otherwise you'd have Mayaka feeling bad and Chitanda feeling bad probably thinking she didn't do a good job getting the copies sold, etc. Do agree it shows some growth since he'd rather solve their problems even if it means "calling out" the culprit and making a deal.

I think it depends on how you look at that "good work" thing. Did he simply understand that Tanabe was behind the thefts or did he also understand why he did it? "Good work" could simply mean he thought the whole thing was a clever idea to make the festival more exciting not that he understood the message behind it.
But the story implied that, short of being an Oreki, the only way to know who the culprit was was to have read Kudr... the manuscript. Which would imply Kugayama read it, which was the point of the pranks.
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:14   Link #30
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Great conclusion to this arc.

I think the most I got from out of all of this was really enjoying Satoshi and Mayaka's development/insight into their personalities. I felt ridiculously bad for Satoshi. And being an artist myself, Mayaka's (and Kouchi's) feelings about their art and how it poorly compared to others' literally almost made me cry. I know what that feels like all too well, and it hit a lot closer to home than I expected it to. When Hyouka started, I wasn't extremely fond of Satoshi and Mayaka (more so Mayaka, I found her very annoying/pointless at first), but this arc brilliantly showcased how they're both much more complex than that underneath the surface and I like them both much more now (especially Mayaka).

I like how they made it so you could catch some of the cues behind the predetermined scheming during the manuscript combustion scene early on. I was well aware of how awkward Tanabe seemed (his movements, the direction he was facing in, the timing of events, etc). Kudos to KyoAni for that.
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:37   Link #31
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I just realized that KyoAni did this anime, and that they did Clannad and Kanon and Air too lol

Question, who's Anjou?

I liked this episode overall. I don't really get how Tanabe thought all that effort and deception and tricks would get his point across. But i do understand his emotions.

Loved Satoshi in this. I like how both his character and Mayaka's are developing.
The only thing I didn't really understand was Mayaka's though. Can someone explain or clarify her story a bit?
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:46   Link #32
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Very good episode.

Nothing much I need to say that's not already stated already, except that - while the Light Novel itself probably hasn't updated itself that far - I foresee an eventual showdown between Houtarou and his sister. It is inevitable.

Tomoe is even 'covered up' in the anime because she was way too brilliant.

Also, I can see that Houtarou and his sister's current personalities and actions were developed from the difference between their talents. Their past didn't even need to be sad or explosive; just portray them holding in their opinions and feelings for each other's sake; Tomoe travelling all around so she doesn't pressure her brother and Houtarou doesn't want to ponder about a problem because her sister already knows the answer.

And then Satoshi and Mayaka (and even Chitanda) will realize that Houtarou himself feels the exact same feelings as them (to the point he desires a 'Gray' life) and possibly grow closer and more forgiving as a result.

EDIT: Mentioned it before, but the creators for this anime are absolute genius; it actually outshines the Light Novel itself.
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:52   Link #33
GalacticPulsar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But the story implied that, short of being an Oreki, the only way to know who the culprit was was to have read Kudr... the manuscript. Which would imply Kugayama read it, which was the point of the pranks.
And if Kugayama did not read the manuscript, the prank was just a waste of time. Is Tanabe retarded? Again why doesn't Tanabe just grow some balls and ask Kugayama to read the manuscript without going through all that trouble? wow.......

Does Chitanda have any insecurities herself? We know Oreki, Satoshi and Mayaka all do but what about Chitanda? I'm still waiting for some Chitanda character development. Anytime now.......
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:53   Link #34
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I give 9/10 because I think it's a little gloomy and I feel like the "expectation" theme does not totally concluded yet.

Other than that, it sure is a great episode. Like Yushi, the fact that even Houtarou-lazily-browsing-website is relevant sure took me by surprise. I also totally forgot that in A.B.C. Murder, there were this timetable that was relevant to the case.

Once again, I cannot exactly praise him for doing that blackmail, I'll not say it's a bad thing either. At least his excuse this time was more reasonable, I think. But that was certainly a clever way to sold Hyouka and nicely explain why he went so far to keep it a secret from Eru.

Anyone else actually feel like you're sharing the same feeling as the characters in the epilogue? I felt a mixture of happy for the job well done and exhausted. I do not mean in a bad way. This arc is thoroughly entertaining, but I felt like I was on the high tension for so long that I'm glad it's finally over. Really, I want to see them party now because I'm in the mood myself.

Finally, I want to go back to the whole premise of this show again. "The bitter-sweetness of growing up." A lot of characters saw a wall they could not just overcome in this arc. It seems to me like the author try to convey a message about how harsh the world is. Not in a sense that the world is corrupted, but in the sense that it simply is not fair, so deal with it. I can started to see why the original is a general novel as oppose to a Light Novel.

I too want to see "The Approximated Distance of the Two" animated, but I think we'll get short story to wrap up this show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergel02 View Post
Question, who's Anjou?

The only thing I didn't really understand was Mayaka's though. Can someone explain or clarify her story a bit?
Short answers: Anjou is the one who wrote the script for that doujin. She is a friend of both the Manga society president and Kouchi Ayako, the sempai that argued with Mayaka. She transferred out last year in the story.

Mayaka story is that she think a masterpiece is something that born that way. Ayako said she disagree. To prove her point, Mayaka want Ayako to read "A Corpse by Evening" (Mazui translation). Along the way she found "Body Talk" which she think is also good, but still a level below A Corse by Even. She also commented that her own work is way below both. So when Ayako explained that she cannot bring herself to finish A Corpse by Evening, Mayaka understand her frustration. It is also similar to Satoshi's situation as well

That wasn't so short, was it? :P

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-08-13 at 21:19. Reason: Please edit your post and refrain from double posting...
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Old 2012-08-13, 03:42   Link #35
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Absolutely stellar end to a terrific arc. I knew Hyouka was capable of capturing the art of high school time wasting and creating atmosphere, but I didn't know it had this kind of genius in it.
Quoted for truth. This had subtlety both in the characters' feelings and in the way the story was woven...and unwoven.

I have to say, much as I like Houtarou (Nakamura Yuuichi), Eru (Satou Satomi), and Satoshi (Sakaguchi Daisuke), that Mayaka is my favorite character here. Kayano Ai is really a voice actress: both a wonderful voice and a convincing actress. And I am also happy to see Satoshi and Mayaka's ship start heading for port. If that is indeed what I saw.
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Old 2012-08-13, 03:44   Link #36
Skane
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Unhappy

Watching the episode... ironic thoughts started to plague my mind.

"The manuscript's not lost! If he would just draw it out, it would be a greater masterpiece!"

Because it warped into this...

"The novel's are done! If they would just animate the rest of it, it would be a masterpiece as well!"

I speak of course... the FMP!-series. They have the author on dial-direct, they have abundant novel material to animate, but... the wait continues. I wonder if there was any lampshading in the episode. The episode became so much more depressing when I realised the parallel...

Mibble...
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Old 2012-08-13, 04:13   Link #37
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This was a great episode. 10/10

Oreki you never seize to amaze me. Good job.

For whatever reason I get the feeling that Satoshi jealousy of Oreki's abilities is far from done.
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Old 2012-08-13, 04:19   Link #38
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That was certainly a fantastic ending to a pretty epic arc.

The way it tied everything together here, by bringing all the subplots together to resolve the main conflicts of the arc, and to even tie it up with a consistent theme running through all the subplots - It truly was a thing of narrative beauty to behold.

There's not much I can add to what other viewers have already wrote about this on this thread, except to add one key point. And that point is that I think that Irisu and Chitanda's subplot isn't as separate from all of this as what may appear. I think that the general theme of "There's no accounting for pure talent" also applies to Irisu and Chitanda's subplot, and in their cases it applies to talent at persuasion.

But how Irisu and Chitanda's subplot ties into the overarching theme is a little less clear here because Irisu genuinely is good at persuasion. Even so, Irisu is good at it due to hard work and technique - Irisu has to be somewhat manipulative, or at least sly, in order to effectively persuade others. But Chitanda can persuade based simply on her natural personality (and her hypno eyes ). In other words, Chitanda is good at persuasion due to pure talent; due to who she is moreso than the particulars of what she does or says. And, sometimes, with an abundance of talent, the conventional wisdom of how to do things goes out the window.

Irisu is very good at persuading others, but she's not as naturally talented at it as Chitanda is. Irisu recognizes that, and hence she realizes that her persuasion techniques actually holds back someone like Chitanda. It's like telling a great pro sports player that he has to strictly follow a particular system of play when his unleashed creativity at the game is actually more effective than any system could be. Chitanda's talent at persuasion is like that - With her, she should just go straightforward and straight-ahead and follow her heart, while Irisu must make do with hard work and technique.


And so, again, we see how all the subplots in this anime ties into the theme of how there's no accounting for pure talent. But a corollary that follows from that is that it's a real shame when such pure talent is wasted and not put to good use. Tanabe's frustration with the Student Council President is palpable, and who can blame him? The emotional poignancy of it all was very compelling without ever seeming melodramatic.

However, I was a little bit dissatisfied with how Mayaka's subplot was resolved, putting aside the overarching tie-in that I already discussed. Like another viewer or two said on this thread, I would have liked the bullying itself to have been addressed/resolved in some fashion, so it was slightly disappointing to see it not be. Still, Mayaka herself came off very well here, as did the entire main cast.

9/10 for Episode 17 of Hyouka.
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Old 2012-08-13, 05:57   Link #39
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10/10

That part with Ayako and Mayaka was kinda heartbreaking when I watched the streaming yesterday.
Nevertheless the part with Tanabe and Kugayama was something. That was a great way to reveal everything.

I really loved how Oreki was struck when Tanabe said that Kugayama did that manga just for fun and that he hasn't had a passion for it when he is gifted with such skill. Really brings back the point in Irisu's words which were really something to think off for Oreki.

Really great episode.
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Old 2012-08-13, 06:08   Link #40
OceanBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
I speak of course... the FMP!-series. They have the author on dial-direct
Gatoh Shoji actually did the scriptwriting for this episode .

What a great ending to a fantastic arc. Hyouka always has stellar endings to its arcs. The theme of this one is especially nice since it's related to the movie arc.
Poor Satoshi. I hope Mayaka and he can have their shining moments by the end of the show

Edit: Also, it feels like they put a lot of effort into the celebrating at the end .
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