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Old 2012-08-15, 12:04   Link #10281
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
@ Sol Falling Interesting how you juxtaposed the endings of the Treasure hunt and the Jet Black Wedding arcs. Guess Medaka is still kinda the same
I think that this made me angrier than anything else in this manga ever has.
It's like... if she's still going to behave exactly like this, even after she kissed him, and ever after Zenkichi fought for forty-two chapters to never have that kind of ending again... what the fuck was the point of everything he's done?
I feel used.
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Old 2012-08-15, 12:08   Link #10282
Guernsey
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Originally Posted by Sean Gaffney View Post
In any case, I now return you to "this manga has been awful for the last 60 chapters, join me next week when I read it avidly and declare it awful again" folks.
I am one of those people, I wanted to drop the amng but I wanted to see how it ends. Unfortuantely, it may not be possible some time soon but I want to see it end, damn it!!!!
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Old 2012-08-15, 12:26   Link #10283
Last Carpet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think that this made me angrier than anything else in this manga ever has.
It's like... if she's still going to behave exactly like this, even after she kissed him, and ever after Zenkichi fought for forty-two chapters to never have that kind of ending again... what the fuck was the point of everything he's done?
I feel used.
Losing to Zenkichi may have helped her to understand the meaning, and value of failure. But I'm pretty sure that Medaka's complete lack of empathy is meant to be her main flaw.

Will Nisio do something to help her try and fix that?
Who knows?
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:06   Link #10284
Nvis
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Dammit, I want to know more about Yuzuriha!

I hope the surprise Medaka's father left for her.........are....ALL SUITORS IN SAME SCHOOL!
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:34   Link #10285
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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The more I think about this chapter the angrier I get. This really is something.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:46   Link #10286
Antiscian
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Paraphrasing off elsewhere:
"The parallel here actually shows growth because Medaka's saying the same thing, but the connotation is completely different. Medaka knows very well how important Zen was this arc (you could see how happy she was when she learnt he was looking for her), so this time she says it as a joke, knowing that Zenkichi is confident enough in himself to laugh with her. And he does, because they're close enough to make jabs at each other. The direct callback shows how much they're grown since then, more than anything else."
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Old 2012-08-15, 16:29   Link #10287
summers
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Medaka is a mind beast too huh. I cant believe I am saying this but I did not like Kumgawa this chapter, he was talking for the sake of talking, he did not say anything that the others could not say. If he is going to open his mouth he better be pissing somebody off or failing. Like a proper troll.
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Old 2012-08-15, 16:57   Link #10288
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
elsewhere
Heh.
Yeah, I don't feel as though that came across well, but really this arc was generally pretty rushed.
I hope the next one is much better.
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Old 2012-08-15, 18:29   Link #10289
17Sevens
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Originally Posted by summers View Post
Medaka is a mind beast too huh. I cant believe I am saying this but I did not like Kumgawa this chapter, he was talking for the sake of talking, he did not say anything that the others could not say. If he is going to open his mouth he better be pissing somebody off or failing. Like a proper troll.
What about egging Torai's girl-crush? Sounds Kumagawaish.
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Old 2012-08-15, 19:39   Link #10290
Wolfenstein
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Wow.

Just, wow. Absolutely atrocious.

Really goes to show how the past arc meant nothing at all, huh? Yet another instance where Kaisos has managed to speak my mind.

And did Torai just say that Medaka's her favorite prez with a blush? Ok, that's kind of funny. And cool.

But other than that...
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Old 2012-08-15, 21:43   Link #10291
Sol Falling
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lol. I don't really know why people still bother being Zenkichi fans. It's not as if Nishio hasn't made obvious this won't be a standard "wish-fulfillment" shounen story. Ideals like "work hard, you'll reach your dreams someday" are cheap. If Nishio already blatantly criticized most shounen stories as being power fantasies (i.e. 'be the main character, have the best bullshit power, and you get to win'), then it should be obvious that he will never let the male self-insert character (Zenkichi) be in that position.

You don't get to think "wow, Zenkichi is so awesome, I wish I could be like him". You get to think "poor Zenkichi, he'll never get a break/has no natural talent, I am like him". And that's how he'll stay.

(On the other hand, it's not like Nishio really manages to escape from shallow wish-fulfillment fantasy. The entire issue of Medaka being in love with Zenkichi cheapens the whole thing. Her 'single weakness/dependency' in the form of Zenkichi turns her into a caricature. You can't respect her as a self-determining human being.)

The above is false, somewhat. Medaka's weakness prevents her from being a wish-fulfillment fantasy. Nonetheless, her position/role in the story vis-a-vis Zenkichi inherently makes any uncomplicated romance between them a cheapening of the narrative.

Zenkichi's acceptance of his non-"special" role and ordinariness is vital to his character. It's the entire premise of his "Devil Style". With regards to the parallel lines which I posted (also, for the record, I didn't actually make that picture; I also stole it from "somewhere" :P), you should actually be respecting this aspect of Zenkichi's character growth and maturation. Medaka was right in both cases to tell Zenkichi to get over it, because caring for someone does not equate to coddling them for their failures. Rather, it is only because Zenkichi does not expect coddling from Medaka that he can even begin at present to think about being worthy of being in a romance with her.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-08-15, 22:31   Link #10292
Guernsey
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The only weakness Medaka has is that she is not powerful enough.
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Old 2012-08-15, 22:45   Link #10293
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Ideals like "work hard, you'll reach your dreams someday" are cheap.
I don't agree at all, and, in fact, given how the manga has treated "talented" characters up to this point I thought it was above shitting over people who actually put effort into things.
Hell, at the end of the last arc, Zenkichi DID achieve his dreams by working hard, or at least we were led to believe that he did.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka was right in both cases to tell Zenkichi to get over it
Really? I feel as though she has no empathy for other human beings whatsoever. It's why I want her taken down a peg, but of course that will never happen. It's been frustrating for a very long time.
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Old 2012-08-15, 22:53   Link #10294
Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. I don't really know why people still bother being Zenkichi fans. It's not as if Nishio hasn't made obvious this won't be a standard "wish-fulfillment" shounen story. Ideals like "work hard, you'll reach your dreams someday" are cheap. If Nishio already blatantly criticized most shounen stories as being power fantasies (i.e. 'be the main character, have the best bullshit power, and you get to win'), then it should be obvious that he will never let the male self-insert character (Zenkichi) be in that position.

You don't get to think "wow, Zenkichi is so awesome, I wish I could be like him". You get to think "poor Zenkichi, he'll never get a break/has no natural talent, I am like him". And that's how he'll stay.
In other words, it is Nishio's way saying that compared to these awesome characters, the reader really does suck?
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Old 2012-08-15, 22:54   Link #10295
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
In other words, it is Nishio's way saying that compared to these awesome characters, the reader really does suck?
Given his other works, I don't think that's the message at all, personally.
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Old 2012-08-15, 23:46   Link #10296
Thth
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Really? I feel as though she has no empathy for other human beings whatsoever. It's why I want her taken down a peg, but of course that will never happen. It's been frustrating for a very long time.
That part of her personality is probably tied up with her abnormality and probably the Kurokami blood too, her origins. It is probably a plot point which may very well be explored in the coming arc. One way or the other any change in that aspect will probably involve "THE END" as well as her origins.

It was also method to keep those stuck with this manga from chapter 1 for Medaka X Zenkichi hooked. If everything between them is resolved that crowd may very well drop the manga. Not everyone is here for the meta commentary afterall...
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Old 2012-08-16, 00:04   Link #10297
DawnEmperor
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Well, the work can be interpreted however. I personally just see it as Medaka and Zenkichi having banter. I don't really understand where Sol is getting these overarching sentiments though.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:06   Link #10298
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't agree at all, and, in fact, given how the manga has treated "talented" characters up to this point I thought it was above shitting over people who actually put effort into things.
Hell, at the end of the last arc, Zenkichi DID achieve his dreams by working hard, or at least we were led to believe that he did.
It's not that the manga's "shitting" over people who put effort into things, but it's just presenting an honest picture of reality. "Talentless" people make up 99.99999% of people on earth, you'll never actually find the sort of "absolute" geniuses Nishio writes about in reality. However, the plain truth is that people are different, and some fortunate individuals will receive talents and opportunities other people could never even hope to grasp at.

The real point is that it's not a question of "if I put in the effort, will my dreams come true?". It's an ultimatum of "if I don't put in the effort, I will never amount to anything". That is the reality for talentless people. Even with all your effort, it might still be the reality that your dreams are 100% impossible. Compared to the geniuses who seem to effortlessly achieve countless things you could never even hope to, that might seem like a cruel reality. However, despite that, it still comes down to the talentless to fight and struggle. Because they are talentless, it is not their dreams, but only their effort itself which makes their life meaningful.

To tell a talentless person that they can achieve their dream just so long as they try hard is a lie. It is irresponsible, it is a delusion, it is self-convenience. However, to tell a talentless person to fight--in fact, that is the only meaningful thing that you can do.

The end of the previous arc did not really show Zenkichi achieving anything. Even the feat of "defeating Medaka" could hardly be called something Zenkichi really wanted to do or tried hard for. What the previous arc actually did was show Zenkichi's will to fight despite all the hopelessness of being talentless/not "special"/incredibly far from Medaka--his will to let his effort be the only thing upon which he stands. That was Devil Style, Zenkichi's rejection/negation of the "Main Character". Truthfully, Zenkichi has no actual idea whether he will ever actually win, whether his effort will amount to anything; what Zenkichi's gamble symbolizes, really, is only some level of faith in the meaning of his effort and struggle in the universe.

Quote:
Really? I feel as though she has no empathy for other human beings whatsoever. It's why I want her taken down a peg, but of course that will never happen. It's been frustrating for a very long time.
Empathy as a mental/emotional phenomenon is in part simply our own delusional imagination. By its inherent nature empathy involves a degree of projection--of imposing our supposed understanding of other people's feelings onto their actual experiences. At the very start of the story, Medaka had a habit of imagining other people's circumstances as a rational exercise in explaining their misbehaviour (her "Elevated Theory of Inherent Human Goodness"). In the standard sense of what people mean by "showing empathy", that is an exact example of Medaka demonstrating "empathic" behaviour.

The real point is, empathy itself is merely a moral input. The action which results is dependent on numerous other factors, which might override explicit empathy. For example, under Friedrich Nietzsche's thinking the common association of the "correct" moral response to someone else's suffering (i.e. Zenkichi's failure) being "pity" is a component of a morality system known as "slave" morality, which emphasizes the resentment of the inferior/less fortunate people (i.e. slaves) towards their superiors. Under the opposing morality, the "master" morality of superiors emphasizing self-determination and the instinctual, life-sustaining "will to power", the correct moral response to another person's suffering is cruel indifference. This is because the greatest offense to any person living by the principles of master morality is to have their pride/self-determination trampled upon by the pity of another. As you can see, both moralities are motivated by empathy.

So that is to say, you can't really judge whether or not Medaka has "empathy" just by looking at her actions. As for myself, I am fairly confident that at that point in the manga Medaka did understand Zenkichi's feelings. You have to understand, however, that even despite understanding Zenkichi's feelings, there are many legitimate reasons for why it might've been correct for Medaka to say what she did as opposed to comforting Zenkichi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
In other words, it is Nishio's way saying that compared to these awesome characters, the reader really does suck?
A clear part of Nishio's writing itself is to show how he is talented far beyond other people, in the realm of genius. That's why he pulls stunts like writing the second volume of Zaregoto in 3 days; putting one volume of Katanagatari out every month for an entire year; filling six consecutive pages of Medaka Box each with 100 unique, specific abilities; or writing three entire chapters of dialogue without the syllables U, SA, or N without people noticing, etc. You get the idea, although these examples barely even scratch the surface, really (there's also stuff like Nishio's ridiculously detailed backgrounds of characters he throws away in an instant; his endless stream of wordplay in character names and dialogue; his tendency for ridiculously convoluted and mindblowing reveals and mysteries. Basically you could say that an extremely large part of Nishio's entire writing style and body of work serves the function of showing off how smart he is.).

Rather than between Nishio's endless Mary Sues and the readers, accordingly, it'd be more accurate to say that the dialogue is actually between Nishio and his readers themselves. However, it's obvious that Nishio's intention isn't just to say "hey, I'm better than you", either (in the first place, no one would actually buy or enjoy that sort of book/story if that were the entire content, anyway). As a matter of fact, Nishio's protagonists themselves often are far in the shadow of alternative "perfect" characters in his stories, whether being self-loathing failures, inhuman sociopaths, incomplete "weapons", or talentless teenagers. In fact, the true purpose of the presence of "genius" or "genius characters" in Nishio's stories is merely to highlight that prior described reality, to force people into understanding of that distance between our own small worlds and the vastness of reality, i.e. true talent and genius. The real subtance of Nishio's stories themselves is not merely in the existence of genius characters, but how his protagonists, living in a world influenced by or aware of those geniuses, proceed in the face of that.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-08-16 at 05:39.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:24   Link #10299
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Age: 24
Okay. I'm not going to read all of that, so I suppose you win whatever argument we were going to have.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:32   Link #10300
Sol Falling
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Not really an argument, a discussion about the themes of Nishio's works in general. Well, feel free to skip it if that is your preference.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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