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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 06
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 21 15.22%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 28 20.29%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 42 30.43%
7 out of 10 : Good... 24 17.39%
6 out of 10 : Average... 13 9.42%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 4 2.90%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.17%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 3 2.17%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-17, 10:16   Link #301
zaz122
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The way I see Kirito's relationship with the other front line guilds is the same way you view that one PuBy in a guild raid in WoW.

He's a useful tool to have around, he's better than majority of your raidmates, but he's still an outsider getting loot that could have helped improve the overall guild position. What's more, he's there every single raid reset because your guild lacks the manpower, so the best choice is him, yet he still refuses to join the guild.
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:29   Link #302
willx
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Why the quotation marks on side-stories? If anime-only viewers can spot them as a side-story, and the novel readers confirm they are side-stories, then they are still side-stories.
There's a reason I put it in quotation markets: 1) The anime is fully incorporating them into the flow of the story vs. leaving them as "side-stories" and 2) for those that read the light novels, the author is working on revising/producing a "Progressive" version that better incorporates them into the flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
We infer the majority of player deaths due to carelessness because that one guy blaming the beta testers for ditching everyone since they had adequate knowledge on the game.
Considering Kirito's played the beta, he knew what he was capable of handling (ie. take in only 1 man, but no more), since he's done the beginning content already.
It's pretty much stated that being a beta tester is good because you have more information, but is also bad because it leads to overconfidence. Remember Diabel from episode 2 and also..
Spoiler for LN Comment on Survival Rate of Beta Testers:


Also: no comment on .hack//sign? I was hoping someone could answer it for me cause I could never understand it -> "Why does Tsukasa and BT never actually use magic and just melee!?"
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Old 2012-08-17, 10:59   Link #303
Starlightz
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About Beater issue - people should remember that only a very few people in front line raid group(s) knew Kirito's face (probably less than 100). It doesn't seem these people are putting his photo on wanted posters, so the majority of players (and even some of top guilds' members) have no idea who beater is. All they knew is that there are some hated beaters, one of them is a sword user dressed in black, which is too vague to tell who is who. Black Cats and Tian Hands didn't know who he was at all, although TH members heard of Kirito-the-beater before; The guys in eps 5. didn't even know who Kirito and Asuna were (here we have the sub-leader of top guild and supposed to be one of the top idol in SAO, compared to her, who a puny little beater is...). That's why it wouldn't be a big problem for Kirito to party with random people if that's necessary. He's a solo in the sense that he isn't in a guild, or in a fixed group (with friends). He could still be in random PuGs as long as he doesn't let them know of his beater status. There shouldn't be a witch-hunt, either.

And as people have mentioned - Kirito is a very strong player (highest level, fast reaction coupled with experiences, after all he was calling boss' attacks out for raid group in first level). Even if some people think he's a jerk, they can't deny they need his strength. When facing a life or death situation, or when you need to kill a boss as soon as possible (which means least to no wipe) good items are something they only consider after winning. It probably have gone like this - level 2, they are picking top level players for the boss raid => Asuna and Agil tell them to pick Kirito since he's strong => some other beta testers (who was hiding their beta tester status) among top level players also agree with that since he was taking the burden for them => non-beta testers accept since they can't simply remove Asuna, Agil and others from the raid. Repeat that for the next 10s level, and the old front-liners are used to his presence in the raid, the new front-liners don't know that he is a beater, problem solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaz122
The way I see Kirito's relationship with the other front line guilds is the same way you view that one PuBy in a guild raid in WoW.
Off-topic, but what's a PuBy?... did someone invent that term within last 5-6 months when I was away from WoW ._."

Last edited by Starlightz; 2012-08-17 at 11:11.
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Old 2012-08-17, 12:02   Link #304
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Originally Posted by Starlightz View Post
Off-topic, but what's a PuBy?... did someone invent that term within last 5-6 months when I was away from WoW ._."
My guess is he meant PUG which means Pickup Group. Basically a random bunch of players who group together to kill a boss/complete a quest and then dissolves.
Spoiler for WoW:


In SAO's case, solo players like Kirito join other raiding guilds to kill the floor boss and then leave after the kill.
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Old 2012-08-17, 12:51   Link #305
MrPopo
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
He's a beater. That alone should already establish why he's shouldn't be able join a guild.
It seems to me that the problem you and a lot of SAO detractors have is that you refuse to read in between the lines and thus come up with complaints that are very subjective or easily refuted. Did being a beater stop him from joining the Black Cats? No? Then why hasn't he joined another guild?

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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Being nice may be a simplistic reason, but judging from his past action (and "future" if you count ep 5+6), he shows he is willing to help others (within reason).

Considering he tells Silica she's a substitute sister, explains the debt he owed, wanted to make her feel secure as a bait easily explains the actions he took with her. No need to try and add the bits from ep 3 to make it work at all.
I don't consider it a redemption story, it's about a good guy doing a good deed.
If he needs motive to do something, what's his reason for solving the mystery murder in this story? I'd say good guy doing good deed (well, he was also intrigued on how players were bypassing the PK prevention mechanics).

As for finding restful moments, considering the whole beater issue is effectively ignored, ignoring the whole Black Cats guilt isn't any different at all.
He helped Klein in the beginning because things were casual, when things got tough he bolted. He helped the raid group because he obviously wants to clear the game. He helped the Black Cats because it's pretty evident that he doesn't enjoy being a loner. He helped solve the murder mystery because he believes the game is 'fair' so the unfairness of in town PKing piqued his interest. Preventing the Golden Apple guild from being PKed by Laughing Coffin is probably the only thing he's done that can be completely attributed to his niceness. But that only took...about half an hour? You can argue all you want about how going up against LC was dangerous, but the anime didn't portray Kirito as being in any sort of danger.

On the other hand, hunting down the orange guild required him to stalk the leader and use bait in order to finally bring the guild into the open. Who knows how long that took? What was his reward? Probably nothing of significance since no one else on the front lines deemed it worthy of their time. Is it still safe to say that Kirito did it solely out of niceness?

Consider also that Kirito didn't really go out of his way for Silica. He gave her mid-level equipment that he probably doesn't need and 1 teleportation crystal. Had he agreed to revive her pet dragon without the ulterior motive of hunting down the orange guild, then yeah, that would be considered a good deed. As is, Silica was a means to an end. Heck, Silica could have been a random dude and it probably wouldn't have mattered as long as she (or in this case, he) could be used as bait.

It's also silly to write off the interpretation of episode 4 being a redemption arc just because...well, I'm not entirely sure what your counter argument is. Suffice to say that it's an interpretation that allows viewers to bridge the gap between the broken Kirito in episode 3 and the Kirito who's seen dozing off peacefully in episode 5.

I don't have any strong feelings towards the whole beater thing, but I do think that you're giving it too much weight.

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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Can we please swap topics? Or maybe just promise to leave these tired old arguments behind in a few days when the new episode airs?

It's really been beaten to death quite a lot. Over multiple episode threads.

A lot of people are very happy with the pace / backstory / "show don't tell" aspects.

Other people are disgusted with the... err... pace / backstory / "tell don't show" aspects.

You'll never convince the other party, and we've been rehashing some of these topics for multiple episode threads. Heck, most of the stuff on the past few pages hasn't even been relevant to this episode.
I agree that this argument is getting old, but I'd rather everyone get it out of their systems now. That way, we won't have to bare with it next episode.
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Old 2012-08-17, 13:40   Link #306
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
He helped Klein in the beginning because things were casual, when things got tough he bolted. He helped the raid group because he obviously wants to clear the game. He helped the Black Cats because it's pretty evident that he doesn't enjoy being a loner. He helped solve the murder mystery because he believes the game is 'fair' so the unfairness of in town PKing piqued his interest. Preventing the Golden Apple guild from being PKed by Laughing Coffin is probably the only thing he's done that can be completely attributed to his niceness. But that only took...about half an hour? You can argue all you want about how going up against LC was dangerous, but the anime didn't portray Kirito as being in any sort of danger.
It was shown pretty clumsily, but it was dangerous enough he didn't send them to jail. He didn't have that kind of margin.

Quote:
On the other hand, hunting down the orange guild required him to stalk the leader and use bait in order to finally bring the guild into the open. Who knows how long that took? What was his reward? Probably nothing of significance since no one else on the front lines deemed it worthy of their time.
Nothing. The leader spent all his fortune for the crystal, with nothing left over for a reward.

Quote:
I don't have any strong feelings towards the whole beater thing, but I do think that you're giving it too much weight.
That's part of the reason I don't like Aria in the Starless Night. As a stand alone, it's fine, but it doesn't fit with the rest.
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Old 2012-08-17, 14:16   Link #307
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Re: "BEATER BEATER BEATER BEATER BEATER"

Why, oh WHY do people think that after like FIFTY floors, which is WAY beyond how far the beta testers got, that the whole "Beater" thing is even relevant to anyone seriously trying to beat this game?
It's not relevant anymore. That much is true.

But that's the very thing Quadratic complained. The whole "Beater" thing has no relevance in the story whatsoever, because of the time skip. It's as if the term never existed. You could arguably not use this term in the story and not notice the difference.
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Old 2012-08-17, 14:24   Link #308
MrPopo
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
It's not relevant anymore. That much is true.

But that's the very thing Quadratic complained. The whole "Beater" thing has no relevance in the story whatsoever, because of the time skip. It's as if the term never existed. You could arguably not use this term in the story and not notice the difference.
It is relevant in the sense that Kirito hid his level from the Black Cats, which may or may not have been the ultimate cause for the guild wipe. That in itself is pretty significant.
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Old 2012-08-17, 14:45   Link #309
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
It is relevant in the sense that Kirito hid his level from the Black Cats, which may or may not have been the ultimate cause for the guild wipe. That in itself is pretty significant.
You might be right, but to my knowledge that's not how the anime exposed Kirito's reason to hide his level to be.

Actually, I don't remember, how did the anime explain why Kirito hid his level again?
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Old 2012-08-17, 15:09   Link #310
Adigard
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
It's not relevant anymore. That much is true.

But that's the very thing Quadratic complained. The whole "Beater" thing has no relevance in the story whatsoever, because of the time skip. It's as if the term never existed. You could arguably not use this term in the story and not notice the difference.
To be fair... the beater bit took up roughly... what... a minute of episode two, and maybe fifteen seconds of episode three and another in episode four? I'm not sure we're supposed to spend so much time debating something the anime has never really spent much time on.

It's important in that it shapes part of Kirito's experiences in SAO... but the anime timeline is a year+ later, and the anime itself has spent less time / attention on it than we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
You might be right, but to my knowledge that's not how the anime exposed Kirito's reason to hide his level to be.

Actually, I don't remember, how did the anime explain why Kirito hid his level again?
I think the guild girl saw his screen and realized what was going on, but Kirito likely lied about his level to better fit in with the folks he just met. The LN explained it better, but even the reasons there were a bit weak. Of course, Kirito obviously never intended to spend any sort of time with that guild in the beginning, so he was likely suffering from his lies stacking up.
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Old 2012-08-17, 15:10   Link #311
Znail
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
You might be right, but to my knowledge that's not how the anime exposed Kirito's reason to hide his level to be.

Actually, I don't remember, how did the anime explain why Kirito hid his level again?
It didn't. But as the Beater episode was the one before so does it suggest that as reason.
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Old 2012-08-17, 17:19   Link #312
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
To be fair... the beater bit took up roughly... what... a minute of episode two, and maybe fifteen seconds of episode three and another in episode four? I'm not sure we're supposed to spend so much time debating something the anime has never really spent much time on.
It might have only been a minute or two, but it was a rather memorable minute or two. It was Kirito at his hammiest. Back when I first watched it, I thought it would end up being a rather important plot point, as it certainly had the feel of one. So I think viewers have a right to say "What happened with the whole 'Beater' thing? Seems like some heavy drama over very little."

Some SAO critics have been overly nitpicky, but some of the bigger SAO fans won't budge for even the most reasonable criticisms, imo.

I think if both sides would give a bit, you could get beyond these debates.

SAO has been a very good anime, but the way its been presented could have been smoother. There's nothing particularly wrong with what's there - There's a lot to like about it - But some of these rough edges could have been smoothed out more to make the overarching narrative seem a bit less clunky. That, or some of these side-arcs should have been left for later, to be told as flashbacks, imo.
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Old 2012-08-17, 19:02   Link #313
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But some of these rough edges could have been smoothed out more to make the overarching narrative seem a bit less clunky. That, or some of these side-arcs should have been left for later, to be told as flashbacks, imo.
Hard to say, I personally think the anime adaption is doing a rather pissy job at adapting certain things. They are adapting things that could be dropped ('dat ghost >_<;; ) and wasting time in places that could be better spent on more meaningful things. But it's not my adaption. Overall I'm very impressed with their adaption, and I say that, because I've read some of the LN's to Campione!, and I know exactly how poorly things can be adapted.

But these last few episodes have introduced us to Kirito, and his friends, and the world they all live in. And there have been subtle (and not so subtle) introductions to MMO elements that non-MMO player's need to be introduced to. And they've shown us things that will come up later on, so they will simply be reinforced when introduced again, rather than just being magicked in place.

What more do we need?
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Old 2012-08-17, 19:56   Link #314
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What a dumb story. Adding a purely crazy guy with no substance and calling that a villain and plot is a waste of time.

And Kirito did find a legendary item, the one which revived a person... and he immediately gave it away. Yeah, he is just a character, nothing real about him.
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Old 2012-08-17, 20:04   Link #315
Adigard
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What a dumb story. Adding a purely crazy guy with no substance and calling that a villain and plot is a waste of time.

And Kirito did find a legendary item, the one which revived a person... and he immediately gave it away. Yeah, he is just a character, nothing real about him.
<3 trolls
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Old 2012-08-17, 20:05   Link #316
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Old 2012-08-18, 00:42   Link #317
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
It seems to me that the problem you and a lot of SAO detractors have is that you refuse to read in between the lines and thus come up with complaints that are very subjective or easily refuted. Did being a beater stop him from joining the Black Cats? No? Then why hasn't he joined another guild?
Sorry, but there is no reading between the lines required to understand story at all.
Reading between the lines might give you icing on the cake, but that's all.
eg. Blacks Cats provide additional reasons to help, not primary reason, because the episode explains the main motives in itself, hence can be treated self-contained, therefore a side-story.

Ep 5 & 6 is perhaps the start of when where the main plot picks up again since it explains how Asuna and Kirito become true friends, but the revelance of ep 3 & 4 is again unnecessary to understand these episodes, and this PK "exploit" will most likely not hold any revelance to how they get out of the world (and yes, I understand getting out of the world isn't the point of this show anymore. It's been emphasized by the novel readers many, many times already).

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Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
He helped Klein in the beginning because things were casual, when things got tough he bolted. He helped the raid group because he obviously wants to clear the game. He helped the Black Cats because it's pretty evident that he doesn't enjoy being a loner. He helped solve the murder mystery because he believes the game is 'fair' so the unfairness of in town PKing piqued his interest. Preventing the Golden Apple guild from being PKed by Laughing Coffin is probably the only thing he's done that can be completely attributed to his niceness. But that only took...about half an hour? You can argue all you want about how going up against LC was dangerous, but the anime didn't portray Kirito as being in any sort of danger.
You're undermining his intelligence. He thought and reasoned his decision on Klein, and he made the right decision in the end.
Ep 3 showed he miscalculated his capabilities and got it wrong.
You could stretch an argument that ep 4 shows he adjusts his calculations to make sure he's right this time round by reading between the lines, or disregard it completely showing he's made the right calculation (giving the same end result in either case), since every action he took was explained within the same episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
On the other hand, hunting down the orange guild required him to stalk the leader and use bait in order to finally bring the guild into the open. Who knows how long that took? What was his reward? Probably nothing of significance since no one else on the front lines deemed it worthy of their time. Is it still safe to say that Kirito did it solely out of niceness?
Yes, it is. Nice people go out of their way to help another, which is exactly what he did, and is exactly the point Silica was saying.
Additional motive is icing on the cake, but not required for the story to make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
Consider also that Kirito didn't really go out of his way for Silica. He gave her mid-level equipment that he probably doesn't need and 1 teleportation crystal. Had he agreed to revive her pet dragon without the ulterior motive of hunting down the orange guild, then yeah, that would be considered a good deed. As is, Silica was a means to an end. Heck, Silica could have been a random dude and it probably wouldn't have mattered as long as she (or in this case, he) could be used as bait.
His bonus with her was to repay his debt with his sister, he said so himself. If anything, it is the redemption of the guilt with his sister, not the Black Cats guild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
It's also silly to write off the interpretation of episode 4 being a redemption arc just because...well, I'm not entirely sure what your counter argument is. Suffice to say that it's an interpretation that allows viewers to bridge the gap between the broken Kirito in episode 3 and the Kirito who's seen dozing off peacefully in episode 5.
Because driving his primary motive away from what's explained in the same episode to the redeeming his loss with the Black Cats is stretching it. Note, I emphasize on the word primary. Your interpretation requires thinking outside the box, my interpretation is the box already gave the explanation.

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Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
I don't have any strong feelings towards the whole beater thing, but I do think that you're giving it too much weight.
Yes, and the how the story panned out agrees with you. The burden of being a beater isn't so heavy, so I guess it wasn't such a hard decision for Kirito to make when he decided to accept it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPopo View Post
I agree that this argument is getting old, but I'd rather everyone get it out of their systems now. That way, we won't have to bare with it next episode.
Yes, I do have it out of my system now. I approached this show with the wrong line of thinking based on the first 2 episodes (which is surprising since 2 episodes usually give me the right impression of the show).
Now I know how this show works, I know that sometimes I will be wrong in thinking some parts are important (or addressed in the next direct episode), and if said elements are to be addressed, they will introduce a new element to address said issue.

If we want to go on topic, we see Kirito has been right all along, because he's a smart guy ("this world is logical, therefore you can't bypass the PK prevention mechanics").
But the end of the episode trolled him by saying "you were right, but here's a ghost to show you're wrong anyway".
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Old 2012-08-18, 01:29   Link #318
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Jesus Christ. We're going to have to listen to the whining about the beater issue for the rest of the series... -facepalm-
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Old 2012-08-18, 02:43   Link #319
erneiz_hyde
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This is getting tiresome. Quadratic have presented a good argument about how the storytelling is lacking, and I don't see any other good topic floating around. Can't we please just get back to discussing how awesome Kirito is or how moe Silica and Asuna is? kthx
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Old 2012-08-18, 02:44   Link #320
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This is getting tiresome. Can't we please just get back to discussing how awesome Kirito is or how moe Silica and Asuna is?
This x10000
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