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Old 2012-08-16, 14:09   Link #30041
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Didn't Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa told her what happened to her? That she 'fell' from a cliff and was saved? [Ep 7 Teaparty] and didn't Ep 5 showed that she deemed Natsuhi responsible?
There's no evidence whatsoever that Nanjo Genji and Kumasawa told Yasu that Natsuhi pushed the maid and there's no logic that would make me assume they did or that they even had any basis to make such claim.

And even if EP5 seems to imply that Natsuhi was responsible it's literally impossible for Yasu to know even with moderate certainty that she really did. What we've seen can't be anything but a mere conjecture. Besides, Ep5 wasn't even written by Yasu so it's anyone's guess whose conjecture that was.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu let her drama grow out of proportions and her solution won't bring any gain for her (if Kyrie kills asumu and doesn't get caught she might get Rudolf... if Yasu kills everyone, herslef and Battler included she gets nothing).

After being told I've have to understand Yasu's heart, if PieceYasu's heart is this one (and Will talked with PieceYasu), well, it really wasn't worth the effort.
Well I'm with you on that one but look at the facts. Ryuukishi is telling us that her motive was "love". If you're trying to explain things with reasons for her to actually wanting those people dead you're clearly going in the wrong direction. The motive would turn into resentment or even vengeance which was outright stated to be not her reason.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except that might not be true. And the same was, I presumed based on the actual characterization, the case for Yasu. So that's why I was operating on the notion I could understand her and Kinzo, because I thought they may not have actually done the things that they were accused of doing.
I think it's irrelevant whether that's true or not or in which context tha's true or not, you're still supposed to be understading under the assumption that they did all of that.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I don't think you're supposed to approve what he did to Beato (if he did it as Ryukishi took care to raise the doubt it migh have been consensual) but to accept with years he felt sorry for it, he regretted it and tried to make up for it. He didn't stay completely evil forever and maybe he wasn't completely evil to begin with.

There's plenty of characters (the Innominato of the Betrothed) and real people that made something wrong and then redeemed themselves. Understanding Kinzo isn't excusing him for what he did but understanding the whole of him.

In short, Kinzo wasn't a complete monster though surely he did some things that are hard to forgive.
Forgivance however is up to Yasu and Ange as they were also at the receiving ends of his attempt to make up.
I never said that being "understanding" means to approve, I intend it the same way that you do. But if you think about it "repentance" and "remorse" aren't really necessary elements for reaching that "understanding" according to Ryuukishi.
There are of course a lot of better examples including other stuff written by Ryuukishi to make the reader understand what an evil guy did and why thus making you sympathize for him even if you don't approve.

My conclusion is that Ryuukishi tried to do the same for Yasu and failed. He never said before that people "don't understand".


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Umineko there's not the presence of a clear highly traumatic situation at which normal people might react with madness and that we could guess beforehand using Ep 1-4. If we use Ep 5-8 we can make speculations but again Umineko is so pretty vague that it's hard to pin the trauma and follow how it developed into 'let's kill everyone'.
Well you see this is exactly the problem. You, and I, and everyone that I know of, do not think there is a real traumatic situation that would lead Yasu to reach those nonsensical decisions, however apparently according to Ryuukishi it is more than enough. I quote him:

Quote:
Love can become a motive that has more power over you than life or death“, that is something which is pretty hard to explain to people without this experience. Most of them will think that it’s just „an overdone motive“. But for people who have known love and experienced how much it can make you suffer, they understand that love can turn your world upside down. If you are told „I will come for you again!“ and for 6 years there is nothing, it can make you go crazy, but people who have even slightly suffered due to love will say „those 6 years must have been hell“. But people who know nothing of that pain will probably wait for nothing less than a dramatic gadget to appear, like the heroic story of „at age X her mother and father were brutally murdered“.
See? He's outright stating that you're expecting something dramatic to explain Yasu's madness, when love alone (and the six years of waiting) should be enough for you to understand. And you know, he's right, right now all the other examples you've made were decidedly highly dramatic events.
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Old 2012-08-16, 14:13   Link #30042
Drifloon
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There's no evidence whatsoever that Nanjo Genji and Kumasawa told Yasu that Natsuhi pushed the maid and there's no logic that would make me assume they did or that they even had any basis to make such claim.
You sure about that? Beatrice in EP8 says that she hated Natsuhi when she first learned about her origins, so wouldn't that imply that she knew it wasn't just an accident? I mean, EP8 is the game that tries to paint everyone in the most positive light possible, so if there was any chance Natsuhi might not have meant to push Yasu off the cliff, I'd have thought BATTLER would have jumped on it.
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Old 2012-08-16, 14:26   Link #30043
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You sure about that? Beatrice in EP8 says that she hated Natsuhi when she first learned about her origins, so wouldn't that imply that she knew it wasn't just an accident? I mean, EP8 is the game that tries to paint everyone in the most positive light possible, so if there was any chance Natsuhi might not have meant to push Yasu off the cliff, I'd have thought BATTLER would have jumped on it.
And how exactly would she know?

The only way I can think of that could have made that possible is the case of Natsuhi having confessed the truth to Genji and in turn Genji reported that confession to Yasu. But according to what we've seen Natsuhi always denied any blame.

Lacking that you'd need to think someone among the three above witnessed Natsuhi pushing the maid, but that's really unlikely and absolutely never mentioned nor hinted.

What's left then? one of three lied by telling Yasu that they were sure Natsuhi pushed the maid even if they couldn't possibly be that sure?

In the end the simplest explanation is that Beatrice simply concluded that Natsuhi committed that crime even if she had no proof whatsover.
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Old 2012-08-16, 14:59   Link #30044
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think it's irrelevant whether that's true or not or in which context tha's true or not, you're still supposed to be understading under the assumption that they did all of that.
I don't know about you, but in my profession when facts are inconclusive to support claims we most certainly don't make the assumption that such claims are true. There isn't an ounce of evidence to support the factual contentions made about Kinzo and Yasu's supposed crimes. That doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I certainly wouldn't presume I'm supposed to believe they did such things and then forgive them anyway.

Kinzo may be forgivable if what he did really occurred, but only because he was sorry about it and tried to make amends for it. Yasu expresses no remorse and takes no steps to make amends (and in fact, if she was guilty, willfully committed to making Ange an orphan). She should not receive any forgiveness for crimes she will never have any opportunity to make restitution toward. Ange can only project remorse in her own mind, but believing your family's murderer was sorry and forgiving your mental image of her and your family's murderer actually being sorry are two entirely different things.
Quote:
I never said that being "understanding" means to approve, I intend it the same way that you do. But if you think about it "repentance" and "remorse" aren't really necessary elements for reaching that "understanding" according to Ryuukishi.
The distinction here is that Ryukishi appears to associate "understanding" with some level of condonement of a person's actions or at least acknowledgement of their motive. And that's crap on a cracker.

By merely examining facts I would be able to understand Yasu. You don't need love or any of that crap to comprehend a crime and intellectually grasp the reasoning presented for why it was done. It is only after that point that you reach the emotional stage of either sympathizing with the culprit or condemning them as behaving in a manner which is morally unacceptable. This is true whether you condemn or condone their actual actions.

People whose behavior in no way merits anything but condemnation should not expect any measure of sympathy or "understanding," in the way Ryukishi seems to frame it. Yet that clearly seems to be what Ryukishi wants us to do. He does not want us to say "Oh, so Yasu is the killer for the reasons you have stated? Very well then, everything she did was morally reprehensible and she is a terrible broken person with a warped sociopathic morality, and a coward besides who killed herself rather than face any consequence for her wholly selfish actions." I am absolutely certain that is not something he wants us to believe. That means he either thinks we must be sympathetic toward an utter sociopath - which is absurd - or he's trying to tell us that either the culprit wasn't a sociopath or Yasu wasn't that culprit.

To believe otherwise is basically to think he knows nothing about people in general.
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Old 2012-08-16, 15:47   Link #30045
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And even if EP5 seems to imply that Natsuhi was responsible it's literally impossible for Yasu to know even with moderate certainty that she really did. What we've seen can't be anything but a mere conjecture.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that a person believes another responsible for a crime and then it turns out he was wrong.
Ange is firmly sure it was Eva who killed her family when not even the police could prove Eva was the culprit.
We don't know which circumstancial evidence Yasu had that pushed her to believe Natsuhi was responsible in Ep 5 that's why it can't be dismissed as foolish to assume she believed Natsuhi was the culprit. If it were disclosed then we could say if it's a poor or a good evalutation of the facts but so far Umineko doesn't bother with it.

For all we know Yasu might have had suspicions, might have used her key to intrude in Natsuhi's room and checked on her past diaries. Then she took the diary containing that information away. If Natsuhi kept 1 diary per year, it leaves enough diaries to be found by Erika and if Natsuhi doesn't check if they're all there she might have not noticed the diary of 19 years ago disappeared.

Anyway Yasu believes her to be the culprit and so she uses this fact when she makes some scary phonecalls in EP 5.
The interesting part is that with her behaviour Natsuhi likely enforced that belief.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And even if EP5 seems to imply that Natsuhi was responsible it's literally impossible for Yasu to know even with moderate certainty that she really did. What we've seen can't be anything but a mere conjecture. Besides, Ep5 wasn't even written by Yasu so it's anyone's guess whose conjecture that was.
We're talking of PieceYasu here, who's not the writer but the culprit in all the games. The idea is that all the episodes are making up the crimes but not the characterization of the pieces, otherwise we should start questioning all the episodes for characterization mistakes as we aren't even sure that EP 2 was the other message in the bottle left by Yasu.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well I'm with you on that one but look at the facts. Ryuukishi is telling us that her motive was "love". If you're trying to explain things with reasons for her to actually wanting those people dead you're clearly going in the wrong direction. The motive would turn into resentment or even vengeance which was outright stated to be not her reason.
Even love can be 'rationalized'. We know there are things a normal people would do for love and others that... crosses the boundaries of sanity but that can still follow a somewhat logic reasoning.
PieceYasu's actions however doesn't make sense whatsoever.

It's possible they would make more sense if we were allowed to dwell more into her line of thoughts but Umineko doesn't really give us the chance to do so.

Each time I try to find a way to sort out her reasons I slam into a 'this is crossing boundaries too much'.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
My conclusion is that Ryuukishi tried to do the same for Yasu and failed. He never said before that people "don't understand".
Well, with Yasu he really went over the top and explained her rather poorly.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
See? He's outright stating that you're expecting something dramatic to explain Yasu's madness, when love alone (and the six years of waiting) should be enough for you to understand. And you know, he's right, right now all the other examples you've made were decidedly highly dramatic events.
If he wants me to believe that Yasu's love for Battler turned her into this... well he should make a better job at explaining it.

In <b>Mirai Nikki</b> there's another murdering girl who kills for love but her drama and her reasons are explained clearly at the end. Sure, she's mad but you can sympathize with her because you can understand what drove her up the wall, what twisted her mind so that she thought what she was doing was 'right'.

PieceYasu on the other side... it's way harder for plenty of reasons that I've already listed more than once.

I really prefer to think that the one moved by love was PrimeYasu who merely wrote the tales and possibly organized a mystery game... because this is in the boundaries of what one can do for love.

What PieceYasu did instead... it's beyond me.
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Old 2012-08-16, 15:59   Link #30046
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now the girl will run into a corner and cry while claiming that you don't love her enough.
You're an insensitive bastard Kealym, you should do like the usual main character of anime do and eat it all even if it will give you stomach cramps later.
"Look, I bought you a cooking book to thank you for your gift. WHY ARE YOU CRY(ING."

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The question was 'what's the motive?' not 'who shared the same motive for being murdered?'
I think you misunderstood my response. To borrow the words of others, the murders are the means, not the end. There's no specific reason to kill Godha, outside of perhaps the narrative convenience that also covers all the other victims.
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu's still alive and there's a lot of time before the bomb will explode while in all the other episodes she's already dead or the bomb is about to explode so she might feel like finishing the work instead than just helping Jessica to hide.
Firstly, Krauss is declared missing in a different way. Mid-game, in a game that for us definitely WAS stopped short, and was not described as being chewed apart by demons in Hell, which seems to be the soft (..?) language for "exploded explosively".

Secondly, while I won't deny the possibility of Jessica being murdered (EP4 does have everyone being murdered, epitaph be damned), it just reads as really odd to me. I guess it doesn't change all that much either way, though.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The Kyrie argument honestly never made any sense to me.~
Well, keeping in mind that the rules of the Meta are pretty inconsistent, at that specific time the reasoning was "You must make that claim objectively. ... You require concrete proof that Kyrie changed her mind." The 'ad infinitum' problem was avoided quickly by stumbling upon a motive that couldn't be refuted, presumably because it was true. It was weird, though - I'd call it tonge-in-cheek even if it went farther, since the Van Dine list explicitly calls that solution cliche and "a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality."

Also, the witch side DOES seem able to change certain parameters - I mean, it's your story, noone can stop you writing it the way you want. Battler isn't the culprit, this can be said of all games" totally doesn't stop Evil Battler from rippin' it up later on.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
See? He's outright stating that you're expecting something dramatic to explain Yasu's madness, when love alone (and the six years of waiting) should be enough for you to understand. And you know, he's right, right now all the other examples you've made were decidedly highly dramatic events.
...that quote did NOT come from the same man who wrote Requiem. I mean it just can not have.
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Old 2012-08-16, 16:30   Link #30047
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, keeping in mind that the rules of the Meta are pretty inconsistent, at that specific time the reasoning was "You must make that claim objectively. ... You require concrete proof that Kyrie changed her mind." The 'ad infinitum' problem was avoided quickly by stumbling upon a motive that couldn't be refuted, presumably because it was true. It was weird, though - I'd call it tonge-in-cheek even if it went farther, since the Van Dine list explicitly calls that solution cliche and "a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality."
It's just silly to ask someone to prove objectively the mental state of a fictional character. You can't do it. You can't even begin to do it. The only thing Battler could do is exactly what he did, which is why it was stupid to begin with. What else was he going to come up with?
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Old 2012-08-16, 16:33   Link #30048
Asuka0NK
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Whenever I think of Yasu's motive I don't think of it just her being in love. I see the motive was her motive for writing the stories in the first place. Why would she write them if she had nothing to gain which goes back to the whole thing of showing everybody in a good light and how just because someone does bad doesn't make them a bad person. I believe that Yasu wasn't meant to follow this idea but to represent the idea. I mean if Yasu didn't commit the true murders and was actually just a victim then you can probably believe her reason for writing these stories was to protect that person so that they wouldn't be criticized and remembered as a terrible murderer. Instead Yasu threw herself under that so that she would be made out to be the killer and not the true culprit. Sorry if everything I'm saying is stupid but whatever.
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Old 2012-08-16, 18:31   Link #30049
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
To borrow the words of others, the murders are the means, not the end. There's no specific reason to kill Godha, outside of perhaps the narrative convenience that also covers all the other victims.
But the narrative convenience is something that only PrimeYasu (or PrimeTohya or whoever is writing the story) should worry about.

The topic at hand is PieceYasu's motive. Was she not give one as all?
Was it always 'love'?
Was it something different?
Was it a meta motive as someone suggested 'Our confession' might have implied?
Was the motive absent or out of character because the purpose was to make Battler wonder why Beato/PrimeYasu would write a story like that, forcing him to question her motive to write a story like this?
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Old 2012-08-16, 23:03   Link #30050
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's just silly to ask someone to prove objectively the mental state of a fictional character. You can't do it. You can't even begin to do it. The only thing Battler could do is exactly what he did, which is why it was stupid to begin with. What else was he going to come up with?
Well, contrary to how Evatrice presented it ... the fact that she presented it as a riddle carries the assumption that some kind of reasonable "solution" has been properly hinted towards, anyway. Though you're right that it's really odd, and probably a good thing Ryu never tried it again.

Well, it's interesting, anyway. Erika almost brings up something similar ("There weren't even wounds on their necks..? So why did Battler scream?!") but she's immediately blind-sided by Gaap about the issue with Kinzo before pursuing it further.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But the narrative convenience is something that only PrimeYasu (or PrimeTohya or whoever is writing the story) should worry about.
Not entirely true ... PieceYasu is also constructing a murder mystery, right..? Putting aside issues of "well, the author just MADE it that way", sometimes certain victims are just, y'know, far more convenient to get to and attack, or bribe away in certain circumstances. It's sort of like how Nanjo has never been First Twilighted, presumably because she wants him around to talk some "As a doctor, I've never SEEN anyone as dead as this!" stuff.

If you're asking me to specify Piece Yasu's motive in detail, well, I can't really do that. At best, I only have the vague ideas of "roulettes of fate" and whatnot and at worst, I'd almost call it incomprehensible. I have NO idea what Piece Yasu would have WANTED to have happen, outside of maybe Battler immediately solving the epitaph, remembering his promise, and spending the rest of the conference making out with her in front of everybody.
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Old 2012-08-17, 01:45   Link #30051
LyricalAura
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Whatever happened to the possibility that the fantasy narrative was the primary one? EP7 talked about Yasu's fascination with the idea of a mystery being a duel between a human detective and a magical witch. What stops her from writing a fantasy story about a witch who likes creating locked room howdunnits that don't require magic? Then you can stop trying to force silly motives on Piece Yasu, who doesn't exist, and neither the mystery nor the fantasy gets thrown out.

Spoiler for That one Carr novel:
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Old 2012-08-17, 07:24   Link #30052
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't know about you, but in my profession when facts are inconclusive to support claims we most certainly don't make the assumption that such claims are true. There isn't an ounce of evidence to support the factual contentions made about Kinzo and Yasu's supposed crimes. That doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I certainly wouldn't presume I'm supposed to believe they did such things and then forgive them anyway.
The point is that they are fictional characters anyway, therefore applying the logic of tribunals makes little sense. Not to mention the fact that the assumption of innocence is meant to minimize false positives and it's not really based on strict logic. There's no point in applying that to a story.

Anyway Ryuuishi constructed a scenario where he makes you believe that person X did Y, and yet he wants you to understand them. There is absolutely no denial in the sins of the Rokkenjima victims through EP8, in fact EP8 confirms many of those, and yet while it confirms their sins it depicts everyone as a "happy family".

We're not talking about what the "real" Ushiromiya did, we're talking about Battler's last story.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The distinction here is that Ryukishi appears to associate "understanding" with some level of condonement of a person's actions or at least acknowledgement of their motive. And that's crap on a cracker.
I don't think that's true. If you reread the scene from EP7 where Yasu meets Kinzo you realize that she doesn't forgive him even if he asks for that at one point.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That means he either thinks we must be sympathetic toward an utter sociopath - which is absurd - or he's trying to tell us that either the culprit wasn't a sociopath or Yasu wasn't that culprit.

To believe otherwise is basically to think he knows nothing about people in general.
I'll quote Ryuukishi again here. This is from the Meakashi commentary. Reach your own conclusions, but to me it's pretty obvious, and somehow it seems to foreshadow what he did with Yasu and Umineko:

Quote:
Do you think that a murder can be justified depending on the motive?

Hi, this is Ryuukishi07.
Thank you for playing "Higurashi no naku koro ni -Meakashi-".

Although I depict many deaths in my work, I often ask myself.
The question is, is there a justifiable murder?

In our world, a murder is prosecuted, and the degree of punishment varies depending on the motive and circumstances.

Having different degrees of punishment means that we are putting values on the dead person's life.

Some scenes justify murder in "Higurashi".

By degrading the life of the victim in those scene, the players can sympathize with the character more easily.

The degree of sympathy should be different from person to person.

The people who could sympathize probably felt catharsis, and the people who disagreed with the character might have felt uncomfortable. [...]

In "Meakashi", there are also a number of murders.
[CENSORED CULPRIT'S NAME] tries to convince herself for each murder.

How did you feel?
How much did you agree with her decision?

If you did not agree with her at all, please call her a crazy murderer.

If you agreed with her to some degree, please sympathize with her.

If you agreed with her almost entirely, please also sympathize with her.

If you agreed with her absolutely entirely, please consider yourself as crazy as [CENSORED CULPRIT'S NAME].
(Just kidding.)

What about me?
.....Well, that's a secret.

I'd like to reverse my question this time...
What kind of murderer could you sympathize with if you were to be killed?

A murderer who doesn't care about people's lives?
This death must be remorseful.
It is extremely sad to be killed in denial of all your values.

A murderer who begs for forgiveness in tears?
This must be remorseful, too.
They shouldn't kill you if they beg your forgiveness, ha ha.

So, what kind of murderer could you sympathize with...?

In the end, "sympathy" might be just an element to make the story interesting or not.

It would be fun if you could sympathize.
If would be crazy if you couldn't.

We cannot put a value on human life.

It is sinful to try that.

A murder is a murder.
There are no differences.

I just hope everybody can live happily together.

How does that sound?
Would you agree to that?

If you wouldn't.................. Hee hee hee hee hee.

[...]

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzo may be forgivable if what he did really occurred, but only because he was sorry about it and tried to make amends for it. Yasu expresses no remorse and takes no steps to make amends (and in fact, if she was guilty, willfully committed to making Ange an orphan).
Sorry but that sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Are you expecting Yasu to be remorseful of what she did while she did it? Was Kinzo? I doubt that's how he felt when he had his orgasms.
It seems to me you are making an unfair judgement based on the fact that one had the time to feel remorse and the other didn't because she killed herself. How the hell Yasu was meant to make amend to that if she didn't live much past her evil deeds?

The difference in your judgements is based on an external situation and not on the persons themselves.

Who said that Yasu wouldn't feel sorry, or well, what if she actually felt sorry in the end?



Her metaself did say she was sorry.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Whatever happened to the possibility that the fantasy narrative was the primary one? EP7 talked about Yasu's fascination with the idea of a mystery being a duel between a human detective and a magical witch. What stops her from writing a fantasy story about a witch who likes creating locked room howdunnits that don't require magic? Then you can stop trying to force silly motives on Piece Yasu, who doesn't exist, and neither the mystery nor the fantasy gets thrown out.
The fact that the gameboards are stories inside a story doesn't prevent me from judging those stories.
Going by what emerged repeatedly from the narration of Umineko we know that those stories:

1) Are mysteries meant to be solvable by human means (no magic)
2) Are meant to make Battler (and you) understand the culprit's heart.

The problem that everyone here is having is that they read those stories they have more or less understood what's going on on those stories and yet they can't understand the culprit's heart.
Adding a metamotive to the culprit of those stories would mean to break the first point, because the mystery would be no longer solvable by human means if the culprit's motive was not part of that world.
At any rate I think that Ryuukishi's interview makes clear that he thinks we should understand why the love gone wrong experienced by yasu made her kill people, not that we should understand that she really didn't do anything bad.
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Old 2012-08-17, 09:00   Link #30053
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Adding a metamotive to the culprit of those stories would mean to break the first point, because the mystery would be no longer solvable by human means if the culprit's motive was not part of that world.
I don't think that a promise was made that the games were solvable only by human means.
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Old 2012-08-17, 09:41   Link #30054
Renall
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Whatever happened to the possibility that the fantasy narrative was the primary one? EP7 talked about Yasu's fascination with the idea of a mystery being a duel between a human detective and a magical witch. What stops her from writing a fantasy story about a witch who likes creating locked room howdunnits that don't require magic? Then you can stop trying to force silly motives on Piece Yasu, who doesn't exist, and neither the mystery nor the fantasy gets thrown out.
That's fine, but then what was the point about discussing motive? There's no real need to get into the whole notion of motive if the point of the stories is not to present a plausible culprit motivated by any particular thing, but merely to establish a set of mystery scenarios.

It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that she'd stop doing what she's doing if a completely unrelated puzzle is solved. It also kind of makes light of Battler's struggles and makes it seem like him not being serious enough for Beatrice is hypocritical. If she's just messing around, why does he need to care so much? She's the one who made him treat it as something other than an amusing challenge, then got mad when he didn't get it.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Sorry but that sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Are you expecting Yasu to be remorseful of what she did while she did it? Was Kinzo? I doubt that's how he felt when he had his orgasms.
It seems to me you are making an unfair judgement based on the fact that one had the time to feel remorse and the other didn't because she killed herself. How the hell Yasu was meant to make amend to that if she didn't live much past her evil deeds?
The decision to kill herself (if she did, of course) is her own act of cowardice to escape consequences. So it is entirely her fault that she cannot make amends for it. The point is that any apology offered by her or a character associated with her is false. It's a lie. She was never sorry about what she did, or else she would try to live with it and fix it (or, you know, not do it). Maybe she would have been, but she never actually was, because she died (maybe).

If she is truly a killer, she was never made to acknowledge that what she did was wrong and completely unnecessary. What she did was evil, flat out, and your presentation of her is unequivocally an evil character. There's no need to understand her heart because she is heartless. The matter is actually worse if she actually believes in the whole Golden Land thing, because it means she believes she can murder people and then kill herself and gain their love and forgiveness without facing any punishment. It's the logic of a spoiled child.

Granted, I'm still not sure I'd buy that. I'd rather the whole thing just be an accident than to have to accept a person who was just sick and evil.
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Her metaself did say she was sorry.
Her meta-self isn't her. It's basically Ange or Battler wishing she was sorry. We have no way of knowing she actually would be sorry, and frankly I cannot buy her killing and being sorry. I can buy her not doing it and being sorry that she led them to think so, and I can buy her doing it and not being sorry, but the middle ground is absolutely impossible.

It's entirely Ange and Battler's prerogative to forgive, but the fact of the matter is her actions really shouldn't be forgiven. If Ange wants to pretend the person who deliberately ruined her entire life (and the lives of whoever else may have survived) is contrite, fine. If that makes her happy, I guess she can do that. But ultimately it's just another sham fantasy that Ryukishi thinks makes people's lives better when all it does is harm their growth and maturity. It's her own business how she chooses to respond to all that, but ultimately it isn't right to choose to believe the person who harmed you is a tragic figure deserving of your sympathy. It's basically a desperate search for reason where none is to be found, at least according to Ryukishi's supposed motive because if that's true then Yasu was mentally ill and everyone died for nothing. I'm sure that is difficult to accept over "she was a tragic figure acting out of lost love and regrets what she did," but it's also not shifting undeserved sympathy away from a genuine victim and over to a murderer who believed killing completely innocent people was justifiable if it made her better off.

The difference with Kinzo is that Kinzo's acts, if true, at least had some clear effect on him and drove him to repentance, and concrete steps were taken to actually atone. It isn't necessary that he be forgiven (and if everything said of him is true, perhaps everything he did isn't enough to make up for it); again, forgiveness is the prerogative of the people he wronged (and he wronged more than Yasu). But Kinzo's cowardice was far less than Yasu's alleged cowardice, so he at least stuck around to suffer for his own wrongs and do some good, suggesting he understands that his actions were not right.

I'd still prefer to believe she's innocent, because as a culprit she makes absolutely no goddamn sense and anyone who is satisfied with that should seriously reexamine why in the world they'd accept such a thing.
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At any rate I think that Ryuukishi's interview makes clear that he thinks we should understand why the love gone wrong experienced by yasu made her kill people, not that we should understand that she really didn't do anything bad.
If such a clear answer is intended, why is he being so evasive? For example, why didn't he just come out and say that in ep8? Why doesn't he very explicitly state the who/how/whendunnit? I don't disagree with you that it's true he teases this notion, but he also seems to try to dance around confirming or denying the specific interpretations of the facts. That's just awfully weird. If it's so clear-cut he can joke about it in interviews, why is it something he couldn't write in concretely to the work?
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:17   Link #30055
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Hm , Sorry for coming out of nowhere lol. What we can all agree is that nothing justifies murder,
And I don't believe Yasu did kill anyone in prime, Yes her motive is weak (Unless she snaped and went crazy, which does not need a motive), But I do believe she is the culprit of the gameboards of Ep1-4 . As others have said many times, In Prime she probably set up a fake murder game and because of paranoia , People start to kill for real, Also George VS Battler might have lead into Kyrie shooting George and Eva thinking that she was the culprit. Yasu Blames herself for this and in the end commits suicide. I mean why do Ange and Battler forgive her so easly, It does not makes sense, Nobody can forgive someone for murder of their parents and reletives, not to mention a 9 year old child
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:22   Link #30056
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You could forgive them, but like you said, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do it so readily. I get the impression that they both believe that the culprit would have been sorry and thus seek to forgive them. Well, that or they both realize Beatrice wasn't the true culprit and forgive her misleading them to protect someone who is bad. It's a lot easier to understand someone covering for somebody else's crimes because they care about them than understanding the person who committed the crimes themselves.
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:34   Link #30057
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Most of the people hate shkannon solution, am I the only one who likes it? XDD
I mean such a twisted twist I love it completly, And the multiply personality disorder. Of course I dont believe such things exist in the real world but In fiction I'll change my mind.
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:37   Link #30058
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fake murder game and because of paranoia
See to me so many people killing so many other people out of paranoia makes very little sense as well. Instead of one person acting irrationally for a motive of love you are suggesting many people acting irrationally and resulting in a blood-bath? How many people would a paranoid person kill before they realised they were killing the wrong people, and furthermore, how long would the charade of a fake murder game last when people started dying for real?

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It's a lot easier to understand someone covering for somebody else's crimes because they care about them than understanding the person who committed the crimes themselves
So who do you think she is covering for?
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:44   Link #30059
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GuestSpeaker

Then what was EP7 ??? , Maybe they fired the gun acidentely which leads to others to believe she/he is the culprit? Their are tons of stuff I can use from previous Episodes , so Knox wont work. In EP3 Second twilight is also a acidental murder, Which I believe Eva pushed rosa because she was hitting maria and well you remember how rosas corpse was found and then killed maria because she didnt want others to know. What if something like this happened? Anyway I give up , Im no match for you animesuki pros XDD
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Old 2012-08-17, 11:02   Link #30060
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
So who do you think she is covering for?
There's not really enough evidence to say, given how little evidence of Prime there is at all.
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