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Old 2012-08-15, 12:17   Link #121
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
In chapter 568 we see real Madara genjutsuing the 9 tails and his sharingan is normal and strained as well...but we definitely know he has the mangekyou. It doesn't need to activated to control the kyuubi...if you have the MS you can control the 9tails as mentioned in the manga...thus obitos right eye LIKELY uses MS power because 1)we see kakashi MS for the same technique and 2)obito eye was used to control the 9tails as u mentioned...
The argument was not if Tobi has the MS, he has even the rinnegan so he obviously has the MS and EMS too. It was about the quesion: does he need to activate his MS/EMS in order to do kamui or for example control the kyuubi. And i think he doesn't need it, which indicates that by having the body made of copied cells from the 1st hokage he he has become a lesser/weaker version of the sage of 6 paths.
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Old 2012-08-15, 12:30   Link #122
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The argument was not if Tobi has the MS, he has even the rinnegan so he obviously has the MS and EMS too. It was about the quesion: does he need to activate his MS/EMS in order to do kamui or for example control the kyuubi. And i think he doesn't need it, which indicates that by having the body made of copied cells from the 1st hokage he he has become a lesser/weaker version of the sage of 6 paths.
???? tobi acquired the rinnegan from dead nagato and replaced it with a sharingan that he lost due to using izanagi...that does not equal him having EMS in my opinion. if you feel he has MS, why wouldnt he be using it for kamui when we have seen that kakashi does? either way we will learn soon enough...thanks for the discussion!
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Old 2012-08-15, 12:46   Link #123
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I still find it confusing that people call Tobi's jutsu "Kamui". Especially since we already know a jutsu named "Kamui". Referring to two jutsu with the same name is... confusing. Just because they follow the same principle doesn't really justify giving them the same name.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:42   Link #124
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
???? tobi acquired the rinnegan from dead nagato and replaced it with a sharingan that he lost due to using izanagi...that does not equal him having EMS in my opinion. if you feel he has MS, why wouldnt he be using it for kamui when we have seen that kakashi does? either way we will learn soon enough...thanks for the discussion!
Remember that Madara said that he achieved rinnegan before he died. He also talked about the boy Nagato. Then Tobi tells to Konan that those were his eyes. It's obvious for me that those were Madara's EMS eyes (which were originally Izuna's eyes so if Tobi is Izuna then he didn't really lie to Konan) that have been evolved by Madara into a rinnegan. Which means Tobi has Madara's eyes now. Of course it might be that Tobi cannot switch them back to EMS, just like Kakashi is not able to switch off Obito's sharingan eyes so he has to cover them.

Tobi has also Obito's eyes, and my assumption is that he doesn't need to swtich to MS mode to use his version of kamui. And the reason he doesn't switch is because then he would consume more chakra and maybe even get damaged by overuse of MS jutsu. Conserving chakra is still important in battles, even Naruto switched back from kyuubi mode to normal state several times, and he also used simple rasengan in kyuubi mode instead of rasenshuriken. Why not using rasenshuriken all the time, the only reason can be to not waste chakra. Of course in case of Naruto it's usually not because he has some smart chakra amount management but because he runs out of chakra and has to switch back to weaker jutsu.
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Old 2012-08-15, 15:48   Link #125
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Ugh still all of these Rin speculations? I hate the idea of Tobi being an insane female cross-dresser/drag king, it's obviously a guy so just let him either be Kagami or someone else (Izuna?)
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Old 2012-08-15, 20:37   Link #126
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For anyone that has watched the XMen animated series cartoon of the early-mid 90's I'm getting a Morph vibe from Tobi. I'm leaning towards him being Obito, saved by Madara/Zetsu then royally mind fucked.
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Old 2012-08-15, 21:06   Link #127
Destined_Fate
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Age gap withstanding Tobi could easily be more than one person with someone replacing Tobi when Tobi got too old.

Obito is wearing a unisex garb, nothing says only men get to wear it. Also, Tobi never told anyone their gender. Everyone just assumed Tobi was a man.
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Old 2012-08-15, 21:34   Link #128
~Yami~
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woooo..... Obito... is that you???

well, there isn't enough clue right now... Maybe Obito's eye just got stolen from his corpse

anyway, Naruto and Kurama are pretty cool in the end
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Old 2012-08-16, 01:27   Link #129
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More Kakashi flashbacks soon please.
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:11   Link #130
itachi-san314
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i don't see the minato fight as evidence against obito theory. we know that tobi is partly zetsu's body, so I don't really see why him being the stature of an adult when he fought minato is a problem with obito theory. since zetsu rebuilt most of his body then why not just start out in adult form? it's not like his body was going to grow from then on, it was mostly destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Obito is wearing a unisex garb, nothing says only men get to wear it. Also, Tobi never told anyone their gender. Everyone just assumed Tobi was a man.
his voice(s) are male. we've also seen a semi-significant portion of his face which looks very male to me. it sure as poop ain't rin at least. not to mention that kishi's record of writing female characters suggests that tobi could not be female. back when we hardly knew any akatsuki members' IDs, kishi could have done anything as far as evil/twisted/cool female villains go and we only got 1 out of 10 and konan was basically a milktoast follower character. she did a couple interesting things, but nothing compared to the rest of akatsuki. he just doesn't write interesting women roles
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:32   Link #131
james0246
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Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
More Kakashi flashbacks soon please.
Why? Despite whatever is going on with Tobi, Kakashi is still essentially meaningless to the plot. His role is only as a measuring stick and exposition machine.
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Old 2012-08-16, 10:57   Link #132
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i don't see the minato fight as evidence against obito theory. we know that tobi is partly zetsu's body, so I don't really see why him being the stature of an adult when he fought minato is a problem with obito theory. since zetsu rebuilt most of his body then why not just start out in adult form? it's not like his body was going to grow from then on, it was mostly destroyed.

his voice(s) are male. we've also seen a semi-significant portion of his face which looks very male to me. it sure as poop ain't rin at least. not to mention that kishi's record of writing female characters suggests that tobi could not be female. back when we hardly knew any akatsuki members' IDs, kishi could have done anything as far as evil/twisted/cool female villains go and we only got 1 out of 10 and konan was basically a milktoast follower character. she did a couple interesting things, but nothing compared to the rest of akatsuki. he just doesn't write interesting women roles
Konan, while being pretty much one of two maybe three, is still a subversion. She was the only one so far who managed to put a dent into Tobi.
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Old 2012-08-16, 11:42   Link #133
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I disagree that naruto is like dbz and kakashi is like piccolo. Whats cool about naruto is that there are many factors other than I got my power level is over 9000 so I win.
All the kage level nin can basically hang with eachother (from the manga not from fan perspectives).

But that being said...
Kakashi should be one of the main characters who dies in this war. Pain arc was too early, but now his death would not only be timely and make this war significant, but the pre-death flashbacks would sum up the whole obito/rin stuff.

Btw what happened to that purple haired Anbu chick from part 1?
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Old 2012-08-16, 16:04   Link #134
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Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
Tobi = obito's father. He knew his sharingan was special so he tracked him until he could take it for himself. I think this will be potentially revealed via sasuke and orochimaru.

I think it's interesting that Tobias isn't a ba guy. If he was he would have killed kakashi a long time ago imo. And when you look back hoe many people has tobi actually killed?
The Anbu guarding the kyuubi,
A bunch of jinchuriki,
Konan, and Fu/torune (who tried to kill him first)

Idk it's just interesting (or convenient on kishi's part) that tobi would let kakashi keep that sharingan which is now shown to be the key to defeating him.
I'd be disappointed if it is someone who we haven't actually seen before. Obito and his family were probably descendants of Madara and thats why his eyes would be unique. Tobi killed the Uchiha Clan, a bunch of innocent people when he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
Yeah, since Obito is a good guy, we really can relate him to Nagato, Nagato was a good guy when he was a kid, then he became a bad guy when he met Tobi by a false Idealism.

Nagato did said something good before which is "Someday I will break the curse, If there's such a thing as peace I will find it"

so Obito can be a bad guy,

the only thing that's bothering that TObi is not Obito is because of the TObi vs. Minato fight and KOnan vs. TObi fight

In chapter 552... Itachi said something important to Naruto.. its in page 7-8.. he said
Spoiler for BIG:

"You start to forget about others, To be Arrogant and to be attached to your Ego,... ONE DAY YOU WILL BECOME JUST LIKE MADARA"


so If Naruto can become evil just like Madara, why not obito??
I dont see whats wrong with the Tobi, Konan fight. Tobi was good and Madara turned him bad. He trained him and gave him his powers, which made him able to control the kyuubi, fight the 4th.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-08-16 at 16:28. Reason: double post...
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Old 2012-08-16, 19:28   Link #135
Lunarskylar
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i reread a different translation of the chapter, and the way that tobi and kakashi are talking makes it sound like he's... obito

one particular line is: "i've told you not to open your mouth so easily! you've degraded into a man who's all talk and no action"

then after some more talking kakashi is shown having an emotional reaction, with gai being concerned about him. but then naruto jumps in...

so my first question is when has tobi told kakashi not to open his mouth before? i honestly can't recall... however, has obito ever done so? because i recall him and kakashi always arguing as kids, but the exact text and content is vague.

also, although it's just translation, why does tobi say he's "degraded" as if he was proud of what he was before and now he's something worse... sounds like obito talk

unfortunately.

edit:
so after rereading the kakashi gaiden, there are alot of lines that seem more like obito hints, considering tobi's speeches in this chapter

tobi tells kakashi not to open his mouth so easily, but ironically, obito was the one known as the big mouth who opened his mouth too easily, and minato told him he shouldn't do so.

also, after obito is crushed, when he gives kakashi his eye, he tells him "i can become your eye, and from now on i can see the future"
whether this is related to tobi's line about seeing reality is just up to interpretation i guess, but it would also be interesting if tobi could link himself to obito's eye and see what kakashi was doing, rinnegan style.

and finally, the same way that kishi drew half of kakashi's face and half of tobi's face mimics the way he constantly drew kakashi and obito's face, as shown in ch 243, page 16 the bottom panel, as well as earlier in ch 241, pg 17 bottom panel

these could all be straws that are being grasped at, because it would be no surprise for kishi to unintentionally mimic his previous work and content.
OR it could be clever foreshadowing if kishi had gone back and reread the gaiden in order to incorporate some of its elements into these chapters to imply that maybe tobi has more of obito in him than just his eye
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Last edited by Lunarskylar; 2012-08-16 at 19:57. Reason: reread the kakashi gaiden
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Old 2012-08-17, 04:25   Link #136
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I'm not sure but I think Tobi told Kakashi he opens his mouth too easily a couple of chapters ago, when Kakashi was giving tactics to Gai and Naruto.
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Old 2012-08-17, 05:53   Link #137
~Yami~
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I think Kishi will never let Obito to appear again....

If Tobi is Obito, then all of us will prefer to let Kakashi fight his past comrade rather than let Naruto to do it... which means Naruto will stay away from this final arc...
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Old 2012-08-17, 09:04   Link #138
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I say again: Tobi has knowledge of how Kakashi and Guy lived AFTER Obito died. Him knowing them proves nothing.
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Old 2012-08-17, 11:17   Link #139
itachi-san314
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I say again: Tobi has knowledge of how Kakashi and Guy lived AFTER Obito died. Him knowing them proves nothing.
what difference does it make whether it's before or after obito 'died'? tobi's knowledge of them can be explained either way. what i think is most interesting about tobi's knowledge of them is that he cares enough to mention it to them in the first place. someone like madara, izuna or one of the sons of the RS most likely wouldn't care enough about a couple random konoha jounins' personalities to even dignify their existence. just look at how madara treated the kages and they are much more important in the ninja world than kakashi and gai
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Old 2012-08-17, 14:43   Link #140
Kowai
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Originally Posted by ~Yami~ View Post
I think Kishi will never let Obito to appear again....

If Tobi is Obito, then all of us will prefer to let Kakashi fight his past comrade rather than let Naruto to do it... which means Naruto will stay away from this final arc...
Recent interview from Kishi says that this is not the climax/end of the story..
*Edit source: http://www.saiyanisland.com/2012/07/...urprises-left/
I agree that it feels like it is wrapping up but apparently Kishi has more in him? Lol
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