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Old 2012-08-15, 15:14   Link #461
cyth
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When Mutta headbutted his boss, it was his integrity that pulled through. Luck played a role when Hoshika decided to investigate that, but when it came to the exam, it was Mutta's qualities and ability that played the major role. I guess we could take his trip to the States as consequence of nepotism, but honestly it didn't work in his favor all that much. I'd even venture to say that his relationship with Hibito worked against him, as clearly demonstrated by Nitta's prejudice.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:14   Link #462
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Maybe you have to be of a certain age to recognize the pathos in this situation, but the guy is a poster child for regret and self-doubt.
Besides not being a guy, having a younger brother, and wanting to be an astronaut my life pretty much mirrored Mutta. Okay I was never fired either but unemployed for close to 3 years and only found a job in the past year.

Part of the reason I love this series so much is I can identify with it.

However I don't think being fired, unemployed living with your parents, or in general having bad luck are character flaws. They are unfortunate life situations which a lot of people are finding themselves in these days. Heck Mutta only get fired because he defended Hibito and his boss was a jerk.

But let's not forget that these circumstances Mutta were in during the very early parts of the story.

Quote:
The fact that he's getting a second chance is a major basis for the story -
I am not arguing with that.

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and let's not also forget that in several instances, his "success" has quite plainly been due to luck (which has historically not been his friend, also a major theme).
In some cases yes but in many other cases Mutta is shown to be a bit special. The examiners pay extra attention to him and he often comes up with the answers to the group's problems in this latest arc.

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is too perfect or an author insert
I actually changed it to "audience insert" but I didn't mean it as something negative. Hence why I specifically clarified that I don't consider Mutta a marty stu. I am not really sure what word to use besides "audience insert" though.

He is however a character the audience is definitely supposed to identify with. This is not necessarily a bad thing. As I said above many people are down on their luck these days and Mutta in an inspiring character.

But as the story ultimately calls for Mutta to succeed this does make him come off a bit too perfect to me at times or at least better than the other characters in the story. Sorry that's just how I see it.


edit: Also for the person who neg repped me. I am not even sure what you mean by "tv tropes terms" but I am very sorry my own vocabulary does not meet your requirements.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:56   Link #463
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Also for the person who neg repped me. I am not even sure what you mean by "tv tropes terms" but I am very sorry my own vocabulary does not meet your requirements.
Don't sweat it. Some people here neg rep for anything. I hardly see the point of the rep system anymore really.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
In some cases yes but in many other cases Mutta is shown to be special. The examiners pay extra attention to him and he often comes up with the answers to the group's problems in this latest arc.
Of course he's special, but he's not the only one. Look at that guy in group B who ended up being some sort of superman in disguise. We notice Mutta more because he has more screen time, but he's not the only one with a card or two up his sleeve.

And yeah, Mutta often comes up with the answers to the problems. But like Enzo said this is mostly due to luck. It was luck that he learned about the green card thing when he visited Hibito, and it was also luck that Sharon has shared so much of her wisdom with him.

He has talent of course, like his attention to detail and concentration, but the series makes it a point that this alone wouldn't be enough to succeed.
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Old 2012-08-15, 17:54   Link #464
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
We notice Mutta more because he has more screen time, but he's not the only one with a card or two up his sleeve.
You are right and I think my issue with Mutta is actually an issue with many a main character. Perhaps it is as you say it's not that Mutta is "better than everyone else" it just so much focus is on him that it comes off that way.

But I don't want my criticism to come off the wrong way. I love the series & Mutta. Even with these issues I still think Space Brothers is better than 99% of what is out there.
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Old 2012-08-15, 19:05   Link #465
Soliloquy
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I'm still not convinced that Mutta's low self-esteem really a flaw but I guess it is, since he is working in a competitive environment. However what sets his character apart from the other characters, I think he is the one of the few characters working against the social expectation. The reason he is fired from the job and living in his parents' house in his early 30 is something he brought on himself. He just did what most people wouldn't risk doing.

If the other characters were in Mutta's situation when the boss started badmouthing their own families, I think most characters would really think of the consequence and probably grin and bear it. What Mutta did would most likely be registered as a flaw but to me it's very rare and good quality. He would defend the honour of his loved ones even if it means he will definitely lose his job. Not many characters would not dare to headbutt his own boss though I guess Kenji would probably come back with some subtle jabs.

And don't get me wrong, I like Mutta, too but I was thinking of all the anime I watched, there hasn't been a male character more charming and just naturally balanced than this guy, even Okabe Rintarou had a number of visible flaws. So far everything Mutta does, he was in a right place at the right time. It is also quite ironic that Kenji whom Mutta seemed to show some jealousy towards is having a hard time because of Misoguchi. Even though Kenji doesn't get much screen time as the main character does, he gets a supple development to know what his strength and flaws are.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:30   Link #466
Irenicus
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IMO you two are reacting this way because he's just too charming.

And that's a good thing!

I'm serious. Mutta is an extremely lovable character; just about everybody in the audience identifies with him completely, including, I think, both of you. It is a possibility that, perhaps, you are mistaking his charm as a lack of flaws or struggle on his part. He's basically a living (?) testament to the "funny guys are popular" statement after all.

I don't think he is completely balanced and/or perfect. A perfect character is a Mary Sue character, an archetype that is disliked nearly by instinct -- though he certainly has a Mary Sue's luck, he isn't one of them.

He started this show down in the dumps with a massive inferiority complex, his self-esteem issue never really went away, and he's still the butt monkey of more than half the show's jokes. We also have to remember that at this point in the story, the remaining candidates are highly qualified, driven individuals, including Mutta, and luck is just about the only thing that distinguishes them. Naturally, the main character is going to have some luck coming his way; it's just karma compensating his previous bad lucks anyway (lol).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirararim
But as the story ultimately calls for Mutta to succeed this does make him come off a bit too perfect to me at times or at least better than the other characters in the story. Sorry that's just how I see it.
I see that you felt a bit put off by the aura of "inevitability" of Mutta's eventual success at becoming an astronaut. However, I would argue that it is a feature one just has to accept and not a bug. Setbacks are always possible, crises and problems must be overcome, but a career-killing failure would have been in bad taste and completely destroy the story's momentum. Despite its remarkable realism, Uchuu Kyoudai is still a classic kind of inspirational storytelling: a man, a dream, and the Final Frontier.

____________

Speaking of which, I think love this show, I think I do. Say you love it too~

P.S. I could totally see Group A steal their own Millenium Falcon and start a grand space adventure by themselves (+ maybe Kenji and Hibito and Apo in place of a robot). They already have Star Wars ringtones ready! Alas, they're living in 202X Earth, not a galaxy far, far away.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:44   Link #467
cyth
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Well, it's not like Mutta comes directly out of the mold of perfect characters, such as Tokuchi Toua from One Outs, where we get to enjoy in his empathic intellect without any explanation why it is so. Mutta has his childhood flashbacks to back him up. The flashbacks are important because they illustrate just what kind of a child he was (curious, different, and competitive by nature) and what kind of support he received (Sharon, visiting JAXA etc.). I mean, you look at his past and you can't really argue why he turned out the way he did. The show made Mutta's skill set believable. He has to succeed to a certain degree, that much the audience expects from him, but it's not like he wasn't an underdog compared to other candidates at the beginning. His odds just got better as he cleared exams, that's why maybe there's an illusion of him being too perfect now. As Irenicus says, the score between candidates is still pretty fucking close.
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:44   Link #468
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
IMO you two are reacting this way because he's just too charming.
Ha Ha maybe you are right.


Quote:
I'm serious. Mutta is an extremely lovable character; just about everybody in the audience identifies with him completely, including, I think, both of you.
You are right, when I called Mutta an audience insert, a character the audience identifies I meant myself as well. And I thought the author probably identified with Mutta too hence why I initially called him an author insert. I know those can often have negative connotations but I didn't mean them that way.



Quote:
I don't think he is completely balanced and/or perfect. A perfect character is a Mary Sue character, an archetype that is disliked nearly by instinct -- though he certainly has a Mary Sue's luck, he isn't one of them.
I think I said he comes off a little too perfect at times or comes off better than the other characters in the end. He is the one after all who pretty much solved all of Group's A issues (even if much of it was down to luck).

I 100% don't think he is a Mary Sue and I hoped I clarified that in previous posts. I ultimately do think he is a great character.

Quote:
I see that you felt a bit put off by the aura of "inevitability" of Mutta's eventual success at becoming an astronaut. However, I would argue that it is a feature one just has to accept and not a bug. Setbacks are always possible, crises and problems must be overcome, but a career-killing failure would have been in bad taste and completely destroy the story's momentum. Despite its remarkable realism, Uchuu Kyoudai is still a classic kind of inspirational storytelling: a man, a dream, and the Final Frontier.
You are right it's a long story and there might be set backs. I don't have an issue with Mutta becoming an astronaut, of course I want him too. But because the story calls for him to succeed it comes off at times to me that he is better than the other characters, when he finds the answers no one else does. Of course I think it is also just part of being the main character.

And yeah Mutta definitely has quirks and is a bit neurotic. These things can be seen as flaws but I think they are also Mutta's strengths, making him more unique.

It is the same with Mutta being the butt monkey of the jokes, the initial impression of him might not always be favorable but he always grows on people in the end.

Although Cyth is correct too that the reason Mutta succeeds is always explained and I do appreciate that.
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Old 2012-08-16, 12:15   Link #469
Guardian Enzo
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Mutta basically has two remarkable things about him. First, he genuinely likes people - genuinely, which is a rare thing - and wants everyone to get along. And B, he has an incredible attention to detail - which is both his greatest strength and at times his greatest liability.

So for me, the two charges leveled against him - inevitability and perfection - just don't hold up. Yes, we know he's going to be an astronaut - because he's the MC and that's the premise. Do we hold it against Gorou that's he's going to make the major leagues? Do we hold it against Inuyasha that he's eventually going to defeat Naraku?

And as to perfection, I think the evidence being used against Mutta is based on his one great strength, his attention to detail. It's not as if he's preternaturally strong or fast or attractive - he just has this one kernel of genius, which drives him crazy as often as it helps him.

Yes, Mutta is definitely lovable - one of the most likable characters in ages (and Hirata-san's performance is no small factor). But he's just an insecure, really bright guy and a bit of a geek, that really likes people and wants everyone to be happy.
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Old 2012-08-16, 14:09   Link #470
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
So for me, the two charges leveled against him - inevitability and perfection - just don't hold up. Yes, we know he's going to be an astronaut - because he's the MC and that's the premise. Do we hold it against Gorou that's he's going to make the major leagues? Do we hold it against Inuyasha that he's eventually going to defeat Naraku?
I think you are missing my point. I don't hold it against Mutta that he will eventually become an astronaut as I already said. I understand Mutta fulfilling his dream is part of the story.

However because he is our protagonist the story sets him up to be better than the other candidates so he can ultimately succeed. That might not actually be the case, but when in the end the person who pretty much solved all of Team A's issues is Mutta then this is how it comes off to me. Yes I understand Mutta was able to do all that because of being in the right place at the right time, his own childhood experiences, etc but it was still pretty much all Mutta that drove Team A's success.

Hence why I said he comes off perfect at times, not that he is perfect (although maybe perfect was not the best word to use). It sounds to me like people keep defending Mutta of being a Mary Sue or a badly written character, neither of which I think.
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Old 2012-08-16, 17:37   Link #471
cyth
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That's a tough question whether Team A would be worse off without Mutta. Aside from Yasushi, everyone else kept their cool. It's just that the story was mostly narrated through Mutta's experiences, who knows what kind of mind schemes everyone else had on their mind? In the end, it became clear even Loud Mouth Yasushi was trying to deal with all the stress of picking two candidates on his own.

While I'm on this subject, I think one of my criticisms for this arc has to be that they significantly dumbed down Serika. Needlessly too.
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Old 2012-08-16, 18:56   Link #472
SeijiSensei
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While I'm on this subject, I think one of my criticisms for this arc has to be that they significantly dumbed down Serika. Needlessly too.
That's bothered me, too. Sometimes it feels like she's more of a comic relief character (all that business about eating and her growling stomach in particular) which doesn't fit with what we know about her professional career.
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Old 2012-08-16, 19:17   Link #473
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That's bothered me, too. Sometimes it feels like she's more of a comic relief character (all that business about eating and her growling stomach in particular) which doesn't fit with what we know about her professional career.
I've been fine with it honestly. If anything I think it makes her seem more down to earth rather than being the "sit there and be cute" kind of heroine I was expecting her to be. I find it interesting that she has her own quirks.
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Old 2012-08-16, 20:21   Link #474
GDiddy
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I"m fine with Serika as well. I don't think she got dumbed down at all!

YAY WE FINALLY GET TO SEE WHO THEY PICKED THIS COMING WEEK!!
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Old 2012-08-16, 21:56   Link #475
Rahan
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Just found The Right Stuff on catch-up TV. (still available till the end of the week to the subscribers of Canalsat cinema channels if other frenchies are interested)

That was amazing, yet too long. (They could have done a movie for Yeager and one for the Mercury 7 I think. I understand both of those plotlines showcase men with the "Right Stuff", but the plotlines are not entwined enough)

Anyways, to stay on topic, Space Brother's breathing test was taken litterally from the movie (reading that here renewed my interest in a movie that was in my "must watch" list for years) but was there other scenes / tributes ?
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Old 2012-08-17, 08:08   Link #476
SeijiSensei
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What did Serika contribute to the test? She put herself in charge of the food and didn't manage it very well. Her professional skills were never on display either. There could have been an episode where one of her fellow candidates had a medical problem that she could resolve. She was a much more compelling character in the first round of testing than she has been during this last sequence.
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Old 2012-08-17, 08:42   Link #477
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What did Serika contribute to the test? She put herself in charge of the food and didn't manage it very well. Her professional skills were never on display either. There could have been an episode where one of her fellow candidates had a medical problem that she could resolve. She was a much more compelling character in the first round of testing than she has been during this last sequence.
That's not really fair, we didn't see much of anyone contributing in this test. There was never really any need for teamwork in any of the tasks assigned, so there was never even any chance for anyone to show off their abilities more so than the others. Honestly, i think just being yourself and getting along with everyone else, and not starting any trouble is enough of a contribution, and Team B with Makabe and that asshole is a perfect contrast.
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Old 2012-08-17, 17:17   Link #478
Doria
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Actually, I think we see a lot of various Team A members contributing; it's simply that--as everyone else has already said more eloquently--the story is told via first- and third-person sympathetic narration techniques, so naturally, we know Mutta better than everyone else.

Serika often has the exact same instincts that Mutta does, and she has the luxury of not having to put herself on the line because he's there. But that doesn't mean she isn't recognizing and assessing the same problems--and coming up with the same solutions--that he is.

Furuya himself solved the problem with tension that arose after he accidentally broke the glasses. And he did it in a humble, self-effacing way. I don't think he's a character who either was likeably unlikeable or suddenly became sympathetic. I think he's been likeable and interesting all along. In fact, the latest stuff with his correspondence with the professor is (just personally speaking) the least interesting material we've gotten about him, despite giving ostensible background.

Nitta remained an enigma, but in a good way. And his thawing toward the group from his very early near-paranoia (specifically regarding the bio-response bracelets) to someone who quickly agrees with what might seem like a crazy plan because it is, for their group, the rational choice, is subtle and nuanced.

Fukuda didn't do so much, but his friendship with Furuya helped that character to grow, and his calm, dignified approach grounded the team and provided a useful counterpoint to Mutta's (or Furuya's, for that matter) semi-spastic leadership.

So I don't think that we can really say it's just Mutta doing everything for his group. I think that he was (again) lucky to get a group that he could work with, but that he also went out of his way to help people bond because, as GE mentioned, he does like people. And it isn't that he wants them to get along out of a neurotic fear of conflict, but because I think he wants to have fun and as part of that, wants others to have fun along with him (represented by his early loneliness about his hobby).

Last edited by Doria; 2012-08-17 at 17:21. Reason: typo-palooza
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Old 2012-08-18, 23:25   Link #479
Aesthetic Shampoo
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They didn't tell us who got chosen, what a tease.
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Old 2012-08-19, 00:21   Link #480
FlareKnight
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They didn't tell us who got chosen, what a tease.
Well they mostly did. Know that Furuya and Mutta didn't for sure. That just leaves one more person out of the three. Also a confirm on Kenji not making it out of his group.

Surprised though that the picking of the ones who passed had this level of effect on the result. I mean they could just add as many as they want after, but those guys at least get a chance to go further.

Spoiler for Ep22 Preview:
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