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Old 2012-08-12, 21:58   Link #4781
Destined_Fate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Epyon System requires the Gundam's helmet to be worn for it to be active. If he's not wearing the helmet, then Zechs is not actually using the Epyon System.
That still doesn't change that he was using the Epyon System for sometime. Just because he isn't in Epyon 24/7 doesn't suddenly make him have different views since his views were already being molded by the Epyon System for a prolonged period of time. As far as Millardo knows is that the Epyon System told him that this was the right thing to do to achieve peace by making humanity see the worst war has to offer.

It's not like anyone was around to give him a second opinion until after he was already dead set on this path and joined White Fang.
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Old 2012-08-12, 22:58   Link #4782
Sommer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Lion View Post
It's easy to make excuses for someone you find cool
Or that is pretty

You know, I dont have problem with people liking him as character.He indeed is a good character.But I dont understand why people try to justify everything that the character they like do. He obviously do things that arent written to look like good actions, his actions are written to move the plot and put political and ideological tension toward Heero.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
. As far as Millardo knows is that the Epyon System told him that this was the right thing to do to achieve peace by making humanity see the worst war has to offer.

It's not like anyone was around to give him a second opinion until after he was already dead set on this path and joined White Fang.
Im sure that he is a better character that one who is just manipulated by a machine.
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Old 2012-08-12, 23:18   Link #4783
Destined_Fate
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Just like Heero wasn't manipulated by Epyon? Right... Zero and Epyon systems have shown that they can screw with anyone's mind. The difference is that the Epyon system didn't drive Millardo mad, all it did was push him on a path that he thought would bring about peace.
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Old 2012-08-13, 08:04   Link #4784
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by FalsePrime View Post
Given the animation errors present in the last episode of Wing and the fact that Zech's is fighting Heero on even footing while Heero is using the Zero System it stands to reason that Zechs is in fact using it regardless of him not having the helmet in the last episode.
I never noticed that. Gee, I feel so blind...

*looks through the episodes* Right, he takes the helmet off after he can't kill Noin to get to Peacemillion. Huh, that's more of a shipping moment than I thought... Anyway, suppose Zechs is not using Epyon's ZERO system anymore, does it say anywhere that Heero is using his during their battle? I was looking for the tell-tale yellow screens but I found none in that fight, unlike during the first time they duke it out in those suits.
So, instead of an inconsistency, could it be that they're not using the system altogether?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalsePrime View Post
Also we need to account for the fact that while weirdly everything since Wing always paints Heero as being a ranged fighter he does go melee several times and in fact seems to prefer multiple times and functions very well in Merc.
Indeed, Heero definitely seems to prefer close combat, which is likely due to his mastery of swordsmanship as well as his "poor" aim. He says himself that he has more trouble with space mines than MDs and in episode 30 when he fights as a merc for the Treize faction, he's incapable of shooting down all the missiles with his Leo before they hit the civilians he's trying to protect.
Compare that to the likes of Trowa, who slips in somersaults while taking out projectiles, or Duo, who can both cripple and disarm someone with one shot, or Noin, who's coolly shooting off MSs' legs in a crappy old model while bullets are coming at her from all sides.
It also doesn't help that Heero's buster rifles usually cover a large radius when he fires them, so it's not like he needs to be exceptionally precise. Just look at Libra or the bunker in Brussels. I know it was done for dramatic effect, but it took him five million hours to take aim. xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
He already was using the Epyon System, it's what pushed him to accept the whole White Fang thing. Had they approached him before he was touched by the Epyon and Zero systems it's highly doubtful Zechs would have accepted the invitation if it was still offered.

Quatre was out of the Zero system for sometime, he had time to think about it. Zechs was more than content using the Epyon System without any doubts, he even had Dorothy use it so she could use the Mobile Dolls. To a lesser extent of course, but more than enough to embarrass the Gundam Pilots until Heero had the Zero System put into the Sandrock Kai.
I think you're overestimating the ZERO system's influence. If you remember, Quatre went bananas before he built Zero. When he was laughing madly, Zero wasn't around yet. The kid was out for blood. He said himself that during the construction of Wing Zero, he only focused on the huge rifle. How could Quatre be under the influence of the system if that hadn't been built yet?
The ZERO system was just what kept him from realizing his mistake after he blew up the first colony (or resource satellite, I think it was), hence why he asked himself why he was crying. Since the ZERO system is a combat system that calculates the best course of action to win, without any regards to collateral damage, be it civilians' or even the pilot's life, any compassion Quatre felt was pushed out of his mind. Until Trowa decided to blow himself up.
Same with Dorothy, the system made her not give a rat's butt if she'd wreck Libra, as long as she won against the Gundam pilots.

Of course there's the whole "showing you the future" mumbo jumbo but if you aren't predisposed to take a certain action (I'm not talking about a battle situation but someone's general convictions and beliefs), the ZERO system won't magically turn you into a world-hating nihilist. Wu Fei alone is proof enough for that.
I pointed out in an earlier post that Zechs' twisted idea of turning people into pacifists by abundant slaughter was already present in Antarctica with Relena. Neither Epyon nor Zero were introduced at that point. Aside from that, I believe Zechs was written as a condensed version of Char, hence why he inevitably had to try to throw a big nasty thing at Earth. But no matter what character he's paying homage to, with the way Zechs was written, his actions are entirely his own fault. Epyon might have helped support his decision, but the notion itself was his from the beginning.

Last edited by IkuzeMinna; 2012-08-13 at 08:10. Reason: missing words
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Old 2012-08-13, 13:06   Link #4785
FalsePrime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
I never noticed that. Gee, I feel so blind...

*looks through the episodes* Right, he takes the helmet off after he can't kill Noin to get to Peacemillion. Huh, that's more of a shipping moment than I thought... Anyway, suppose Zechs is not using Epyon's ZERO system anymore, does it say anywhere that Heero is using his during their battle? I was looking for the tell-tale yellow screens but I found none in that fight, unlike during the first time they duke it out in those suits.
So, instead of an inconsistency, could it be that they're not using the system altogether?

.
Honestly I don't know. I tend to doubt that Heero wasn't using Zero. Heero and Zechs both pretty much act as if they have the System mastered by that point so it could be very well why we don't see the Golden eyes.

As it stands the only time I can remember it confirmed that Heero activily chooses not to use the System is during Endless Waltz after the activation and then the fight with Wufei up until Zero activates itself under the ocean.

Even if we some how accept that Zech's skills jumped infinitely in the last two episodes it just makes even less sense for Heero to suddenly drop Zero, even more when this is a path tha Zero has put Heero on the path to take.
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Old 2012-08-13, 16:38   Link #4786
Black Lion
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So speaking of the ZERO system, does anyone else like the idea that it had a sort of sentience to it?

Zero was called an "evil" machine in the series, and several times Heero responds to it as if it just told him something telepathically. I know that the Gundam pilots each had an attachment to their Gundams and talked to them like pets, but Heero didn't. He ditched his Gundam at every opportunity and never once showed any remorse for losing it when he destroyed it. He didn't much care about the Zero and let anyone pilot it. So it's very out of character for him to be affectionate with it just for sentimentality like the others.

I wish this was explored more in-depth in the series, or maybe later in GoL. It kinda reminds me of a malevolent version of ALICE.
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Old 2012-08-13, 17:13   Link #4787
FalsePrime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Lion View Post
So speaking of the ZERO system, does anyone else like the idea that it had a sort of sentience to it?

Zero was called an "evil" machine in the series, and several times Heero responds to it as if it just told him something telepathically. I know that the Gundam pilots each had an attachment to their Gundams and talked to them like pets, but Heero didn't. He ditched his Gundam at every opportunity and never once showed any remorse for losing it when he destroyed it. He didn't much care about the Zero and let anyone pilot it. So it's very out of character for him to be affectionate with it just for sentimentality like the others.

I wish this was explored more in-depth in the series, or maybe later in GoL. It kinda reminds me of a malevolent version of ALICE.
They play with this multiple times. It goes further then Heero just talking to Zero as we see it's Eye's activiate/power up when no one is in the suit.

Also the big scene in Endless Waltz when Zero powers itself on and stands without Heero doing anything. It's not until Heero moves the thrusters that he actually moves the controlls and given Zero "starts" the talk with Heero and motivates him.

Also Frozen Teardrop has already built in elements with this when it comes to the Cat personality being injected into Wyvern's systems to calm it down. Wether they really persuse this though I tend to doubt but it's certainly something that has been discussed alot and something that both Bandai and other forms of Heero have played with.
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Old 2012-08-13, 18:56   Link #4788
Elo the Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommer View Post
Or that is pretty

You know, I dont have problem with people liking him as character.He indeed is a good character.But I dont understand why people try to justify everything that the character they like do. He obviously do things that arent written to look like good actions, his actions are written to move the plot and put political and ideological tension toward Heero.

Im sure that he is a better character that one who is just manipulated by a machine.
Who has tried to justify his actions simply out of affection on this forum? Not that you have to agree with the reasons presented for his actions, especially toward the end of the series, but taking a bit of time to read into them shows there was calculation behind all of them.

He wasn't manipulated by a machine, but it's not far-fetched to think the Zero System didn't act as a guide to an extent, the same way it did for Treize and Wufei.

Up until joining the White Fang, Zechs had been part of OZ without an identity or cause. He wanted revenge for the destruction for the Sanc Kingdom but his battles had no real meaning (leading him to develop an "aesthetic sense in war"). He touches on this in Episode 16 when he commends Heero and company for fighting for the colonies. Fighting to protect what Relena was building and ultimately being too late to save the Sanc Kingdom from collapsing again left him without purpose again.

He realized that he could use the White Fang on his own but the Zero System likely played a small factor as well.
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Old 2012-08-13, 19:31   Link #4789
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but how long is FTD supposed to last?
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Old 2012-08-13, 19:50   Link #4790
FalsePrime
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before, but how long is FTD supposed to last?
As far as I know, I had never heard it was schedueled for a certain length, at least not that it was made public.
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Old 2012-08-13, 20:56   Link #4791
gordol
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So many new MS Designs and we only got a look at Epyon Bai and Prometheus...

Hopeful for this month
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Old 2012-08-13, 21:30   Link #4792
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Originally Posted by gordol View Post
So many new MS Designs and we only got a look at Epyon Bai and Prometheus...

Hopeful for this month
Isn't Bandai releasing MG1/100 kits of Snow White and Warlock? They gotta draw out linearts for those kits to be made. So if anything, we'll see what they look like uncloaked soon.
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Old 2012-08-13, 21:43   Link #4793
FalsePrime
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
Isn't Bandai releasing MG1/100 kits of Snow White and Warlock? They gotta draw out linearts for those kits to be made. So if anything, we'll see what they look like uncloaked soon.
Nah, nothing has been confirmed about Snow White or Warlock getting any models. They just had a little stand with them at one of the shows and said that MG line from Endless Waltz will continue this fall.

So wether that means more Early Types like Tallgeese, Kai's and Zero from EW or something from Frozen Teardrop we don't know.
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Old 2012-08-14, 00:40   Link #4794
Eeni
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Originally Posted by FalsePrime View Post
So wether that means more Early Types like Tallgeese, Kai's and Zero from EW or something from Frozen Teardrop we don't know.
They'll probably continue to troll us just like they have for the past 2+ years.

Anyways, looking through the posts about whether Heero and Zechs were using the ZERO Systems during the final battles, I'm pretty sure it's implied that you can be using the ZERO system regardless of whether you have the helmet on or not. Both Heero and Quatre weren't wearing helmets while they had the system active in their gunadms. I can't imagine Heero not using it during the final battle when it was such a great asset to him and he continued to use it in EW. I can't remember or even begin to imagine why the Epyon would employee you having to use the helmet in order for it to function.. but meh, I would like to imagine Zechs's could use whatever system was in his gundam regardless of the helmet... but that's just me.

Thanks for the clarification about Aoi. The reason I asked was because I recall reading that Heero Pilot was supposed to somehow be the grandson of Heero Politician. But if Aoi isn't related to the Politician then there's no connection. I'm surprised that Sumizawa hasn't thought of making our Politician and Pilot somehow related
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Old 2012-08-14, 20:47   Link #4795
gw_kimmy
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@eeni: YET. ;(

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Aw, lurkers are no fun. Say, what do you think of Glory of Losers? The general consensus is that it's pretty dang good, especially compared to FT. What do you say?
i'm enjoying it so far i love the new art, but i haven't been caught up on chapters as of late @_@ i'm slightly skeptical of the changes that have been made, but also a little hopeful that the changes are for the better and might offer more insight into the characters. hopefully.

as for all this zechs and treize talk, i agree that their motives and reasonings have been made quite clear in the series, although we don't have to agree with either of them. in fact, the GW team doesn't agree with either of them anyways, which is why they don't join either side and just fight to save the earth from libra.

god i love this series for making complex, full and round characters. we don't have to like or agree with them, but at least we can understand them. for the most part.
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Old 2012-08-16, 10:20   Link #4796
Mareike
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*blinks*

I've obviously been away for far too long. Too many discussions I need to keep up with.

Hi, guys~

/proceeds to backtracking
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Old 2012-08-21, 03:04   Link #4797
Eeni
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I feel like its been forever, or maybe it's the long, busy, hot days, but has the new chapter of GotL come out yet?
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There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Old 2012-08-21, 06:59   Link #4798
susyia
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humm and FT?
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Old 2012-08-21, 10:32   Link #4799
Deacon Blues
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeni View Post
I feel like its been forever, or maybe it's the long, busy, hot days, but has the new chapter of GotL come out yet?
I released the chapter ages ago. Gundam Ace comes out 25th.
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戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2012-08-21, 13:40   Link #4800
Eeni
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Originally Posted by Deacon Blues View Post
I released the chapter ages ago. Gundam Ace comes out 25th.
I meant ch.23...

Alright, so wait till after the 25th of each month. Gottcha!

And as always, thanks Deacon!
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There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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