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Old 2012-08-06, 13:28   Link #9501
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
That still doesn't change that Lelouch used outside means to achieve his goals and used Geass to establish his power base after his heel turn. Without Geass or Zero than nothing would have changed, thus Suzaku putting the mask of Zero means that the world needs Zero for the foreseeable future.
No, Lelouch accomplished the entirety of his final plan in the Zero Requiem section of the story from within the Britannian system. His geass itself was especially suited to internally changing the system. In particular, without geass, Lelouch's external rebellion wouldn't have stood a chance of getting anywhere either.

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Euphie wasn't validated, as far as the rest of the world knows she's still the one that ordered that tragedy. Besides, not like the public would believe in the Geass business anyway.

The world Suzaku wanted was one where he changed everything from the inside, not what Lelouch did where he didn't bother working for change he forced it(which is not what Suzaku wanted). Instead he failed at that and was forced to join with Lelouch to force a coup and than garner the worlds hatreds based on a lie.
Suzaku wasn't forced to join Lelouch in causing a coup, he chose to do so. The "world" that Suzaku wanted was a gentle one which had broken the chains hatred and war, just the same as Lelouch and Nunnally (or basically any number of other characters). Suzaku chose to change Britannia from the inside because Britannia was always the most powerful world power; his reasoning was that war/conflict would be ended quickly just so long as one side could achieve a conclusive victory. Jumping around between supporting Charles, Schniezel, or Lelouch whenever it was most advantageous to him wasn't a contradiction of his principles because they were all still within the system; rather, it was exactly what he should have been expected to do in order to obtain the power necessary for his objectives.

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Lelouch only allowed himself to die because of the guilt of what he had to do and to sell his plan so that the world could move on and Nunnally could live in a world she was trying to create. It had nothing to do about letting Suzaku win because everything that happened was what Lelouch had planned, Suzaku was just there for the ride.
No, Lelouch would have just resigned himself to a suicidal death after eliminating Charles from the C world if it were not for Suzaku. Suzaku's demand that Lelouch take responsibility for what he had done to Euphie by dying was what prompted Lelouch to formulate his Zero Requiem plan; a plan which needed the cooperation of Suzaku which Lelouch could never have gotten without acknowledging his regret/intention to atone for what he had done to Euphie. At that point in the story, Lelouch's motivations were entirely driven by Suzaku and his general regret for the state of the world/what he had done to it because he believed Nunally was dead, completely removing her from his calculations.
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Old 2012-08-06, 15:26   Link #9502
Destined_Fate
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Uhh.. No he didn't. Unless of course Geass is a part of the system and taking over by killing his father despite the protests of his relatives who are forced to obey. He changed the system from the outside, had he done it Suzaku's way he wouldn't have rebelled and would have worked his way up into the position not steal it with Geass.

By choosing to work with Lelouch meant that Suzaku had given up on his ways and followed Lelouch's. And again, Lelouch was not within the system. One day everyone thought he was dead, the next he Geass'd everyone to serve him and than purposely did horrible things so that the world would hate him so that it could move on.

Lelouch ended up taking the hate away from the real criminals and putting it upon himself. That doesn't change that criminals, like his relative that was wiling to nuke the world, got away scot-free and nothing was ever done about them.

Suzaku was still dependent upon Lelouch. Had Lelouch just killed himself than and there than nothing would have changed despite anything Suzaku tried to do. His way just didn't work and he was reserved to the fact that he needed Geass to change how screwed up the world was. Thus he lost and as punishment he is to be Zero to enforce the peace so that Nunnally can have her ideal peaceful world that was changed not by the system but by Geass which is outside the system.

Even with Nunnally dead it still didn't change that he still wanted to make the world she desired(and really, it's not the first time Nunnally has been in a compromising situation that made Lelouch go batshit crazy). Had the Black Knights not betrayed him he would have still lead them. Their betrayal was just the final straw since he was already dealing with Suzaku nuking things because of the Geass he put on him, thinking Suzaku sold him out, the supposed death of Nunnally, Shirley being dead, Rolo still around while Nunnally wasn't, and the such. Than there's the thing where he tried to make Kallen hate him, despite her willing to die for him, to save her.

So it's understandable why he wanted to die. However, he wouldn't have resigned himself to that if he wasn't betrayed on top of everything else.
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Old 2012-08-06, 19:45   Link #9503
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Uhh.. No he didn't. Unless of course Geass is a part of the system and taking over by killing his father despite the protests of his relatives who are forced to obey. He changed the system from the outside, had he done it Suzaku's way he wouldn't have rebelled and would have worked his way up into the position not steal it with Geass.
Sure using geass still counts as being within the system. Why wouldn't it count as doing so? Lelouch's claim to the throne still had its legitimacy based on his royal heritage and all of his reforms/war declarations/tyranny/etc. were made through the channel of the Britannian system/government. Don't forget that Schniezel himself was planning a "coup" too. The entire basis/history of the Britannian royal system was filled with backstabbing/assassinations/conflict amongst the family members in the first place so I've got no idea why you'd say Suzaku aiding one of them in violently taking the throne would be "outside" the system.

Suzaku agreed long before Lelouch thought of Zero Requiem to kill Charles in exchange for the Knight of One position under Schniezel. Do you think that counts as going outside of the system? Regardless of if you do, that already proves beyond any question that Suzaku wasn't "forced" by Lelouch into anything.

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By choosing to work with Lelouch meant that Suzaku had given up on his ways and followed Lelouch's. And again, Lelouch was not within the system. One day everyone thought he was dead, the next he Geass'd everyone to serve him and than purposely did horrible things so that the world would hate him so that it could move on.

Lelouch ended up taking the hate away from the real criminals and putting it upon himself. That doesn't change that criminals, like his relative that was wiling to nuke the world, got away scot-free and nothing was ever done about them.
What does that have to do with anything? Obviously within the (Britannian) "system" neither Schniezel nor Cornelia were considered criminals, so wouldn't the fact that they weren't punished demonstrate that in Zero Requiem Lelouch didn't try to go outside of the system?

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Suzaku was still dependent upon Lelouch. Had Lelouch just killed himself than and there than nothing would have changed despite anything Suzaku tried to do. His way just didn't work and he was reserved to the fact that he needed Geass to change how screwed up the world was. Thus he lost and as punishment he is to be Zero to enforce the peace so that Nunnally can have her ideal peaceful world that was changed not by the system but by Geass which is outside the system.
lol nope, as mentioned above Suzaku already had a standing deal with Schniezel. After Charles was defeated, Suzaku decided to kill Lelouch and honestly if he really wanted he could have just done so and then gone back to Schniezel, claiming credit for Charles' elimination. Then he would've become Knight of One, govern any country/"area" he wanted and helped Schniezel take over the politics of the world in a way which was fair and peaceful for everyone. The only reason that Suzaku chose to stick with Lelouch instead was because Lelouch agreed to atone/die for Euphie and by doing so strike up his old friendship with Suzaku.

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Even with Nunnally dead it still didn't change that he still wanted to make the world she desired(and really, it's not the first time Nunnally has been in a compromising situation that made Lelouch go batshit crazy). Had the Black Knights not betrayed him he would have still lead them. Their betrayal was just the final straw since he was already dealing with Suzaku nuking things because of the Geass he put on him, thinking Suzaku sold him out, the supposed death of Nunnally, Shirley being dead, Rolo still around while Nunnally wasn't, and the such. Than there's the thing where he tried to make Kallen hate him, despite her willing to die for him, to save her.

So it's understandable why he wanted to die. However, he wouldn't have resigned himself to that if he wasn't betrayed on top of everything else.
Again, what does that have to do with anything. The point is that Lelouch was suicidal during/after his meeting with Charles and would never have accomplished anything or thought up of Zero Requiem afterwards if it were not for the influence of Suzaku.
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Old 2012-08-06, 22:02   Link #9504
azul120
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Actually, on the other hand, the way that Lelouch actually ended up achieving his goals was through internally taking over the Britannian system and drawing the world's hatred onto himself. So it was Lelouch who admitted he was wrong. In choosing to "become evil to defeat evil", Lelouch committed such horrendous atrocities that eventually he himself was forced to recognize the wrongness of his actions and attempt to redeem himself by sacrificing his life for the greater good.

By agreeing to be killed by Suzaku and clear the name of Euphie, Lelouch validated everything about Suzaku's position that Lelouch was wrong. Thus Lelouch being forced to die to create the peaceful world that Suzaku wanted shows that Suzaku "won" after all.
What?!?! By what bizarro logic can committing even more horrendous atrocities than what he earlier did be considered redemption? Besides, it was Britannia who was at fault, and while he wasn't exactly a saint, he didn't always have less drastic options. Lelouch's earlier plan of beating Britannia via the Black Knight/UFN alliance would have worked if he wasn't such an unlucky bastard.

Plus, Euphie would NEVER want her name to be cleared that way. Not to mention Suzaku didn't want to do it.

And if Lelouch deserved to die, what about Cornelia, Guilford, Villetta, or Ohgi, for starters? Why do they get to live in the world they did NOTHING to deserve, or in the latter's case, nearly screw up?

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Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
as far as i remember Suzaku and Lelouch both came to the decision that we saw at the end, none of them was forced into doing it, it was a necessary step to make peace
Suzaku asked if there were other ways, and Lelouch told him there were. There was no exact decision there.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, Lelouch would have just resigned himself to a suicidal death after eliminating Charles from the C world if it were not for Suzaku. Suzaku's demand that Lelouch take responsibility for what he had done to Euphie by dying was what prompted Lelouch to formulate his Zero Requiem plan; a plan which needed the cooperation of Suzaku which Lelouch could never have gotten without acknowledging his regret/intention to atone for what he had done to Euphie. At that point in the story, Lelouch's motivations were entirely driven by Suzaku and his general regret for the state of the world/what he had done to it because he believed Nunally was dead, completely removing her from his calculations.
Incorrect. He didn't force Lelouch to answer for Euphie. Lelouch wanted to do it of his own accord before shuffling out of the mortal world.

Besides, that would have just made Suzaku remain as hypocritically vindictive as ever. Suzaku was partly responsible for 35 million deaths in Japan, and as far as he and Lelouch knew, the death of Lelouch's other sister, Nunnally.

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Sure using geass still counts as being within the system. Why wouldn't it count as doing so? Lelouch's claim to the throne still had its legitimacy based on his royal heritage and all of his reforms/war declarations/tyranny/etc. were made through the channel of the Britannian system/government. Don't forget that Schniezel himself was planning a "coup" too. The entire basis/history of the Britannian royal system was filled with backstabbing/assassinations/conflict amongst the family members in the first place so I've got no idea why you'd say Suzaku aiding one of them in violently taking the throne would be "outside" the system.
It doesn't imply Lelouch was wrong. Again, his earlier rebellion would have worked if not for bad luck.

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What does that have to do with anything? Obviously within the (Britannian) "system" neither Schniezel nor Cornelia were considered criminals, so wouldn't the fact that they weren't punished demonstrate that in Zero Requiem Lelouch didn't try to go outside of the system?
What does it have to do with anything, you ask? Why is it that they get away with being mass murderers and occupiers, yet Lelouch is the one who has to die? Well, Schneizel doesn't completely get away with it given that he's a slave, but Cornelia is a pure Karma Houdini.

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lol nope, as mentioned above Suzaku already had a standing deal with Schniezel. After Charles was defeated, Suzaku decided to kill Lelouch and honestly if he really wanted he could have just done so and then gone back to Schniezel, claiming credit for Charles' elimination. Then he would've become Knight of One, govern any country/"area" he wanted and helped Schniezel take over the politics of the world in a way which was fair and peaceful for everyone. The only reason that Suzaku chose to stick with Lelouch instead was because Lelouch agreed to atone/die for Euphie and by doing so strike up his old friendship with Suzaku.
You're going off of pure speculation. There was nothing to suggest it was because of Euphie. Besides, 1) it was an accident, 2) Suzaku suspected Lelouch was lying in his confession, and 3) as I mentioned earlier, Suzaku was no better.

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Again, what does that have to do with anything. The point is that Lelouch was suicidal during/after his meeting with Charles and would never have accomplished anything or thought up of Zero Requiem afterwards if it were not for the influence of Suzaku.
And again, you're going completely off of speculation. There was no indication Lelouch would have isolated himself after he got rid of Charles.

Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-06 at 22:19.
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Old 2012-08-06, 22:09   Link #9505
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Sure using geass still counts as being within the system. Why wouldn't it count as doing so? Lelouch's claim to the throne still had its legitimacy based on his royal heritage and all of his reforms/war declarations/tyranny/etc. were made through the channel of the Britannian system/government. Don't forget that Schniezel himself was planning a "coup" too. The entire basis/history of the Britannian royal system was filled with backstabbing/assassinations/conflict amongst the family members in the first place so I've got no idea why you'd say Suzaku aiding one of them in violently taking the throne would be "outside" the system.
While Lelouch does go with the "work within the system" means of fixing things, that was only ever half of Suzaku's philosophy. He was also all about doing things the "honest" way. Mind-raping people left and right isn't exactly the honest way. They merged their ideals to get things done: do it in the system and by whatever means necessary. Suzaku's initial plan was never right. He only got the right idea when he stopped caring about the morality of his actions.
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Old 2012-08-06, 22:14   Link #9506
blitz1/2
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oh my gosh, I thought we were done debating this!
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Old 2012-08-06, 23:08   Link #9507
azul120
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oh my gosh, I thought we were done debating this!
It's died down for the most part. Every now and then the debate just bubbles up again!
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Old 2012-08-06, 23:53   Link #9508
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
While Lelouch does go with the "work within the system" means of fixing things, that was only ever half of Suzaku's philosophy. He was also all about doing things the "honest" way. Mind-raping people left and right isn't exactly the honest way. They merged their ideals to get things done: do it in the system and by whatever means necessary. Suzaku's initial plan was never right. He only got the right idea when he stopped caring about the morality of his actions.
Well to be honest, that's pretty much the position I was eventually getting at. With regards to Suzaku's tenuous hold on morality, my reading is that he had pretty much abandoned himself and given that up the moment he witnessed the death of Euphie. Whereas Suzaku's earlier ideals were driven by self-hatred and suicidal tendencies over the sin of murdering his father, after Euphie's death Suzaku's hatred became outwards directed so that the only real principle guiding him was the pursuit of power. While throughout much of R2 Suzaku still experienced some internal struggle over not "becoming what he hated", by the time of the nuking of Tokyo Suzaku basically abandoned all pretenses of moral righteousness entirely. So in the end, I think the "honest" part of Suzaku's ideologies began fading away long before Lelouch and him decided to cooperate.

Meanwhile, Lelouch's initial hatred was outward directed, towards Britannia, but at the end of the story turned inward into a suicidal resolve in atonement for his sins, paralleling early Suzaku. So yeah, this was a deliberate inversion on the part of the authors. At the start of the story, Lelouch valued "ends" over "means", being willing to commit any atrocity in order to destroy Britannia ("become evil to destroy evil"), while Suzaku (having already committed an atrocity) was consumed by guilt and self-hatred; by the end of the story Suzaku became consumed by the pursuit of power by any means in order to achieve his objectives (i.e. paralleling Lelouch's early justification of continuing forward so that the blood which has already been lost is not wasted) whereas Lelouch came to acknowledge the weight of his sins and thereby resolve himself to die in atonement.

Lelouch's own initial plan was never right either: by committing atrocities, bearing sins, becoming evil himself to overcome the evil of Britannia, Lelouch was only continuing the chain of hatred (i.e. it was precisely because Suzaku was forced to "become evil for the sake of defeating evil" in trying to stop Lelouch that in the end he too was lead to abandon his morality). Whereas Suzaku's initial method would have only ended in his own death without accomplishing anything, Lelouch's initial method also only managed to exacerbate the pain and conflict. The resolution at the end of the story was thus a synthesis of initial Lelouch's hatred for the atrocities of others, and initial Suzaku's hatred for the atrocities of oneself, in the form of an "evil" which destroyed other "evils" by committing atrocities, but then atoned by destroying itself.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
What?!?! By what bizarro logic can committing even more horrendous atrocities than what he earlier did be considered redemption? Besides, it was Britannia who was at fault, and while he wasn't exactly a saint, he didn't always have less drastic options. Lelouch's earlier plan of beating Britannia via the Black Knight/UFN alliance would have worked if he wasn't such an unlucky bastard.

Plus, Euphie would NEVER want her name to be cleared that way. Not to mention Suzaku didn't want to do it.

And if Lelouch deserved to die, what about Cornelia, Guilford, Villetta, or Ohgi, for starters? Why do they get to live in the world they did NOTHING to deserve, or in the latter's case, nearly screw up?
Britannia was always too big to destroy externally. They were the largest empire/nation on the planet holding at all times the greatest wealth, technology, and industrial capacity. A war of destruction under the initiative of the UFN and the Black Knights could never have ended in anything other than more hatred, more death, and more tragedy. From the start, an internal reform/revolution of Britannia was the only solution which stood a chance at succeeding.

Lelouch deserved death in atonement above all those other people for his atrocities as the Emperor of Britannia. Those atrocities were in turn necessary to create the peaceful world Lelouch and Suzaku desired.

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Incorrect. He didn't force Lelouch to answer for Euphie. Lelouch wanted to do it of his own accord before shuffling out of the mortal world.

Besides, that would have just made Suzaku remain as hypocritically vindictive as ever. Suzaku was partly responsible for 35 million deaths in Japan, and as far as he and Lelouch knew, the death of Lelouch's other sister, Nunnally.
Suzaku would have killed Lelouch right then and there after Charles was gotten rid of if Lelouch had not shown his sincere intention to atone for Euphie. If Lelouch had not, Suzaku would have been entirely justified in killing him by the same terms of Lelouch's hypocrisy in committing atrocities to destroy Britannia; "become evil to defeat evil".

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What does it have to do with anything, you ask? Why is it that they get away with being mass murderers and occupiers, yet Lelouch is the one who has to die? Well, Schneizel doesn't completely get away with it given that he's a slave, but Cornelia is a pure Karma Houdini.
Lelouch was the one to die because he was the one who chose to take up the burden of committing irredeemable sins to bring peace to the world/destroy old Britannia. By any measure, Cornelia held herself to a higher moral standard than Lelouch did. Schniezel, meanwhile, was just as amoral as Lelouch was, which is why he was put under the thumb of Suzaku.

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You're going off of pure speculation. There was nothing to suggest it was because of Euphie. Besides, 1) it was an accident, 2) Suzaku suspected Lelouch was lying in his confession, and 3) as I mentioned earlier, Suzaku was no better.

And again, you're going completely off of speculation. There was no indication Lelouch would have isolated himself after he got rid of Charles.
See above. Suzaku's hatred/continued intention to kill Lelouch was what prompted Lelouch to realize he had to atone to end the chain of hatred/make up for his atrocities.


As for this:
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
oh my gosh, I thought we were done debating this!
I have no real interest in rehashing this discussion actually, personally, except that I had to talk down some of the truly delusional bullshit of that earlier Lelouch fanboy ("Lelouch won"? "Suzaku lost"? Jesus christ.).
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
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Old 2012-08-07, 15:53   Link #9509
azul120
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Well to be honest, that's pretty much the position I was eventually getting at. With regards to Suzaku's tenuous hold on morality, my reading is that he had pretty much abandoned himself and given that up the moment he witnessed the death of Euphie. Whereas Suzaku's earlier ideals were driven by self-hatred and suicidal tendencies over the sin of murdering his father, after Euphie's death Suzaku's hatred became outwards directed so that the only real principle guiding him was the pursuit of power. While throughout much of R2 Suzaku still experienced some internal struggle over not "becoming what he hated", by the time of the nuking of Tokyo Suzaku basically abandoned all pretenses of moral righteousness entirely. So in the end, I think the "honest" part of Suzaku's ideologies began fading away long before Lelouch and him decided to cooperate.

Meanwhile, Lelouch's initial hatred was outward directed, towards Britannia, but at the end of the story turned inward into a suicidal resolve in atonement for his sins, paralleling early Suzaku. So yeah, this was a deliberate inversion on the part of the authors. At the start of the story, Lelouch valued "ends" over "means", being willing to commit any atrocity in order to destroy Britannia ("become evil to destroy evil"), while Suzaku (having already committed an atrocity) was consumed by guilt and self-hatred; by the end of the story Suzaku became consumed by the pursuit of power by any means in order to achieve his objectives (i.e. paralleling Lelouch's early justification of continuing forward so that the blood which has already been lost is not wasted) whereas Lelouch came to acknowledge the weight of his sins and thereby resolve himself to die in atonement.

Lelouch's own initial plan was never right either: by committing atrocities, bearing sins, becoming evil himself to overcome the evil of Britannia, Lelouch was only continuing the chain of hatred (i.e. it was precisely because Suzaku was forced to "become evil for the sake of defeating evil" in trying to stop Lelouch that in the end he too was lead to abandon his morality). Whereas Suzaku's initial method would have only ended in his own death without accomplishing anything, Lelouch's initial method also only managed to exacerbate the pain and conflict. The resolution at the end of the story was thus a synthesis of initial Lelouch's hatred for the atrocities of others, and initial Suzaku's hatred for the atrocities of oneself, in the form of an "evil" which destroyed other "evils" by committing atrocities, but then atoned by destroying itself.
Zero Requiem was not going to close the chain either. Human nature abhors a vacuum. Besides, as I've said multiple times, one does not atone by committing greater evils.

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Britannia was always too big to destroy externally. They were the largest empire/nation on the planet holding at all times the greatest wealth, technology, and industrial capacity. A war of destruction under the initiative of the UFN and the Black Knights could never have ended in anything other than more hatred, more death, and more tragedy. From the start, an internal reform/revolution of Britannia was the only solution which stood a chance at succeeding.
Biggest, perhaps, but they were always at the risk of stretching themselves too thin. By the time the UFN was created, Lelouch's side had a legitimate shot at beating Britannia. Lest we forget, by the time he ended up on the other side, the UFN/Black Knights were so strong, they were jobbing Lelouch's Britannia so hard, he had to blow up Mt. Fuji to so much as have a shot.

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Lelouch deserved death in atonement above all those other people for his atrocities as the Emperor of Britannia. Those atrocities were in turn necessary to create the peaceful world Lelouch and Suzaku desired.
He didn't have to act as dictator in the first place! Besides, were we not talking about the stuff beforehand? You know, the stuff he was doing this all out of atonement? It was not necessary for him to act as a tyrant for peace. He could have just been a GOOD leader, and pinned the blame on Charles and Schneizel.

And those people I mentioned earlier interfered with his earlier attempts at peace, either as opponents or spanners.

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Suzaku would have killed Lelouch right then and there after Charles was gotten rid of if Lelouch had not shown his sincere intention to atone for Euphie. If Lelouch had not, Suzaku would have been entirely justified in killing him by the same terms of Lelouch's hypocrisy in committing atrocities to destroy Britannia; "become evil to defeat evil".
There's NOTHING that states this. You're going on pure speculation here. Besides, you're ignoring the part where I stated Suzaku was responsible for 35 million deaths, apparently including Nunnally. Which would have made Suzaku full of it.

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Lelouch was the one to die because he was the one who chose to take up the burden of committing irredeemable sins to bring peace to the world/destroy old Britannia. By any measure, Cornelia held herself to a higher moral standard than Lelouch did. Schniezel, meanwhile, was just as amoral as Lelouch was, which is why he was put under the thumb of Suzaku.
Higher moral standard? Then she's a flaming hypocrite. She murdered scores of civilians in the name of Britannian supremacy, and worse, she'll never have to answer for it.

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See above. Suzaku's hatred/continued intention to kill Lelouch was what prompted Lelouch to realize he had to atone to end the chain of hatred/make up for his atrocities.
No it wasn't. Again, you're going on pure speculation.
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Old 2012-08-07, 16:43   Link #9510
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Zero Requiem was not going to close the chain either. Human nature abhors a vacuum. Besides, as I've said multiple times, one does not atone by committing greater evils.
You're the one speculating here. Talking in pure narrative intentions, that was the blatant intended message of the authors. One atones for evils by self-sacrifice; but evil in itself was necessary to accomplish Lelouch's true objectives.

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Biggest, perhaps, but they were always at the risk of stretching themselves too thin. By the time the UFN was created, Lelouch's side had a legitimate shot at beating Britannia. Lest we forget, by the time he ended up on the other side, the UFN/Black Knights were so strong, they were jobbing Lelouch's Britannia so hard, he had to blow up Mt. Fuji to so much as have a shot.
Total war regardless of the timeline would've ended in millions of casualties. External conquest could never eliminate the warmongering aristocratic elements of Britannia either. Regardless of the military feasibility (you are forgetting that Schniezel and the Knights of Round would have been on Britannia's side, not against it, if it weren't for Lelouch's actions), you are ignoring the more important factor of costs and consequences (both immediate and long term).

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He didn't have to act as dictator in the first place! Besides, were we not talking about the stuff beforehand? You know, the stuff he was doing this all out of atonement? It was not necessary for him to act as a tyrant for peace. He could have just been a GOOD leader, and pinned the blame on Charles and Schneizel.

And those people I mentioned earlier interfered with his earlier attempts at peace, either as opponents or spanners.
Having had his identity revealed by Schniezel and authority revoked by the Black Knights, Lelouch would have been completely powerless following his disposal of Charles without his forceful commandment over Britannia. I don't know how you can reconcile "brainwash an entire government and army into obeying me while assassinating all of my political opponents" with "not be a dictator".

Abandoning his morality was necessary for Lelouch to achieve the power of the throne of Britannia in the first place. From the start the essential premise of Zero Requiem required Lelouch to have the resolve to make himself a demon (and, as a demon, be destroyed by Suzaku subsequently).

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There's NOTHING that states this. You're going on pure speculation here. Besides, you're ignoring the part where I stated Suzaku was responsible for 35 million deaths, apparently including Nunnally. Which would have made Suzaku full of it.
Rewatch the series. There is nothing speculative here. It was blatantly shown that the first thing Suzaku did in the World of C after Charles was dealt with was to reaffirm his intention to kill Lelouch.

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Higher moral standard? Then she's a flaming hypocrite. She murdered scores of civilians in the name of Britannian supremacy, and worse, she'll never have to answer for it.
Hypocrite or not (not, Cornelia merely lived by an imperialist/warrior morality which was perfectly respectable for the society that she grew up in) the fact remains that by the end of the series, characters like Cornelia or Ougi still lived by some sort of moral standards whereas Lelouch/Schniezel/Suzaku had abandoned morality entirely. In terms of being integrative to a stable, peacefully-functioning society, they had a natural suitability.
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Old 2012-08-07, 20:54   Link #9511
azul120
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You're the one speculating here. Talking in pure narrative intentions, that was the blatant intended message of the authors. One atones for evils by self-sacrifice; but evil in itself was necessary to accomplish Lelouch's true objectives.
It was something they accomplished poorly. Moreover, what he did passed off more as running away from his problems and leaving the newly created mess for everyone else to clean up. The writers needed a reality check. New problems would inevitably arise, yet they would be short the one leader who should have taken on the responsibility of helping protect the new world full bore.

Self-sacrifice doesn't mean having to become a martyr. He could have devoted practically every waking hour to making sure the world ran properly.

Moreover, Lelouch told Suzaku there were other methods when the latter felt uneasy about the whole thing, but it was what the former wanted.

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Total war regardless of the timeline would've ended in millions of casualties. External conquest could never eliminate the warmongering aristocratic elements of Britannia either. Regardless of the military feasibility (you are forgetting that Schniezel and the Knights of Round would have been on Britannia's side, not against it, if it weren't for Lelouch's actions), you are ignoring the more important factor of costs and consequences (both immediate and long term).
You're also ignoring the more immediate factor, and implications, of Lelouch becoming the worst person of all time. I really don't think he would have done that by kicking just a few puppies, considering what Charles was responsible for.

Lelouch could have used Charles and Schneizel as examples of Britannian tyranny to Britannians as well, and helped support someone like Nunnally as a proper leader.

Besides, the so-called peace wouldn't necessarily last, and they'd be at a relative deficit of competency without Lelouch.

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Having had his identity revealed by Schniezel and authority revoked by the Black Knights, Lelouch would have been completely powerless following his disposal of Charles without his forceful commandment over Britannia. I don't know how you can reconcile "brainwash an entire government and army into obeying me while assassinating all of my political opponents" with "not be a dictator".

Abandoning his morality was necessary for Lelouch to achieve the power of the throne of Britannia in the first place. From the start the essential premise of Zero Requiem required Lelouch to have the resolve to make himself a demon (and, as a demon, be destroyed by Suzaku subsequently).
Again you make leaps of presumption. Not being a dictator would mean not using his geass for the sake of brainwashing the government and soldiers while engaging in assassinations. Besides, he could actually explain to the Black Knights that he never abused his geass with him.

Not to mention that there were other options for beating Schneizel by Lelouch's own admission.

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Rewatch the series. There is nothing speculative here. It was blatantly shown that the first thing Suzaku did in the World of C after Charles was dealt with was to reaffirm his intention to kill Lelouch.
Oh, that line? That IS speculation, and an odd act of character regression at that. Suzaku had already confronted Lelouch about it in Turn 17 and caught the latter lying about deliberately geassing Euphie. Besides, he himself acknowledged himself a killer after the FLEIJA incident, so him still holding a vendetta for Euphie, over which he impeded Lelouch earlier on by selling out to the Emperor, would be hypocritical, not to mention inexplicable, considering he could have had Lelouch killed while he was still amnesiac.

Moreover, again, Suzaku was actually uneasy about Lelouch going through with ZR and asked Lelouch if there were other methods in the side materials.

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Hypocrite or not (not, Cornelia merely lived by an imperialist/warrior morality which was perfectly respectable for the society that she grew up in) the fact remains that by the end of the series, characters like Cornelia or Ougi still lived by some sort of moral standards whereas Lelouch/Schniezel/Suzaku had abandoned morality entirely. In terms of being integrative to a stable, peacefully-functioning society, they had a natural suitability.
Perhaps, but that doesn't excuse them from their own deeds or in Ohgi's case, responsibility in the betrayal, which led to Lelouch getting pushed off the deep end in the first place. (If nothing else, Ohgi getting a happy ending in spite of that is a travesty comparable to Jay Leno getting the Tonight Show back from Conan O'Brien even though it was Jay who sabotaged the latter in the first place.) Besides, Lelouch and Suzaku at least had the excuse of still being teens who went through a lot of crap with no real father figure, and were STILL shown to be capable of compassion and normalcy under regular circumstances, and thus integrative into a functioning society. Lelouch moreover would be far more useful as an ally for the reconstruction than the likes of Ohgi.

Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-07 at 21:26.
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Old 2012-08-17, 21:25   Link #9512
Dorsai
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What Lelouch wanted to get was similiar how world looks like now in reallity after Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-tung years of reign... In history it was always like this, people learn from mistakes and try to find way to prevent it in future- for example british Pax Britannica after defeating Napoleon in 1815 year to balance world...

Lelouch just believed in humans... That they will change world in they way they want it... Similiar how world changed now after two world wars and the Cold War and fall of communism... He cannot reign by himself, because it would be tyranny... It doesnt matter that he understand his mistakes, he understand them from begining of this series... From begining he wanted to only change the world, not to rule after... He knew that he will probably die in the end... It would be impossible to be good/saint ruler for him, dont matter how much he would try... It would be turanny in the end for sure, its just how he is...

About Suzaku- his plan was really naive... Thinking that after one conclusive victory there will be no more fighting? Its never work that way- until nation is completely anihilated there will be still people who will fight for freedom... My country (Poland) was under occupation of Germany (Prussia), Russia and Austrian Empire for 123 years, but we still fighted for freedom for all this years and finally gain it after WW1... Good that Lelouch saved him in the end making him Zero, because without it he would screw everything what Lelouch done again... Fortunately his job as Zero isnt hard and brain is not necessary...
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Old 2012-08-18, 02:56   Link #9513
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I disagree. Post-tyrannies don't automatically result in world peace. Look at how WWII led to the Cold War and a bunch of other stuff. Zero Requiem was an excuse for him to die since he had given up on life.

And there were people who were worse than Lelouch who still lived in the end. A lot of what Lelouch did during the rebellion was out of necessity. ZR went way beyond that in terms of both severity and unnecessariness. To say it was him making amends is illogical.

And the role of Zero DOES require brains, because that's part of the identity Lelouch established.
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Old 2012-08-18, 12:00   Link #9514
Xander
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We're back to the good old game, or so I see.

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I disagree. Post-tyrannies don't automatically result in world peace. Look at how WWII led to the Cold War and a bunch of other stuff.
The Cold War did not result in "world peace" but there never was a state of open global war between the major powers again and plenty of nations involved in the previous confrontation did enjoy a period of significant growth and overall stability. None of the local proxy conflicts led to World War III either, and the United Nations did provide a framework for the resolution or negotiation of several emerging disputes. In other words, that was far from a step back.

Naturally, the political conditions in Code Geass aren't identical to anything that happened in the real world, which makes any of these examples of extremely limited use, but the new world doesn't need to be absolutely peaceful in order to still represent a measurable improvement over the previous years of open warfare between great powers. Every single one of the main factions, including Britannia, needs time to rebuild and re-organize, so reaching a few diplomatic compromises over any outstanding issues is a matter of mutual convenience.

In any event, all of this is ultimately a matter of how much one wants to be a pessimist or optimist about an entirely fictional reality, when there is no way to confirm or deny what are purely personal assumptions and speculations about how the world would develop after the fact. There is not enough information to make any claims of objectivity here.

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And the role of Zero DOES require brains, because that's part of the identity Lelouch established.
It's also been established that Zero is essentially a symbol and, as a result, other people can take up the mantle of said symbol when necessary. Different circumstances call for different actions. Suzaku does not necessarily need to use all the same methods Lelouch employed, because he is not going to be accomplishing the same tasks.

His first public act was one of direct physical assault against a dictator and not making the settlement fall on him after a speech, which also marks the transition of Zero from extravagant rebel to his new role as the protector of the post-ZR status quo. He went from being an outsider to becoming a part of the system. If all else fails, Suzaku can always use his connections to handle any complicated matters behind-the-scenes.
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Old 2012-08-18, 16:40   Link #9515
azul120
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The type of peace CG suggests is complete world peace, which never happened in reality.

Under the system or not,Lelouch would work out better as Zero for the sake of a single, autonomous, strategic and charismatic figurehead, while Suzaku could remain a knight. Preservation of proficiency.
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Old 2012-08-18, 18:42   Link #9516
Xander
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The type of peace CG suggests is complete world peace, which never happened in reality.
Curiously enough, that's not exactly the conclusion I reached from what Lelouch said to Schneizel, what Lelouch said to Suzaku, what Cecile said to Rakhasta and what Kallen narrates during the epilogue. If you add all those together, I would say the suggestion is more nuanced than that, not just "instant peace from Chile to Madagascar, no problems included" until the end of time.

If you want to bring up reality despite its limited use, there have been shorter or longer periods of time without any major international wars, which is essentially what Lelouch wanted to stop more than anything else, and all the ending tells us about the nature of the current period of peace. The UFN isn't fighting Britannia, Britannia isn't fighting Japan, and even the E.U. is presumably trying to rebuild itself off-screen into something resembling unity. From what little we get to see, they are in fact at peace for now. Doesn't mean there can't be local conflicts at a much smaller scale, nor another world war in ten, twenty or fifty years. We just don't know what will happen, so it's silly to make statements of fact about this.

In a way, I sort of want them to make an R3 after a few more years, without contradicting anything that happened during the show and actually having Suzaku play the role assigned to him by Lelouch, just to prove that this isn't such a big deal in the long run. I may not wish to see it for other reasons, but that's another matter. Speaking of Suzaku...

Quote:
Under the system or not,Lelouch would work out better as Zero for the sake of a single, autonomous, strategic and charismatic figurehead, while Suzaku could remain a knight. Preservation of proficiency.
Lelouch could be better, at first glance, but that doesn't mean Suzaku can't do anything at all, when the new Zero is basically more of a knight (his role is to protect the peace and fight for justice) than a rebel mastermind (who wants to bring down the system even using dirty tricks). He's not completely alone in doing that either.
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Old 2012-08-18, 21:47   Link #9517
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The type of peace CG suggests is complete world peace, which never happened in reality.

Under the system or not,Lelouch would work out better as Zero for the sake of a single, autonomous, strategic and charismatic figurehead, while Suzaku could remain a knight. Preservation of proficiency.
I think people are forgetting that Lelouch never wanted to rule or lead any nation he was always planning on disappearing after the fall of Britannia.
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Old 2012-08-19, 00:24   Link #9518
azul120
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I think people are forgetting that Lelouch never wanted to rule or lead any nation he was always planning on disappearing after the fall of Britannia.
There was never really anything to that effect.

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Originally Posted by Xander
Lelouch could be better, at first glance, but that doesn't mean Suzaku can't do anything at all, when the new Zero is basically more of a knight (his role is to protect the peace and fight for justice) than a rebel mastermind (who wants to bring down the system even using dirty tricks). He's not completely alone in doing that either.
Lelouch could be as effective repurposing Zero as a protector of justice while keeping the same strategic, charismatic part of the MO with Suzaku as one of his main bodyguards.

Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-19 at 03:11.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:26   Link #9519
laithos
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the part on the last episode where toudou calls suzaku a "ugly being that just wants power" is legendary
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Old 2013-06-24, 22:50   Link #9520
Masurao45
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In case if everyone didn't know or notice, Suzaku's nickname "White Death" is also shared by Demar Griffe from After War Gundam X.
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