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Old 2012-08-13, 08:43   Link #30001
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How does that logic work
With love, obviously.
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Old 2012-08-13, 12:50   Link #30002
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What, so now it has to be wrong because Battler suggested it based on a reasonable interpretation of the facts... but the one thing he definitely did get right is totally an exception? How does that logic work?
Narrative logic.

If a character proposes a solution to a mistery before the time of the revelation, it's usually not the right solution, because if it was, the reader would lose his chance to reason about it and find the solution by himself.

I say that this logics works for almost every mystery and novels with mystery elements meant to be solved. Unfortunately this logic doesn't really work with Umineko, because apparently Ryuukishi doesn't think it's a bad idea to make a character blatantly tell a solution ("Beatrice? That must have been Shannon-chan dressed like the lady of the portrait." - Eva, Episode 1).


That being said, I don't really think that Battler's solution was "definitely" right. Maybe it's actually right, but it's not like I particularly like it. I mean you need to think that someone who was on the verge of death totally looked dead and stayed silent when they first saw the bodies and then "reanimated" himself\herslef just for the purpose of killing a probably irrelevant person rather than... I dunno... look for help or telling the truth about the criminal.
Instead this person just kills Nanjo and then conveniently dies soon afterward.

Well I can't deny the possibility because... I've seen worse, but still... this solution isn't necessary once you realize that the shkanon trick, who already must exist, can explain this mystery already.
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Old 2012-08-13, 13:07   Link #30003
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I think there is a good chance the only limitation Beatrice has to deal with is the laws of physics.

Rather, it's probably a better idea to think of the mysteries in Umineko as a scene full of special effects from a movie and trying to explain how they produced that scene. "How dunnit" certainly does applies to movies.

Actually that arc 8 celebration after Ange falls asleeps makes me think its pretty likely that the entire "cast" of Umineko is pretty much the same as Kanon and Shannon in Our Confession.



If anything I've been thinking more and more that from a writer's pov, Kanon and Shanon are "weapons of the crime" (while the author is the murderer). I'm not entirely certain that prevents, strickly speaking, Beatrice from using other such weapons. I guess at that point it's like asking if in arc 6 Erika's murder of everyone was actually part of Battler's plot.
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Old 2012-08-14, 02:13   Link #30004
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For Hideyoshi's murder, I've always wondered if Rudolf (or Kyrie, since that's apparently what the manga shows) shot him, then Eva staked what she assumed was his corpse, but then realised he wasn't actually quite dead until she staked him.

It explains the "How careless. He was still living..." on the tips screen and also why Eva is shown wondering to herself "Did I kill...that person? Did I kill...him?" later. It might also explain why she refers to herself as 'the culprit' at the end.
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Old 2012-08-14, 04:06   Link #30005
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That would be interesting, I always wondered about that tip. Maybe Eva was receiving the Natsuhi treatment in that game, with the culprit ordering her around lest George be killed.

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after Ange falls asleeps
I always wondered if there was meant to be some deep meaning behind Ange falling asleep before things went crazy
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Old 2012-08-14, 08:18   Link #30006
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Well I can't deny the possibility because... I've seen worse, but still... this solution isn't necessary once you realize that the shkanon trick, who already must exist, can explain this mystery already.
Except Shkanon is just as bad, because it requires red cheating and killing Nanjo with no motive. At least someone else thought to be dead could reach the conclusion that Nanjo is an accomplice and kill him. Shkanon knows Nanjo is an accomplice, and gains basically nothing from killing him. It's completely unfair and irrational if Shkanon is allowed to dodge all motive questions in addition to having all logistical questions handwaved too. It's a cheap solution.
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Actually that arc 8 celebration after Ange falls asleeps makes me think its pretty likely that the entire "cast" of Umineko is pretty much the same as Kanon and Shannon in Our Confession.
Of course they are. You've never met the real Ushiromiya clan. Then again, maybe they are the only real Ushiromiya clan... I mean, Prime doesn't actually exist, after all.
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Old 2012-08-14, 08:52   Link #30007
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Except Shkanon is just as bad, because it requires red cheating and killing Nanjo with no motive. At least someone else thought to be dead could reach the conclusion that Nanjo is an accomplice and kill him. Shkanon knows Nanjo is an accomplice, and gains basically nothing from killing him. It's completely unfair and irrational if Shkanon is allowed to dodge all motive questions in addition to having all logistical questions handwaved too. It's a cheap solution.
That's a moot point since our confession basically tells us that Yasu's plan involves killing all of her accomplices. This is really not a matter of what makes sense or not anymore, in the end it could be entirely possible that from the very moment Eva and Battler started their battle in the metaworld, the scenario became pretty similar to what we have seen in EP6, where the witch side doesn't give a damn about narrative consistency anymore and all that matters is to make use of that "wonderful trick that you cannot see without love" in order to win and defeat the human side.

Both the solutions are lame in the end, but at least one is known (unless you are a denialist) to be true, and I'd rather take one poison rather than two if I have the option. In addition while it doesn't make sense inside the game it makes more sense from a higher perspective that the "impossible trick" that defeated Battler in EP3 is about shkanon and not about something completely irrelevant to the bigger picture.
Despite the fact you think shkanon is unnecessary and lame, you should still be able to recognize that for Yasu and for Ryuukishi this is a pretty important matter if not the key to understand umineko (even if you don't agree with it, and mind it, I don't either, not fully at least.) seeing as how the author basically dedicated a whole episode to that.
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Old 2012-08-14, 09:17   Link #30008
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Except there's no point in doing it then, or doing it at all. There's a bomb. The bomb kills everyone. Nanjo presumably doesn't know about it (which is, at least, one reason to kill Genji directly, since he does). Per this solution, Shkanon was perfectly willing to fake being Kanon and comfort Jessica and apparently not kill her, but Nanjo had to get shot point-blank instead of just leaving him to explode alongside Eva, Battler, and Jessica?

You can argue there were "necessary" reasons to kill Kumasawa and Gohda in order to form the closed room chain for the FT. There is no "necessary" reason to get rid of Nanjo at this point that the story conveys. The sole reason it's done is to present an "impossible" death, but as Battler rightly points out it's not even impossible as long as somebody other than Jessica/Battler/Eva is still alive when Nanjo is killed.

And whether you believe the person he suggested is right or wrong, that answer was right. Battler was correct in the fundamental construction of his solution. And, in proposing a non-Shkanon solution, he accidentally shot a giant hole in the entire narrative construction. All anyone has to do is be alive right up until the point all the deaths are declared. And since personality death red evasion is not only valid but entirely acceptable and considered by Ryukishi to be the proper solution, literally anyone is a valid answer for the mystery.

I don't think Beatrice let that one slide because she didn't care, but because she basically couldn't fight it without saying "Yeah well it's different when Shannon and Kanon die." And Ryukishi couldn't have her say that because it's a load of crap.
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Old 2012-08-14, 09:43   Link #30009
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Like I said, it's pointless to point out the fact that the shkanon solution doesn't make sense, when the other proposed solution isn't much better. I'm not arguing that the shkanon solution makes sense.

The point is that shkanon is something that I have already accepted for obvious reasons, why should I accept another lame explanation when one suffices?


As for Battler being "right", he was right as much as one is "right" in exploiting a bug in the system. In other words your definition of "right" doesn't really suit me. Oh I guess this follows the logic of the big cheese of EP6, but if you ask me, Erika was wrong because she narrow mindedly decided to only consider the stated hints and completely ignored the whole picture, the fact that it was a riddle from children book of riddles for example, apart from ignoring the "big" hint.
But the point is that the intended solution which was written in the book was "three" and not "one". The same way it matters not that Battler's solution "worked" if it wasn't the right solution, and Beatrice could have destroyed that if she really wanted with just a few reds.
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Old 2012-08-14, 10:12   Link #30010
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I feel like we are forgetting that Ryu pointed it out as his theory, I really hope he'd have enough common sense to know that he was destroying his own story....

As for the personality death of everyone, sure you COULD claim it, but it would be a bit like small bombs, there isn't really a clue for it. At least Shannon, Kanon and (just the latter part of three works) Beato have sprites and characters that appear in the story, so are by far the most complete and mentioned personalities. Sure you could argue that Eva Beatrice is one for Eva, except that she never existed outside fantasy scenes. Beatrice did though, and was someone Yasu was actually known to portray.

Also the thing about Jessica being left alive, we know that Yasu likes to keep people she likes alive to the end (so generally Maria dies very late) I guess in that episode her relationship with Jessica was a valid option right to the end (where she discarded everyone in 4). The thing about killing Nanjo is it did achieve 2 things: One it obviously messed with Eva and Battler an awful lot (enough that Eva, who we know was in the mansion, somehow ends up going to the secret Mansion, maybe she even spoke to Beato...) and also, it is possible Nanjo was going to ruin her plans. He has seen the craziness that is Yasu, and who knows what he does or doesn't know about the bomb. But more importantly, maybe in a game where things don't seem to be following his assumed blackmailer's plan, he got skittish about keeping everything a secret. Ep 3 is one where things happen without Yasu meaning to, maybe Nanjo noticed. Especially if Yasu had to hold an emergency meeting to try and do damage control after Maria and Rosa died.....

Side-note: What is the wider community's view on the Hideyoshi TIP about not being dead yet?
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Old 2012-08-14, 15:17   Link #30011
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As for the personality death of everyone, sure you COULD claim it, but it would be a bit like small bombs, there isn't really a clue for it.
Actually, there are clues for it everywhere, and they're exactly as detailed as any of the ones that are claimed as actual killable personalities. It's a huge gaping storyline hole and he shouldn't have even breached the subject of "other selves" with characters who aren't Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice if he didn't want that floodgate opened. Alternately, just... don't cheat. But he wasn't smart enough to write Banquet without cheating. Makes you wonder if Land was a better-constructed idea and Banquet was a hasty retooling, honestly. It's the only time blatant cheating with red is actually necessary to reach Ryukishi's apparently intended solution. It's also arguably one of the few times motive is questionable in several cases.
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Old 2012-08-14, 15:47   Link #30012
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Of course they are. You've never met the real Ushiromiya clan. Then again, maybe they are the only real Ushiromiya clan... I mean, Prime doesn't actually exist, after all.
Well I meant more specifically that like Shannon and Kanon they are fictional beings that are aware of their roles and grateful to have been given the opportunity to play it.

The hair splitting it sorta changes is that you don't claim a character is lying in a play for saying "I saw a ghost chasing me" even tho ghosts cannot exists. An Umineko equivalent means that Shannon's corpse in arc 1, people didn't like about it as much as they "stuck to their roles of the story" (in which Shannon's corpse was indeed there).

Basically it means that the "how dunnit" is merely a technical aspect that isn't related to the actual story we are presented and reading (I mean, the "board" one).

It's like Why What and How dunnits exists in three seperate story levels. The "how dunnit world" more or less respects typical mystery but it only brings you the answer to "how dunnit" and nothing related to the larger story.

Even if you disagree with that statement you have to admit that no matter how much information we got about the "how dunnit" it never actually added anything that made any sense to the gameboard story. Rather it only ridiculously complexed it to a point where most of us has trouble accepting the outcome, especially as far as Shkanon is concerned. I believe that much like arc 8 tried to present us, it's possible to enjoy riddles (the litteral riddles of arc 8 with Ange) and the story as two things that have zero connection with each other and does not answer each other. It's in fact pretty much what we do whenever playing almost any sort of videogame with a given story. Which is interesting because Umineko is a videogame, that much is far more certain then it being a typical mystery.

Not to mention the several references to videogames Ryuukishi made about it or within it. Especially the one about arc 1 being like trying to fight an RPG's final boss at level 5 (or something like that).

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Old 2012-08-14, 16:26   Link #30013
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For Hideyoshi's murder, I've always wondered if Rudolf (or Kyrie, since that's apparently what the manga shows) shot him, then Eva staked what she assumed was his corpse, but then realised he wasn't actually quite dead until she staked him.

It explains the "How careless. He was still living..." on the tips screen and also why Eva is shown wondering to herself "Did I kill...that person? Did I kill...him?" later. It might also explain why she refers to herself as 'the culprit' at the end.
The problem would be where Eva would get the stake and why she would use them.
The stakes should have been in Yasu's possession, since she likely planned to use them for her murder game.
Once Eva solved things it would look weird if Shannon had handed her the stakes... unless she knew she was going to resume murdering people and wanted her to follow her methods (the stakes weren't used before so Eva couldn't know about them).
Kyrie and Rudolf should be dead by the time Battler saw them as Rudolf clearly had a hole in his head and Kyrie a stake in her body so, if Eva is the killer, we would have the problem of who killed George and Nanjo.
We know Eva couldn't have killed Nanjo and I've hard time picturing her killing George.

Even if we assume Battler didn't properly check Hideyoshi, I've the same amount of troubles believing Hideyoshi killed George.

Plus we should need to find a way for Hideyoshi to cheat with the red.

Personally it's easier to think Eva was manipulated like Natsuhi and that she believed that, due to her actions, she caused someone's death. In short she could have saved person X had she done Y but she didn't and so person X is dead.

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Except Shkanon is just as bad, because it requires red cheating and killing Nanjo with no motive.
Theoretically the motive can be that Nanjo saved her life... but she would have preferred to die due to her body unable to be loved.

What I'm annoyed at is that after getting so much ranting about the motive and how it's tied to the heart and so on PieceShannon's motive is that basically she went mad and so decided to murder everyone around her who did something that upset her. Sometimes not even that as i doubt Hideyoshi did something against her. We never hear him saying he would be against george dating Shannon and he's always nice with her.
Gohda could have been annoying but really, the world has many guys like him and they end up killed because they're annoying only when they end up crossing the road of someone who's temporally or permanently out of his mind.

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Except there's no point in doing it then, or doing it at all. There's a bomb. The bomb kills everyone. Nanjo presumably doesn't know about it (which is, at least, one reason to kill Genji directly, since he does). Per this solution, Shkanon was perfectly willing to fake being Kanon and comfort Jessica and apparently not kill her, but Nanjo had to get shot point-blank instead of just leaving him to explode alongside Eva, Battler, and Jessica?
The interesting part is that actually we don't know what happened to Jessica. We've a fantasy scene in which Kanon took her in the parlour... but who said Yasu didn't kill her once she got there? Or that he planned to kill her but was... let's say distracted by Eva shooting at Battler, went to check without being seen by Eva, discovered Battler dead, shoot herself and let Eva shoot Jessica since Eva believed Jessica killed Nanjo?

The truth is the game paused and on Jessica's fate is put a big question mark.

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And since personality death red evasion is not only valid but entirely acceptable and considered by Ryukishi to be the proper solution, literally anyone is a valid answer for the mystery.
Theoretically yes, but then you should prove that said person had another personality as you can't solve the story without hints.
On the other side Umineko sometimes has a bizzarre idea of what's acceptable in the human world and what's not and leaves you a lot of freedom so you can force another solution but... hum... what would be the point in forcing another solution?
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Old 2012-08-14, 18:29   Link #30014
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Actually, there are clues for it everywhere, and they're exactly as detailed
I disagree, while it is said everyone has two sides to themselves, the only other "sides" which walked around in different costumes being their own selves on Rokkenjima were those of Yasu's. They even had their own sprite.

Sure you could talk about Witch Maria or Jessie, but they were variations on the the theme and not whole different people.

I guess it is splitting hairs, but I don't really believe anyone else's extra personalities had the same detail. And once again, Eva Beatrice doesn't count as she was more a fantasy character, while Shannon, Kannon and Beatrice all appeared in the main and objective story.

Though I will agree the red trick was a little shady.
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Old 2012-08-14, 18:36   Link #30015
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It was a constant theme though. Rosa and The black witch, Jessica with friends/family, Maria and MARIA.. That's all I can think of now. George even used forever to talk about how people create multiple personalities in order to fit in. I always found the wording a bit odd, since a much more "normal" way to say it is simply "switching roles". Though that might just be the english translation, so I never gave it much thought.
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Old 2012-08-14, 19:36   Link #30016
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What I'm annoyed at is that after getting so much ranting about the motive and how it's tied to the heart and so on PieceShannon's motive is that basically she went mad and so decided to murder everyone around her who did something that upset her.
Come now, it's not nearly as simple as that, "That person is a dick, so it's okay to MURDER THEM." I do agree, however, that Ryu is pretty inconsistent in this regard. Basically all of Chiru is wagging it's finger at treating mysteries as though they were nothing more than riddles, but there are multiple instances when something appears to happen on the gameboard JUST to throw people's logic for some insane loop. For example, putting aside the EP3 Nanjo thing, WHY was the PIN number written on the Parlor door..? What sense could that have POSSIBLY made except 1.) Introducing the number for later and 2.) Having a message be written when no readily apparent writers are available ..?

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The interesting part is that actually we don't know what happened to Jessica. We've a fantasy scene in which Kanon took her in the parlour... but who said Yasu didn't kill her once she got there? Or that he planned to kill her but was... let's say distracted by Eva shooting at Battler, went to check without being seen by Eva, discovered Battler dead, shoot herself and let Eva shoot Jessica since Eva believed Jessica killed Nanjo?

The truth is the game paused and on Jessica's fate is put a big question mark.
I'd disagree that the game was paused in the same sense that End and Dawn were, just because we didnt make it to midnight. You might as well say "we have no proof Eva survived EP3" just because we didn't get a scene of her going to the Kuwadorian. Regardless of whether Yasu was alive or not (there's room to argue otherwise, after all), the strong implication is that Jessica (and honestly, Battler too) were just left aside to explode.

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It was a constant theme though. Rosa and The black witch, Jessica with friends/family, Maria and MARIA.. That's all I can think of now. George even used forever to talk about how people create multiple personalities in order to fit in. I always found the wording a bit odd, since a much more "normal" way to say it is simply "switching roles". Though that might just be the english translation, so I never gave it much thought.
It's interesting that EP3 is the only time Battler ever even considers this sort of word play. Ryu's intentional mislead, I suppose, but I agree with what you're saying. Just because relevant clues weren't presented evenly for each human, doesn't exclude the fact that clues regarding "other selves" exist for a large portion of them. After all, Evatrice had to specify that all murder was impossible for Jessica's body. Though, in the very strictest sense, she might also have had to define Jessica's body as "the one she is most often seen using, and is also the only body she is capable of using."
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Old 2012-08-14, 20:07   Link #30017
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I think the trick is that it have to be the someone who gives life to the Beatrice persona to work because we were introduced to the other personalities/persona only later (though we caught glimpses of both MARIA and Rosa black witch) and in Ep 5 it was said the culprit should have been introduced right from the beginning, first we saw Beatrice's picture and then we heard Maria met her and Beatrice gave her the letter and the umbrella.
In addition all the other persona aren't really acknowledged as separate identities by the others (with the exception of Maria) while Shannon and Kanon are assumed to be different people and as for Beatrice, not only no one really connects her to them (sure, they suspect Shannon dressed up in the beginning by Beatrice was playing pranks by a long while and no one connected them to Shannon) but they don't aknowledge they're the same person while Jessica admits she's also Jessie and Rosa knows she's the black witch... and even Maria aknowledged she's MARIA and didn't talk about MARIA as a different person.

The only one who's a bit split is Ange, as sometimes Ange and ANGE doesn't seem to be aware of what the other does... through Ange uses ANGE's powers during the travel to summon the stakes while she's on the board or to talk with Maria so I tend to think hers is a different case.

So, the personality that the culprit has to have is 'Beatrice' whose apparictions weren't just limited to the murder game as she existed previously and played pranks.
If you don't rule the pranks out as merely someone making fun of Shannon and such as Erika did it gets pretty easily to cut away people who couldn't have been Beatrice.

Anyway, I find this personality trick either pretty lame or pretty insane.
If it's just lame well, it's a pity but if the key is that Yasu is insane... well, I'm sorry for her but I can't really put myself in her shoes as Ryukishi implied readers should be able to do.

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Come now, it's not nearly as simple as that, "That person is a dick, so it's okay to MURDER THEM."
So what's the motive for Gohda's murder?

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WHY was the PIN number written on the Parlor door..? What sense could that have POSSIBLY made except 1.) Introducing the number for later and 2.) Having a message be written when no readily apparent writers are available ..?
I've always thought Eva was an accomplice and that was a moking message to her 'you chose to cooperate with me for the money... in exchange you lost your husband and son'

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I'd disagree that the game was paused in the same sense that End and Dawn were, just because we didnt make it to midnight. You might as well say "we have no proof Eva survived EP3" just because we didn't get a scene of her going to the Kuwadorian. Regardless of whether Yasu was alive or not (there's room to argue otherwise, after all), the strong implication is that Jessica (and honestly, Battler too) were just left aside to explode.
Actually since Battler was shoot and fell and didn't move any further it seems he was going to die sooner than the explosion.

At the end of Ep 3 is said that Eva survived the game, while the status of Jessica is left unknown. Of course it's possible she was also left to blow up.

Quote:
Ushiromiya Battler

Died at the ninth twilight.
The new witch will not let anyone survive.

Ushiromiya Jessica

Missing on the tenth twilight
The witch, whose existence she recognized and whom she prostrated herself before, beckoned her to the Golden Land.

Ushiromiya Eva

Solved the riddle of the epitaph. Returned from Rokkenjima alive.
The witch praised her victory, and gave her all of the gold and magic.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-08-14 at 20:18.
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Old 2012-08-14, 20:17   Link #30018
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I'd disagree that the game was paused in the same sense that End and Dawn were, just because we didnt make it to midnight. You might as well say "we have no proof Eva survived EP3" just because we didn't get a scene of her going to the Kuwadorian. Regardless of whether Yasu was alive or not (there's room to argue otherwise, after all), the strong implication is that Jessica (and honestly, Battler too) were just left aside to explode.
Well, in EP6 Ange mentioned in inner monologue how Banquet even showed how Eva escaped to the Kuwadorian.

Not sure if this was Ange merely assuming or if she actually got a different story than we did. At least regarding End she spoke about how 7 of her family members were gruesomely murdered, which doesn't exactly fit what we know about End or what we'd know without the meta-info (she wouldn't know what had happened to Krauss- maybe she's just assuming, who knows). In any case, it does appear that what she read was different than what we read, but it's still really hard to tell exactly how what she read differs from what we read.
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Old 2012-08-15, 08:49   Link #30019
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Sure you could talk about Witch Maria or Jessie, but they were variations on the the theme and not whole different people.
Except you can't just dismiss it like that. You actually pointed out the problem yourself when you described them as "variations on the theme." There is an incredibly long-running theme in ep1-4 about having multiple identities. And the thing is, Shannon and Kanon get the least of this, because they have a separate theme entirely of having any identity at all. At the very least, it's impossible to set aside the notion that characters other than Shkanon could meet the whole personality standard when one of the major points of ep3 is that Eva has "another self" who becomes a witch. And as we see clearly in ep4, Eva and EVA-Beatrice are different beings, at least morally.

Because that theme exists, it's completely unfair and untrue to say "Shkanon is the only person for whom any identity issue is raised." It's raised all the time, and depending on how much you stretch it it's raised for a large majority of the cast. Does that make those situations equally plausible? Perhaps not. But it also doesn't make the intended solution any more fair, because it suggests personality death could apply to anyone who has a separate personality to kill off, but it just doesn't for anyone who isn't Shkanon because ???.
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Even if you disagree with that statement you have to admit that no matter how much information we got about the "how dunnit" it never actually added anything that made any sense to the gameboard story. Rather it only ridiculously complexed it to a point where most of us has trouble accepting the outcome, especially as far as Shkanon is concerned. I believe that much like arc 8 tried to present us, it's possible to enjoy riddles (the litteral riddles of arc 8 with Ange) and the story as two things that have zero connection with each other and does not answer each other. It's in fact pretty much what we do whenever playing almost any sort of videogame with a given story. Which is interesting because Umineko is a videogame, that much is far more certain then it being a typical mystery.

Not to mention the several references to videogames Ryuukishi made about it or within it. Especially the one about arc 1 being like trying to fight an RPG's final boss at level 5 (or something like that).
Except treating it that way is exactly the opposite of what we were told to do in Episode 7. How are we supposed to either take the work seriously as a character drama or approach it as an intellectual puzzler when the author himself is not consistent in his message as to how we ought to enjoy his work? He brings all this criticism on himself by being inconsistent. As Kealym said, he does stuff that exists solely to be a puzzle or plot twist and which has no discernible motive (or at least, we've never discerned one that makes it immediately necessary to take the action as opposed to "I have a lingering resentment," which contradicts the ep5 red about Beatrice's motives). Then he turns around and tells us that motive is the most important part.

Okay, so why is Beatrice so goddamn gung-ho about killing poor Gohda? Because he's a little bit arrogant and not always nice to other servants? Is that what we're supposed to take away from this? Or worse, if she has nothing against Gohda at all, she's totally okay with murdering him just to construct a puzzle? How can we treat her as a sympathetic figure when she has the motives of a complete sociopath? And if we're only supposed to ask how something was possible, why is it important that we finger a specific culprit or even a single culprit for every event?
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-08-15, 11:17   Link #30020
Drifloon
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
The problem would be where Eva would get the stake and why she would use them.
The stakes should have been in Yasu's possession, since she likely planned to use them for her murder game.
Once Eva solved things it would look weird if Shannon had handed her the stakes... unless she knew she was going to resume murdering people and wanted her to follow her methods (the stakes weren't used before so Eva couldn't know about them).
Beatrice presumably told her about her plan after she solved the epitaph, like in the EP7 tea party. So when she suddenly had three deaths on her hands, she decided to follow that plan herself to maintain the Illusion of the Witch. Alternatively, Beatrice staked them herself to maintain that illusion, if you like.

Quote:
Kyrie and Rudolf should be dead by the time Battler saw them as Rudolf clearly had a hole in his head and Kyrie a stake in her body so, if Eva is the killer, we would have the problem of who killed George and Nanjo.
One word: Beatrice.

Quote:
What I'm annoyed at is that after getting so much ranting about the motive and how it's tied to the heart and so on PieceShannon's motive is that basically she went mad and so decided to murder everyone around her who did something that upset her.
Beatrice never murdered for revenge. I think it's more likely that she believed that everyone really would be united in the Golden Land if they believed. It's pretty obvious that the ceremony is more important than the actual murders, though I admit Nanjo's murder is pretty weird in that respect. The post-8th twilight murders always bug me.
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