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Old 2012-08-10, 13:10   Link #81
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Example, I buy something expensive from you. Let's say the agreed upon price is 1 mil col. I put 100000 col in my trade window and prompt you to accept and bump your arm 'accidentally' to select yes before you can read clearly the amount I put in. Is that fair? Incidents like this and of other nature would happen all the time if this is the case.
That is the most unnatural arm bump ever.

When in doubt, report it to a GM. It's not gamebreaking because it's seriously really hard to do that. Unless the other person routinely holds their finger directly over the button while making the decision? Grabbing someone's arm and leading it towards the button is hardly an option when they can just shout "stop" or something. And if he can just convince the other party to make a quick decision without looking it over carefully, they congratulations! You're a scam artist. Which as far as I know isn't against any kind of rule other than the social ones.
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:14   Link #82
Vocah
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
What you are saying is that the designer made a separate control system for operating the menus, that someone can accidentally bump into someone operating a menu and cause them to choose different options from what they originally trying to select. Would that fall under 'mostly fair' system? It's better then complete collision control but it still allow too many 'accidents' to happen, intentional or not.

Example, I buy something expensive from you. Let's say the agreed upon price is 1 mil col. I put 100000 col in my trade window and prompt you to accept and bump your arm 'accidentally' to select yes before you can read clearly the amount I put in. Is that fair? Incidents like this and of other nature would happen all the time if this is the case.
I would consider this natural, if someone would be stupid enough to rummage in his menu when there are people near enough to bump into you than it's his own fault.

For your example: Are you sitting on top of him or what? If that's the case it would again be the others fault for being an idiot
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:21   Link #83
SagaraSouske
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I edited my post too slow it seems. Even if there is a social taboo for being scam artist, some will still do it, even if it won't succeed all the time. But the PKer example I typed late in my post is far worse. If that person is PKing already, he would not care about any social stigma associated with actions and he will be focused on the moment you move your hands toward the no button and grab it or bump it such that it touches yes instead. You can shout or whatever but it is already too late.
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:24   Link #84
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
If someone grabs your arm, you can't move it. Yes, it's true that this takes control away from the player, but arguably the game would be much worse if you didn't let that kind of thing happen. Taking control away from the player sometimes is a perfectly natural thing to do. It's no different from being stunned or paralyzed. And with the harassment system, you can easily get them to stop so it's not really a problem. Being able to grab a sleeping player's hand and move it around is only natural.

The only problem is whether or not the menu objects actually exist in the game world's programming.
I agree mostly. Just I don't think the menu system is collision based.
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:33   Link #85
Vocah
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I edited my post too slow it seems. Even if there is a social taboo for being scam artist, some will still do it, even if it won't succeed all the time. But the PKer example I typed late in my post is far worse. If that person is PKing already, he would not care about any social stigma associated with actions and he will be focused on the moment you move your hands toward the no button and grab it or bump it such that it touches yes instead. You can shout or whatever but it is already too late.
Than it's your own damn fault for being stupid to move your hand near the window while someone is near you.

You know, you can read stuff without moving your hand over any buttons, and for the duel initiation and moving someones hand on "Yes" from what I read it seems the one to agree to a duel can decide what kind of duel it will be... even if this would not be the case you can simply move a few steps away from the other before accepting/declining
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:33   Link #86
Clarste
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I agree mostly. Just I don't think the menu system is collision based.
Well, clearly it is collision based because this exploit apparently works. The question is why it works that way. Personally I think the de-syncing issue makes the most sense, and combined with the menu gesture being special explains a lot of the other inconsistencies. Like why this is the only use of this seemingly powerful exploit that they mention in the story.
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Old 2012-08-10, 13:41   Link #87
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Vocah View Post
Than it's your fucking own damn fault for being stupid to move your fucking hand near the fucking window while someone is fucking near you.

You know, you can read stuff without moving your hand over any buttons, and for the duel initiation and moving someones hand on "Yes" from what I read it seems the one to agree to a duel can decide what kind of duel it will be... even if this would not be the case you can simply move a few steps away from the other before accepting
One, if you have not heard about these type of incidents, how likely are you going to be super cautious when a duel request window suddenly pops up? It's your natural tendency to just click no right way when you want to refuse the duel and not back up 5 steps then do it.

Two, you don't know who or where the player is since you cannot see player names. When a duel window pops, you are going to actually first look around and move away from every one you see before clicking no? Most people are not that paranoid unless they have prior knowledge about these PK incidents. Besides, the Pker can choose a spot where you are standing clear of everyone and be hidden then request duel. Now you see no one close and trying to click no, and he gets you right there.

Three, it can even be another player (an accomplice of the PKer), then come from behind and move your arm to the no button when you are focused on the menu.

There are just too many ways this can be exploited for it to make sense.
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Old 2012-08-10, 14:06   Link #88
Clarste
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If you're awake, there's no danger in accidentally accepting a duel because you can just forfeit immediately. So it's just not an issue.
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Old 2012-08-10, 14:11   Link #89
Jinx999
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A lot of these ideas would require that you move people's arms in complicated and precise ways for some time without waking them up. I'd consider this somewhat impractical. Moving someone to just push a button, yes. Going through multiple commands in multiple menus without them waking up would be much more difficult.
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Old 2012-08-10, 14:39   Link #90
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
If you're awake, there's no danger in accidentally accepting a duel because you can just forfeit immediately. So it's just not an issue.
Except the PKer will paralyze you as soon as you accept the duel, making you unable to forfeit. Just like what «Johnny Black» did to Schmidt. System assisted skill attack with paralyze dagger is going to be far faster then you opening a menu then attempt to forfeit a duel.

It would only make sense if this is not possible in the first place. Otherwise LC members would get their free reign PKing in cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx999 View Post
A lot of these ideas would require that you move people's arms in complicated and precise ways for some time without waking them up. I'd consider this somewhat impractical. Moving someone to just push a button, yes. Going through multiple commands in multiple menus without them waking up would be much more difficult.
From LN:

"One of them is when the player's sleeping. There are times when players, with their energy exhausted through long durations of battle, are basically unconscious when they go into a deep sleep, and unable to wake up even with some stimulations. With that opportunity, one could raise a request to duel in «Complete Decisive Mode» and moved the sleeping opponent's finger to press on the OK button. All that was left was to literally make the opponent sleep like the dead.
Another method, that's even more daring, was to drag the opponent's body out of the area. The player lying on the ground couldn't be forcefully moved through the protection of the «Code», but they can be moved about freely if placed on the «Stretcher» item."
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Old 2012-08-10, 14:53   Link #91
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Except the PKer will paralyze you as soon as you accept the duel, making you unable to forfeit. Just like what «Johnny Black» did to Schmidt. System assisted skill attack with paralyze dagger is going to be far faster then you opening a menu then attempt to forfeit a duel.

It would only make sense if this is not possible in the first place. Otherwise LC members would get their free reign PKing in cities.
You can forfeit by voice. They mention this specifically in the first duel that ever happens in the series. Which is also only reasonable, since someone might be trying to wrestle you or something you' be pinned. Not to mention there's like a 30 second countdown or something absurd like that. There's no particular reason you shouldn't be able to forfeit before it starts.

You'll note that they've only complained about "sleep-PKs" in the story. If this was a problem in other circumstances don't you think they would have mentioned it as one of the options for the mystery? They use "he wasn't sleeping" as evidence that the exploit wasn't the answer. It couldn't have been the answer, as far as they were concerned. A logical impossibility that served as the crux of the mystery. It seems like it's not a problem at all.

edit: Wait a second. What the hell do you think is happening in the "sleep-PK" scenario? Because from the way you're talking you seem to be arguing that it's impossible even though it's clearly possible within the story.
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Old 2012-08-10, 15:35   Link #92
SagaraSouske
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That's correct. My first post was that sleep pk was a loophole in the story.

But you are correct, there is a count down. So the scenario I described is not possible. There is enough time to forfeit.
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Old 2012-08-12, 00:36   Link #93
Znail
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I just realised something. What if the people who died in SOA wasn't just killed for the sake of being killed, but actually used as test subjects? Remember that Heathcliff used a powerful brain scan in an attempt to copy himself into the net. What if all the other people who died were used to test that procedure? Getting their brains fried of a powerful brain scan is pretty similar to the metod we have been given for their deaths. That would explain the 'ghost' of Griselda.
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Old 2012-08-12, 00:39   Link #94
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I just realised something. What if the people who died in SOA wasn't just killed for the sake of being killed, but actually used as test subjects? Remember that Heathcliff used a powerful brain scan in an attempt to copy himself into the net. What if all the other people who died were used to test that procedure? Getting their brains fried of a powerful brain scan is pretty similar to the metod we have been given for their deaths. That would explain the 'ghost' of Griselda.
there was no ghost of griselda, that was anime only. So far there is nothing in all 9 novels translated that indicate that SAO player were use as test subjects by Kayaba.
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Old 2012-08-12, 01:16   Link #95
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there was no ghost of griselda, that was anime only. So far there is nothing in all 9 novels translated that indicate that SAO player were use as test subjects by Kayaba.
From the novel version:
Not far away, on the north side of the hill, under the old trees gathered there, beside a moss-riddled tombstone standing there...was a translucent female player giving off a slightly golden light.

Her slender body has the bare minimum metallic armor. The long sword is tied at her waist, the shield is on her back, and her short-haired head has a serene and beautiful face. Her eyes has a strong glow that I know most players have.

The eyes of a clearer who wished to use the blade to end this death game.

This female player who's giving a serene smile watches Asuna and me wordlessly. However, after a while, she extends her right hand over to us to seemingly hand something over.

Asuna and I reached our right hands out, and as we felt the warmth, we clasped onto it tightly. This warmth entered our bodies, lighting the fire within our chest. We opened our mouths and said out the words the form within us.

"Your will…we'll definitely carry it on. One day, we'll definitely beat this game and release everyone for you to see."

"Un, definitely, so…please watch over us, Griselda-san."

Asuna's words rode through the night wind and reached the female swordsman. The transparent face showed a large smile——
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Old 2012-08-12, 07:03   Link #96
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
there was no ghost of griselda, that was anime only. So far there is nothing in all 9 novels translated that indicate that SAO player were use as test subjects by Kayaba.
Considering all the moments they skipped in the anime adaption... that was one I could have done without in anime... but I guess it's a 'sense of wonder at the unknown' type moment.

Also rather touchy-feely for Asuna x Kirito.
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Old 2012-08-13, 00:17   Link #97
Flere821
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Technically, Griselda's ghost could be a foreshadowing about the Fluctlight if/when the anime ever gets there. The anime included that meeting about luring the boss to attack NPCs in a town which Kirito disagrees with, and that only shows up in Vol10 AFAIK (specifically Kirito's views on AIs). If it was just to show Kirito and Asuna meet up later after floor 1, they could have chosen a different scene too (like Asuna saying she dueled Kirito and he pulled the feint of using a second blade). I'm guessing the anime is laying down some foundations for plot much further on.
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Old 2012-08-13, 01:44   Link #98
Wild Goose
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Other possibility is that it's an echo of her ghost, the same way Kayaba's ghost appeared in the climax of Fairy Dance. ( When I write ghost, I refer to the Ghost in the Shell definition of the term.)
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Old 2012-08-13, 02:31   Link #99
don_Durandal
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Or it's just another of Cardinal's quirks.
It's already known to monitor players in some way to create new NPCs, such as using tone of voice and speech patterns.
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Old 2012-08-13, 10:09   Link #100
ronelm2000
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Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
Or it's just another of Cardinal's quirks.
It's already known to monitor players in some way to create new NPCs, such as using tone of voice and speech patterns.
...or it could be something like a <<Cardinal>> special AI designed to emulate <<Kayaba's thought process>>. Just saying.
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