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Old 2012-08-14, 14:29   Link #41
Rainbowman
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I just thought of something: Since Kidd, Apoo, and Hawkins are here, we can find out what devil fruits they have if and when they make their move.
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Old 2012-08-14, 14:33   Link #42
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Oda is reinforcing exactly what we readers believe; the supernovas (and by extension the SHs, as well) are still no match by themselves against the might of an emperor+their forces. Of course, this was obvious, but yet there are still some skeptics out there that are not entirely convinced .
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Old 2012-08-14, 14:36   Link #43
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Well, well, well..... it figures I'd see you pop up in this thread sooner or later, grey_1960:

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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Small size can also be an advantage
Just to let you know Marvel B Black Beard was no were near White Beard and he managed to get the WG and WB to fight each other and he replaced him has yonkou. He did it without an alliance.

Apples and oranges. Blackbeard is a veteran pirate who spent decades in the New World as a part of Whitebear's crew. And it was thanks to his connection with his old crew that he was able to manipulate the events leading up to and after the war. You cannot compare him with the super rookies.



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Second Hisoka?? brought up a good idea about guerrilla tactics. They work well against large groups. Look at vietnam and the American revolution. They are a proof that big size is not always a good thing.
Uh, while it's neat that you're bringing up real wars and all, they don't really have anything to do with this debate. What I'm saying is that it's necessary to obtain the perfect balance of quantity AND quality if the supernovas intend to topple the emperors. A single crew waging war against the New World's finest is just flat-out suicidal, as I pointed out before. Kid sinking a few of Big Mom's ships doesn't mean jack if there weren't any monsters like Pekoms on board (let alone Charlotte herself)....


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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Second I think Luffy can hold his own against and admiral now that he has haki and he is stronger. I also think Luffy's haki is stronger then Marco or Vista's haki. I have seen only two people who has displaying haki use similar to Luffy, that would be Shanks and Rayleigh.

Tsk, tsk.... once again with the baseless conjecture, I see. Knocking out half a fodder army of racist fish-dudes doesn't exactly mean that Luffy is admiral level, y'know. Really, I'd say that the best way to gauge Luffy's strength for ourselves would be to see how well he would fare against a vice-admiral, let alone an admiral. So how about we wait and see how much of a challenge Vergo proves himself to be before we entertain the possibility of Luffy being capable of bitch-slapping Akainu now, shall we?
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Old 2012-08-14, 14:39   Link #44
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So how about we wait and see how much of a challenge Vergo proves himself to be before we entertain the possibility of Luffy being capable of bitch-slapping Akainu now, shall we?
Well, I doubt that will happen. More likely Smoker or Law will combat Vergo (I kind of want Law to fight Slimie), leaving Caesar to Luffy.

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Knocking out half a fodder army of racist fish-dudes doesn't exactly mean that Luffy is admiral level, y'know.
To be fair, if Luffy's Haki is as great if not greater than Shanks, then Luffy could conceivably knock-out the vast majority of any of the Yonkou's forces (obviously not the commanders, but everyone underneath). (I base this only on the fact that Shanks was able to knockout even Whitebeard's hardened crew members with relative ease.)

That being said, I do agree that alliances are the only way to go.
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Old 2012-08-14, 14:52   Link #45
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Well, I doubt that will happen. More likely Smoker or Law will combat Vergo (I kind of want Law to fight Slimie), leaving Caesar to Luffy.
While that MAY be true, it could still turn out that Vergo will be the true final boss of the arc. After all, we still don't really know what powers he has....



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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
To be fair, if Luffy's Haki is as great if not greater than Shanks, then Luffy could conceivably knock-out the vast majority of any of the Yonkou's forces (obviously not the commanders, but everyone underneath). (I base this only on the fact that Shanks was able to knockout even Whitebeard's hardened crew members with relative ease.)

In a recent SBS Oda said that Shanks would have been capable of knocking out Hody's entire army. However, he also noted that the number of opponents knocked out doesn't actually gauge the strength of conqueror's haki.


So I think this pretty much boils down to another question of "quality vs quantity" (like, if Shanks knocked out the whole army, would that also include Hody and the officers?). So I still stand by what I say about fodder control not being an important factor in whether or not Luffy is admiral/yonkou level....
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Old 2012-08-14, 15:11   Link #46
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Well, well, well..... it figures I'd see you pop up in this thread sooner or later, grey_1960:

Apples and oranges. Blackbeard is a veteran pirate who spent decades in the New World as a part of Whitebear's crew. And it was thanks to his connection with his old crew that he was able to manipulate the events leading up to and after the war. You cannot compare him with the super rookies.

Uh, while it's neat that you're bringing up real wars and all, they don't really have anything to do with this debate. What I'm saying is that it's necessary to obtain the perfect balance of quantity AND quality if the supernovas intend to topple the emperors. A single crew waging war against the New World's finest is just flat-out suicidal, as I pointed out before. Kid sinking a few of Big Mom's ships doesn't mean jack if there weren't any monsters like Pekoms on board (let alone Charlotte herself)....

Tsk, tsk.... once again with the baseless conjecture, I see. Knocking out half a fodder army of racist fish-dudes doesn't exactly mean that Luffy is admiral level, y'know. Really, I'd say that the best way to gauge Luffy's strength for ourselves would be to see how well he would fare against a vice-admiral, let alone an admiral. So how about we wait and see how much of a challenge Vergo proves himself to be before we entertain the possibility of Luffy being capable of bitch-slapping Akainu now, shall we?
LOL Here I am
Black Beard still did it regardless and he is a living proof. He beat the odds and made Yonkou. Black Beard isn't the only one with connections. Luffy has Shanks and Rayleigh. Those are pretty good connections for not being in the New World.

You know Oda stories and characters are heavily inspired by real people, culture, history, and events. Black Beard is a real person. Being flat-out suicidal did not stop Luffy from participating in MarineFord War. Also Luffy already has one Yonkou gunning for him Big Mamma.

Say what you will about Luffy but I have yet to see Oda challenge him. Second Luffy is using haki all the time, he got training from an expert, and he knows what the Admirals are capable of from first hand experience. I think Luffy's decision to train for two years was based on his experience in Saboday and MarineFord War. It was a hard and humble lesson for Luffy but it gave him a taste of the New World. Personally I think Marine Ford war was a New World experience for Luffy. I believe when Rayleigh trained Luffy, it was so there would be no repeat of Saboday. Luffy is prepared.
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Old 2012-08-14, 18:40   Link #47
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I think Clown is proving to be a pretty good villain so far, his powers are deadly and he is sinister and creepy sort of like Orochimaru (maybe not as creepy as him) but I am curious to see how the big fight will go or if the plan is simply just to capture him without a fight?
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Old 2012-08-14, 19:16   Link #48
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How's that confusing? We've known Smoker's body was able to move without a heart for just about the whole time Tashigi was swapped with him. She even pointed out HERSELF how odd it was function without a heart. Or did you forget that Law and Monet are ALSO moving around without hearts? ....
Smoker's body was able to move around because Tashigi was in it. It doesn't explain why he is able to move now when being switched back instead of just keeling over like he did the first time his heart was removed during his fight with Law.
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Old 2012-08-14, 20:18   Link #49
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Quote:
It doesn't explain why he is able to move now when being switched back instead of just keeling over like he did the first time his heart was removed during his fight with Law.
Law's body doesn't have a heart either. And he seems to be moving just fine.

You only 'keel over' it seems when someone is squeezing hard on it, or else doing something to it. If it's just in a stationary state, you should be able to move normally.
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Old 2012-08-14, 21:08   Link #50
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Law's body doesn't have a heart either. And he seems to be moving just fine.

You only 'keel over' it seems when someone is squeezing hard on it, or else doing something to it. If it's just in a stationary state, you should be able to move normally.
I'm not nitpicking or anything I'm just curious as to how this is happening. Hence my questions.
When Smoker's heart was removed why did he fall down unconcious? Why didn't he just keep going like he is now?
Is a body switch all that's needed for someone to keep moving without a heart? If so does this apply to Law and Monet as well? Are they switched with someone else?
Did Law remove his own and Monet's hearts?
If so who revived them when they were unconcious? Did Caesar do it or someone else?
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Old 2012-08-15, 09:44   Link #51
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Wonder if Kid lost his arm, or if that is a permanent bionic improvement.

Seeing the SN band together is pretty neat. I wonder which Yonkou they want to go after.
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Old 2012-08-15, 09:57   Link #52
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Quote:
I'm not nitpicking or anything I'm just curious as to how this is happening. Hence my questions.
When Smoker's heart was removed why did he fall down unconcious? Why didn't he just keep going like he is now?
Is a body switch all that's needed for someone to keep moving without a heart? If so does this apply to Law and Monet as well? Are they switched with someone else?
Did Law remove his own and Monet's hearts?
If so who revived them when they were unconcious? Did Caesar do it or someone else?
I am curious too..but I'm not sure if it can be explained logically or if it's just 'OP physics'.
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Old 2012-08-15, 10:33   Link #53
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It can simply be that Law squeezed and suffocated Smoker's heart the moment he removed it to cause him to faint and defeat him instantly.

It has always been shown since Law's first fight in Shabondy that the people and body parts he separated can always function normally.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:57   Link #54
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I'm still unclear about the confusion with the whole heart business. While I admit that I also raised my share of questions about it when we first saw Law use Mes on Smoker, I pretty much accepted it straight away as soon as we saw Tashigi was able to function normally in an otherwise heartless body. As for why Smokey passed out at that time.... well, my only guess is that it's a "side effect" of sorts of using Mes (so for all we know, Law and Monet could have passed out when they traded hearts, as well).....




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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Say what you will about Luffy but I have yet to see Oda challenge him. Second Luffy is using haki all the time, he got training from an expert, and he knows what the Admirals are capable of from first hand experience. I think Luffy's decision to train for two years was based on his experience in Saboday and MarineFord War. It was a hard and humble lesson for Luffy but it gave him a taste of the New World. Personally I think Marine Ford war was a New World experience for Luffy. I believe when Rayleigh trained Luffy, it was so there would be no repeat of Saboday. Luffy is prepared.


Grey, I just want you to answer me this one question: If going to war against an emperor were really as simple as you apparently think it is, would you mind explaining exactly why we're seeing the supernovas seeking alliances with each other? Don't you think that they themselves would already be emperors by now if they were really THAT badass by themselves to begin with? Because this whole alliance thing kind of defeats your argument, I think.


And we already went over the reasons for Luffy's training before: It was so he'd be strong enough to survive in the New World, not strong enough to conquer it. There's a HUGE difference. Going to war against an emperor right now without proper preparation would basically be like going through Marineford all over again. It's better that he makes as many strong allies as he can so he actually does stand the slightest chance against the NW's rulers.....
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Old 2012-08-15, 16:03   Link #55
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Wonder if Kid lost his arm, or if that is a permanent bionic improvement.

Seeing the SN band together is pretty neat. I wonder which Yonkou they want to go after.
I want to say Kaidou, because for some reason Big Mom would make it too much of a "convenient" coincidence for Luffy (who has to face her eventually). But then again, it wasn't stated that the team up would be happening immediately in the near future did it - it could time up to work out with the future Big Mom/Candy Island arc.
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Old 2012-08-15, 16:28   Link #56
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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So the supernovas have to resort to an alliance to take down an emperor, and yet for some strange reason the SHs are more than capable of pulling off such a feat by themselves. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense .
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Old 2012-08-15, 17:42   Link #57
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And we already went over the reasons for Luffy's training before: It was so he'd be strong enough to survive in the New World, not strong enough to conquer it. There's a HUGE difference. Going to war against an emperor right now without proper preparation would basically be like going through Marineford all over again. It's better that he makes as many strong allies as he can so he actually does stand the slightest chance against the NW's rulers.....
I think Luffy's training is more on the lines of surviving the New World given his reckless nature.

Though I remember seeing an image of Luffy reading a newspaper after his 2 year training session that said Blackbeard had found One Piece and had become Pirate King.
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Old 2012-08-15, 18:39   Link #58
grey_1960
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Grey, I just want you to answer me this one question: If going to war against an emperor were really as simple as you apparently think it is, would you mind explaining exactly why we're seeing the supernovas seeking alliances with each other? Don't you think that they themselves would already be emperors by now if they were really THAT badass by themselves to begin with? Because this whole alliance thing kind of defeats your argument, I think.


And we already went over the reasons for Luffy's training before: It was so he'd be strong enough to survive in the New World, not strong enough to conquer it. There's a HUGE difference. Going to war against an emperor right now without proper preparation would basically be like going through Marineford all over again. It's better that he makes as many strong allies as he can so he actually does stand the slightest chance against the NW's rulers.....
MarvelB
Answer to your question is common interest or common enemy. Alliances don't always mean they are weak. You can still be strong player and have common interest or a common enemy. Look at White Beard and Shanks they work well together. Shanks intercepted Kaido so White Beard could go save his son. The Marines are always afraid when two Yonkous get together and talk.

Question for you, do you think all supernovas are created equal? What is the alliance between Appo, Hawkins, and Kidd about? Do you know which Yonkou Luffy and Law are gunning for? Luffy declared war on Big Mamma over candy dispute and Black Beard brought Ace to the gallows. Luffy is being aired on television to all pirates and shady people. So Big Mamma could has a chance to make an appearance in this arch or the next.

Your advice for Luffy about going to war with Yonkous is a little to late. He already declared war on Big Mamma. What will you say if Luffy and Law are going after Black Beard? That will mean Luffy will be taking on two Yonkous. Big Mamma and Black Beard.

Has for strength. I think he can take on an Admiral. Can he win, I doubt it. But will he lose I don't think so. Luffy and the Straw hats are ready. Has for training you never train to survive you train to win.
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Old 2012-08-15, 21:16   Link #59
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I've waited for this! alliance between 3 great pirates.... the gathering of Strawhat crews.... and Law-Smoker-Luffy combi with Robin-Tashigi in their back....

counter attack time!
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Old 2012-08-16, 01:28   Link #60
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So how is Luffy going to fight Ceaser? By holding in a lot of air?

I just read the manga after a two month break, Was a lot of fun.
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