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Old 2012-08-17, 11:16   Link #30061
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The difference with Kinzo is that Kinzo's acts, if true, at least had some clear effect on him and drove him to repentance, and concrete steps were taken to actually atone. It isn't necessary that he be forgiven (and if everything said of him is true, perhaps everything he did isn't enough to make up for it); again, forgiveness is the prerogative of the people he wronged (and he wronged more than Yasu). But Kinzo's cowardice was far less than Yasu's alleged cowardice, so he at least stuck around to suffer for his own wrongs and do some good, suggesting he understands that his actions were not right.
I know this is mostly tangent to the discussion on morality, but I don't think that Kinzo apologizing to Yasu and giving her his fortune did any "good". His proxy apology is nothing more than a selfish act to fulfill his own psychological need for redemption. In terms of consequences, it resulted in psychological damage to Yasu as well as a great deal of tension regarding the inheritance which itself may well have seeded the tragedy.

Also, I believe that potentially any sin is forgivable as long as the sinner fully acknowledges and carries the weight of their sin. Of course this requires some level of post-sin moral evolution (because anyone who truly understands the depth of the wrong at the time wouldn't commit it in the first place). I agree that Kinzo did achieve moral growth in his later years (although we probably disagree on the level of forgiveness this allows).
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Old 2012-08-17, 13:19   Link #30062
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I know this is mostly tangent to the discussion on morality, but I don't think that Kinzo apologizing to Yasu and giving her his fortune did any "good". His proxy apology is nothing more than a selfish act to fulfill his own psychological need for redemption. In terms of consequences, it resulted in psychological damage to Yasu as well as a great deal of tension regarding the inheritance which itself may well have seeded the tragedy.
You seem to be forgetting the orphanage. That he started? That is incredibly generous to its alumni? Granted, the place existed before Yasu was even born, but again Yasu's not the only person he has wronged in his lifetime. Plus, he's kept the place going somehow even in his incapacity, so apparently he had orders to Genji to keep it operational.

He was also willing to give up his entire fortune to any person who happened to solve the epitaph.

His psychological conflict over Beatrice is potentially selfish, but how can we be sure? He's basically driven himself insane, which is quite unusual. If what he's feeling isn't grief, then what is it? Basically he can only really be wanting one of two things:
  • To "see her face again" because he selfishly derived pleasure from having possession of Beatrice; or
  • Genuine remorse for his actions, which were indirectly responsible for her death (and possibly for the death of the original Beatrice besides, though we can't know that for sure).
In the first case, sure, he's a selfish asshole. But can we be certain there wasn't at least a little of #2? The fact that he's not entirely successful in setting matters right doesn't mean he never intended to try. I think his actions at least suggest a greater moral depth to him than a selfish person who wants his favorite toy back. That doesn't mean he deserved forgiveness, just that he actually put some effort in.

Besides, anyone who can be as sentimental as he was writing the epitaph can't only be thinking about himself.
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Old 2012-08-17, 13:43   Link #30063
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I just want us to get back on track by clarifying that the culprit is undeniably George because he is unforgivably fat.
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Old 2012-08-17, 13:52   Link #30064
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Isn't this a Christian Theme? How many times should I forgive someone? I understand what Wanderer is saying, and I do agree: someone who has sinned may feel guilty after the fact. I feel like: "If you feel guilty, then you wouldn't have done it," isn't always true.

A human life is the most valuable thing in this world however, and at least in EP1-4, Ryukishi always made sure that we understood that.
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Old 2012-08-17, 14:47   Link #30065
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Isn't this a Christian Theme? How many times should I forgive someone? I understand what Wanderer is saying, and I do agree: someone who has sinned may feel guilty after the fact. I feel like: "If you feel guilty, then you wouldn't have done it," isn't always true.
Right, but a coward who kills themselves to avoid the consequences of their actions has no ability to feel guilty, and that's their fault.
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Old 2012-08-17, 15:58   Link #30066
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Isn't suicide tradicionaly regarded as a honourable way to atone in japanese culture? I'm sure values are not quite like that anymore, but I think some of that thematic is bound to exist more strongly over there than in our christian immersed ocident, even nowadays.
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Old 2012-08-17, 16:09   Link #30067
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Isn't suicide tradicionaly regarded as a honourable way to atone in japanese culture? I'm sure values are not quite like that anymore, but I think some of that thematic is bound to exist more strongly over there than in our christian immersed ocident, even nowadays.
I'm not sure it's viewed that way culturally for a mass murderer. One life given does not make up for twelve to sixteen lives taken.

It's a stupid moral notion anyway. Death is a cheap escape from consequences and always has been. It's better to live with the guilt and fail to achieve full atonement than to die without bothering to try. Hell, it's better to live with the guilt and not try to atone than to die. At least then the guilt's doing something.
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Old 2012-08-17, 16:36   Link #30068
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I just want us to get back on track by clarifying that the culprit is undeniably George because he is unforgivably fat.
This is true and is impossible to raise an argument against.
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Old 2012-08-17, 18:36   Link #30069
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I don't think that a promise was made that the games were solvable only by human means.
What would constitute a "promise" to you?
I'm really not sure what I was supposed to expect. A public declaration? A solemn oath?
What he wrote in his story is more than enough for me to deduce he was telling the readers that the gameboards must be solved through human means.


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The decision to kill herself (if she did, of course)
I don't think you've quite understood that I'm talking about the culprit of the gameboards and not about Rokkenjima prime. The word of God already declared that she killed herself.

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is her own act of cowardice to escape consequences. So it is entirely her fault that she cannot make amends for it. The point is that any apology offered by her or a character associated with her is false. It's a lie. She was never sorry about what she did, or else she would try to live with it and fix it (or, you know, not do it). Maybe she would have been, but she never actually was, because she died (maybe).
That's just like your interpretation, Renall. I think you're quite biased by christian influences here. And mind that I come from the same cultural background so I know where you're coming from, but I'm sure you've heard about Seppuku before, and I'm sure you know it's not regarded as an act of cowardice in Japanese culture.
In the first place the concept of suicide as a sin is something that didn't even exist in Japan before christians arrived.
The bottom line is that in Japan it's actually the reverse of what you claim, suicide is actually seen as the ultimate act of atonement for a grave sin.

You may disagree with it, but if one does so believing that he can atone through that, you can't say he consciously escapes responsibilities if he sincerely thinks that that is the best way to take those responsibilities upon himself.

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Her meta-self isn't her. It's basically Ange or Battler wishing she was sorry. We have no way of knowing she actually would be sorry, and frankly I cannot buy her killing and being sorry.
And how exactly can you say that what we've seen about Kinzo asking forgiveness is more reliable than meta Beatrice saying the same things?
If you truly believed that we don't know whether she was remorsful or not, you would at least give her the benefit of the doubt.
You don't.
You inexplicably decided that she was never sorry for what she did and that she'd never be even if she didn't die. Even though it's hinted that she was, even though it's extremely improbable that Ryuukishi really thought of Yasu as someone as heartless and cold to not feel sorry.
If he made Kinzo be that sorry do you honestly think that he wouldn't make Yasu do the same? Oh, wait... he did. Except you dismiss that as a mere interpretation from Battler's part and not the truth of the story he read. Even though he's supposed to have understood everything about it.


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If such a clear answer is intended, why is he being so evasive? For example, why didn't he just come out and say that in ep8? Why doesn't he very explicitly state the who/how/whendunnit? I don't disagree with you that it's true he teases this notion, but he also seems to try to dance around confirming or denying the specific interpretations of the facts. That's just awfully weird. If it's so clear-cut he can joke about it in interviews, why is it something he couldn't write in concretely to the work?
Didn't he basically clearcut told us that Shannon murdered George, Gohda and then killed herself in Ep2? Didn't he implicitly admitted that Keya's theory that Shannon shot herself in EP4 is also true? Doesn't our confession esplicitly show us a Yasu culprit?
I think that about Yasu = culprit of the gameboards, it's more the people that are trying hard to find ambiguity in Ryuukishi's words than an actual ambiguity on his part.
If it wasn't for the general ambiguity of his work that made us doubt anything, this wouldn't even be a matter of discussions.

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I'm not sure it's viewed that way culturally for a mass murderer. One life given does not make up for twelve to sixteen lives taken.
Alas in Japan and the very state you live in that's how the law makes one "repay" for mass murder.
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Old 2012-08-17, 19:58   Link #30070
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It's a stupid moral notion anyway.
I've been told that ritual suicide was actually a mean to take responsibility.
Committing suicide isn't as easy as it can look (actually in the ritual suicide you had to disembowl youself which doesn't look exactly the cutest way to die) and it was done so that others who were under you (and therefore had to obey to you no discussion allowed) wouldn't be punished as well.

It was sort of 'I sinned, I deserve to die, so I'll show I'm brave enough to face consequences of my actions and deal the punishment to myself by myself.'

That's at least how I've been told it worked originally and it was pretty practical as it spared people from doing all the work of condemning the guy and killing him (because usually the punishment would have been death sentence not live trying to atone), it spared the ones under him from the worst of the repercussions and it was a way for him to atone.

On the other side I don't think Yasu wanted to atone by killing herself (otherwise in EP 4 she could at least tell Battler how to escape and save him), nor to escape punishment (she has lot of money... I'm sure she could find a way to organize an escape).

It's as if she'd already decided she's not fit to live and so she has to die but she wants to play a last game with Battler first.

It looks like a poor attempt to copy '10 little indians' only there the culprit was about to die for an illness (so he didn't really mind to speed up things) and he believed he was passing judgement on murderers the justice couldn't reach. And personally I also think he was insane and with a God complex as while the reader knows that some of the guys are surely murderers, he just have a circumstancial evidence that's even more vague than the one against Natsuhi in the baby murder incident... and he even condemned a person because the reaction of another person to her actions was suicide...

...about the forgiving matter...

Being forgiven has nothing to do with deserving forgiveness.
I can forgive someone even if he doesn't deserve it and I can refuse to forgive someone even if he did all he could to deserve it.

We can't say for sure that Yasu surely didn't feel regret. She could have felt it in her last moments, in her last seconds, when she had already pushed the trigger and it was too late to do something about it. In the movies, for drama effect, a guy always have lot of time to make a long talk about how sorry he is for what he did.
Honestly though, as she presumably died, the point isn't if she felt sorry or not, it's why she thought they deserved it in the first place.

In short if she was temporally in a mental state in which she wasn't thinking straight anymore and had ended up doing something she would have found morally despicable had she been able to think at it rationally, or if this was how Yasu was, in short a person with no moral values that would make her think that taking a life for a game is wrong.

The problem is that Yasu's inner state and beliefs aren't addressed clearly.
We're told she was suffering for Battler lack of return only in Ep 7 (in the other episodes she mostly seemed happy to be engaged to George as Shannon and honestly caring for Jessica as Kanon, who also slowly began fighting to have chances with Jessica. She's not, though, looking particularly interested in Battler) but we're also told she found a way to cope with it... which is, is up on the interpretation of the reader.

Then we're told she solved the epitaph, but this made her more harm that good but... we aren't clearly told why apart that this gave her the means to do what she did later.

It's possible to assume that being told she had a body unable to love/be loved broke her but the point isn't really discussed that much.

What the other episodes implied is that she was unable to pick up someone between George and Jessica and when she sort of came to a decision (and it's not said which one it is, it could be to kill herself to spare herself the trouble to choose as it could be to escape with the first who asked her/him to marry him/her) Battler returned and she felt even more confuse.

Personally it's a little too little to empathize with her, to think that if I were in her shoes I would have done the same.

I end up having to make up in my mind which might have been her mental state, shaping it in a way that might make 'acceptable' for her to 'snap', acceptable not as in 'morally acceptable' but as in 'expected as a normal consequence of what she went through'.

However there's little to work with and I feel like I'm making up things and while it's fun to make them up... well, the novel is missing the pieces that would insure that I wouldn't stry too far from what the real PieceYasu felt.

Though I wonder if this wasn't done on purpose.

I mean... when we discuss things we come all out as pretty different people with different beliefs. It's possible to assume that what for me would be enough to make me sympathize with Yasu, might not be enough to make everyone else sympathize with her and the same can likely apply to everyone here.
So Ryukishi might have planned to have us becoming the 'lawyers of Yasu's defence'.

If we've love for her we might find an explanation for her behaviour we'll find acceptable and excusable.
If we don't love her no explanation might make such behaviour excusable.

Psychologically speaking, it works. Many people would try to excuse their loved ones were they to commit a crime, even a hideous one, because... well, that's simply how the mind work. You can't accept your loved one did something horrible so, when it's proved he did it and there's no way it can be denied and denial doesn't help... well, you make up reasons for him to do so because you simply can't accept him to do so without a good reason.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, that's how many human minds work.

Narratively speaking it feels like cheating. It's generally the author who's supposed to write the character in such a way the reader will empathize with him/her, not the reader.

Sure, there are litterary works that are up to the personal interpretation but, as far as I know, they give you a detailed description of the facts, so that you can express a judgement, they don't give you circumstancial evidence and expect you'll twist it to fit your beliefs... unless the mood in litterature is changing.

Maybe what Ryukishi is doing is... modern or common in Japan.
CLAMP, with whom Ryukishi worked, recently did the same in one of their stories so maybe that's the last trend in wring stories... -_-
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Old 2012-08-17, 20:39   Link #30071
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's just like your interpretation, Renall. I think you're quite biased by christian influences here. And mind that I come from the same cultural background so I know where you're coming from, but I'm sure you've heard about Seppuku before, and I'm sure you know it's not regarded as an act of cowardice in Japanese culture.
In the first place the concept of suicide as a sin is something that didn't even exist in Japan before christians arrived.
The bottom line is that in Japan it's actually the reverse of what you claim, suicide is actually seen as the ultimate act of atonement for a grave sin.
And they are wrong. Why should I care what their culture thinks? It is cowardly to intentionally end one's own existence rather than accept consequence for one's own actions. Death imposed upon oneself is not consequence, and never will be.
Quote:
You may disagree with it, but if one does so believing that he can atone through that, you can't say he consciously escapes responsibilities if he sincerely thinks that that is the best way to take those responsibilities upon himself.
That's nonsense. The very same logic is what justifies a lunatic committing murder because they believe everything will be okay and that is clearly wrong, isn't it?
Quote:
You inexplicably decided that she was never sorry for what she did and that she'd never be even if she didn't die. Even though it's hinted that she was, even though it's extremely improbable that Ryuukishi really thought of Yasu as someone as heartless and cold to not feel sorry.
If he made Kinzo be that sorry do you honestly think that he wouldn't make Yasu do the same? Oh, wait... he did. Except you dismiss that as a mere interpretation from Battler's part and not the truth of the story he read. Even though he's supposed to have understood everything about it.
She never had any opportunity to be sorry, because she died. She intentionally did so to avoid having to be sorry. Once dead, she is no longer capable of remorse.

She is a despicable and evil person, the way you're trying to spin it. Nothing more. At best the evidence suggests she might have been sorry, but she never actually was because she was dead.
Quote:
Alas in Japan and the very state you live in that's how the law makes one "repay" for mass murder.
You haven't paid attention to (or have forgotten) some discussions of justice that we have had in the past. Execution is an act of retributive justice, which is both the oldest and most morally questionable form. It isn't punitive (because you can't learn anything from a punishment that kills you) and it isn't rehabilitative (same idea). It's little more than sanctioned vengeance to satisfy a desire to see something bad happen to someone who has done bad things.

It can't ever be truly retributive anyway since, again, one life doesn't trade for a dozen, and you can't very well execute a person twelve times and call it square. There is little purpose to retributive justice outside of financial restitution. If you really want to extract retribution for society for the lives taken by a mass murderer, perhaps she should be put to work saving and restoring lives.

But that would be difficult, so it's easier for society and cowardly criminals to believe trading their lives is sufficient to make up for the wrong.
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Old 2012-08-17, 21:03   Link #30072
Wanderer
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You seem to be forgetting the orphanage. That he started? That is incredibly generous to its alumni? Granted, the place existed before Yasu was even born, but again Yasu's not the only person he has wronged in his lifetime. Plus, he's kept the place going somehow even in his incapacity, so apparently he had orders to Genji to keep it operational.
I think it's a good thing, but I don't think the orphanage has anything to do with Kinzo's sins against Beatrice II.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
His psychological conflict over Beatrice is potentially selfish, but how can we be sure? He's basically driven himself insane, which is quite unusual. If what he's feeling isn't grief, then what is it? Basically he can only really be wanting one of two things:
  • To "see her face again" because he selfishly derived pleasure from having possession of Beatrice; or
  • Genuine remorse for his actions, which were indirectly responsible for her death (and possibly for the death of the original Beatrice besides, though we can't know that for sure).
In the first case, sure, he's a selfish asshole. But can we be certain there wasn't at least a little of #2? The fact that he's not entirely successful in setting matters right doesn't mean he never intended to try. I think his actions at least suggest a greater moral depth to him than a selfish person who wants his favorite toy back. That doesn't mean he deserved forgiveness, just that he actually put some effort in.

Besides, anyone who can be as sentimental as he was writing the epitaph can't only be thinking about himself.
I'm only objecting to the notion that Kinzo "did some good" as some kind of partial atonement. I do believe that Kinzo felt genuine remorse for his sins, so I can forgive him for that; but, he still completely failed to atone for them. To live the rest of his life wallowing in self pity and remorse is not "doing good". Neither is apologizing to the wrong person or favoring Yasu with his wealth. I don't care how sorry he was, these are still misplaced, selfish acts which do not accomplish any kind of actual "good" by the standards of deontological, consequentialist, or any other kind of ethics system I know of.

Awesome Grandpa Kinzo from EP8 was sincerely remorseful for his sins, but instead of just "feeling sorry" and "apologizing" he devoted his life to bring joy, happiness, and stability to those around him. That is atonement.

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Isn't this a Christian Theme?
Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. It's true; this idea of atonement by confession alone is very Christian isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What would constitute a "promise" to you?
I'm really not sure what I was supposed to expect. A public declaration? A solemn oath?
What he wrote in his story is more than enough for me to deduce he was telling the readers that the gameboards must be solved through human means.
A red statement, perhaps? All that was ever clear was that the stories were "solvable" and that the witch side must only do things possible by humans. Honestly, just the fact that we're supposed to cross-reference several different stories to find the answer already makes understanding the motive a meta process.

You can look at it this way: You can try to solve each gameboard individually, "by human means" (in which case there is no reason to assume the culprit is always the same) or you can try to solve the overall message of all the gameboards by a meta-process, in which case the answer is Yasu.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-08-18 at 02:55.
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Old 2012-08-17, 21:35   Link #30073
jjblue1
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And they are wrong. Why should I care what their culture thinks?
Because it's morally debatable to impose what you or your culture think on another population?

I'm sure you don't mean to but you're sounding like some religious extremist.

I share your view on suicide but the way you're expressing it is making me uncomfortable.

Also I don't really want to get into a debate about a cultural belief/behaviour when I don't have a detailed knowledge of said cultural belief that would allow me to express an informed judgement.

And anyway the problem isn't if it's right or wrong per se.

Yasu is Japanese and embraces the Japanese culture. We can't really expect from her to act like an Italian, an American, a German or a French.

Regardless of what Ryukishi might think about, he's more likely to describe Yasu as acting like an ordinary Japanese because, after all, the target for Umineko are Japanese people and the work must fit with their moral standards and culture, not with ours.

So yes, her culture is a deciding factor into influencing her behaviour and one I have to consider each time I take in my hands a work that comes from a foreign nation.

(Also I find silly how in certain movies a person from culture X acts as if were of culture Y, which is different from his, because the movies is done by people of culture Y...)

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I'm only objecting to the notion that Kinzo "did some good" as some kind of partial atonement. I do believe that Kinzo felt genuine remorse for his sins, so I can forgive him for that; but, he still completely failed to atone for them. To live the rest of his life wallowing in self pity and remorse is not "doing good". Neither is apologizing to the wrong person or favoring Yasu with his wealth. I don't care how sorry he was, these are still misplaced, selfish acts which do not accomplish any kind of actual "good" by the standards of deontological, consequentialist, or any other kind of ethics system I know of.

Awesome Grandpa Kinzo from EP8 was sincerely remorseful for his sins, but instead of just "feeling sorry" and "apologizing" he devoted his life to bring joy, happiness, and stability to those around him. That is atonement.
It's interesting how each of us have a different view on what could constitute as atonement.

The scary thing this sort of enforce my fear that Ryukishi gave us so little info about Yasu because he wanted us to make up them according to our beliefs and our feelings toward her... and I don't really like that option.

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Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. It's true; this idea of atonement by confession alone is very Christian isn't it?
Well, it's not just confession, there must be honest regret for what you did and wish to amend as well as determination to never do it again. The tricky part is that only God can check if you're feeling all those stuffs. Of course the idea is that if He finds out you're merely confessing and not feeling anything of the above and that's all the absolution you received is void of any value. Though since this is a private thing between you and God no one else can know.

Also, as you can still feel all of that but then be too weak to act upon your resolution, you can still sin again and confess again, think you're firm in your regret and will to do better and then fail again in a neverending cycle...
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Old 2012-08-18, 01:27   Link #30074
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Well, it's not just confession, there must be honest regret for what you did and wish to amend as well as determination to never do it again. The tricky part is that only God can check if you're feeling all those stuffs. Of course the idea is that if He finds out you're merely confessing and not feeling anything of the above and that's all the absolution you received is void of any value. Though since this is a private thing between you and God no one else can know.

Also, as you can still feel all of that but then be too weak to act upon your resolution, you can still sin again and confess again, think you're firm in your regret and will to do better and then fail again in a neverending cycle...
I chose my earlier words poorly. My point is that in Christianity worldly action is irrelevant to atoning for worldly sin.
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Old 2012-08-18, 01:36   Link #30075
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It looks like a poor attempt to copy '10 little indians' only there the culprit was about to die for an illness (so he didn't really mind to speed up things) and he believed he was passing judgement on murderers the justice couldn't reach. And personally I also think he was insane and with a God complex as while the reader knows that some of the guys are surely murderers, he just have a circumstancial evidence that's even more vague than the one against Natsuhi in the baby murder incident... and he even condemned a person because the reaction of another person to her actions was suicide...
Small digression.

Regarding And Then There Were None, it was really interesting to me that despite the culprits pretty meticulous setup, and certain intent of killing all the people, there was, like ... NO plan to actually murder the last three victims, and the culprit seemed, going by the confession letter, perfectly willing to accept the very real possibility that the last few survivors would find him out and corner him, or just not-be-crazy and escape unharmed. Damned Vera and her hysterics.

More on topic, when it comes to forgiveness, I kinda divorce Yasu and Beatrice. Like, I can see forgiving "Beatrice", because the meta-entity that she represents far more than "some crazy love sick girl", but I don't see that forgiveness extending to Yasu at all despite their obvious connection.
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Old 2012-08-18, 09:15   Link #30076
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I chose my earlier words poorly. My point is that in Christianity worldly action is irrelevant to atoning for worldly sin.
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On another hand...

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"............Yes... Then, ...me too. .........The story of a cowardly girl, ......who couldn't muster the courage, ......to tell the boy she loved that she did love him, much, much more often. ......And, ......the story of how that girl, after being given a miracle by god to be reunited with that boy, .........used that chance to muster up her courage."
it's a quote from Ep 3. It's actually said by Jessica but doesn't it fit Yasu as well?
I wonder if it's an hint of what had happened in Prime between Yasu and Battler...

While going back to EvaBeatrice's request to guess what went on Kyrie's mind...
though presented as 'you've to explain why there's a contradiction in her behaviour', isn't it actually a 'find the motive for her actions, her "why dunnit?"'

I wonder if this is a direct hint that we should search for the culprit's motive... though since everything is so vague and even Battler's explanation about the 'why dunnit' of Kyrie might be wrong I don't really know...

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Small digression.

Regarding And Then There Were None, it was really interesting to me that despite the culprits pretty meticulous setup, and certain intent of killing all the people, there was, like ... NO plan to actually murder the last three victims, and the culprit seemed, going by the confession letter, perfectly willing to accept the very real possibility that the last few survivors would find him out and corner him, or just not-be-crazy and escape unharmed. Damned Vera and her hysterics.
Well, I think that situation would turn people crazy though considering what Vera did at the end (and it's a move that as far as I'm involved I find out of character) maybe she was crazy already.

Though yes, he didn't really have a bright plan. I think he figured that the last survivors, being the ones that lacked in the morality department the most would try to turn one against the other and this could work at his advantage if he were to manage to hide his ... lack of being death.


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More on topic, when it comes to forgiveness, I kinda divorce Yasu and Beatrice. Like, I can see forgiving "Beatrice", because the meta-entity that she represents far more than "some crazy love sick girl", but I don't see that forgiveness extending to Yasu at all despite their obvious connection.
Hum... with Yasu you mean PieceYasu or PrimeYasu?
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Old 2012-08-18, 11:23   Link #30077
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I chose my earlier words poorly. My point is that in Christianity worldly action is irrelevant to atoning for worldly sin.
Only some forms of Protestants. That is kind of a theological minefield in Christianity though and we should probably not go down that road. Also, secular humanism/science of morality/atheist ethics/etc. would agree along the same lines, since those philosophies divorce the notion of any sort of divine judgment and emphasize moral human behavior independent of notions like God or an afterlife. As a necessary consequence of that, they emphasize behaving morally while alive. One's Maat need not meet the standards of Anubis to judge a person appropriately by their behavior and actions on earth.

And to be quite clear, I'm not saying suicide is cowardice. I'm saying suicide to escape the need to feel guilt for the murders of a dozen people is cowardice. Even if one accepts the premise that the culprit would have felt sorry for the act, the apparent fact of the matter (unless of course they did survive) is that they didn't. It's pretty twisted if they actually believed they'd be forgiven in the "Golden Land" without really having to make any amends for it, which they did not.

Plus, you know, they appear to have covered up the truth of their actions and made only a tremendously indirect confession. That is not usually the mark of genuine contrition and it should devalue any atonement one believes a suicide provides, if one believes it provides any at all.
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Old 2012-08-18, 11:51   Link #30078
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And to be quite clear, I'm not saying suicide is cowardice. I'm saying suicide to escape the need to feel guilt for the murders of a dozen people is cowardice. Even if one accepts the premise that the culprit would have felt sorry for the act, the apparent fact of the matter (unless of course they did survive) is that they didn't. It's pretty twisted if they actually believed they'd be forgiven in the "Golden Land" without really having to make any amends for it, which they did not.

Plus, you know, they appear to have covered up the truth of their actions and made only a tremendously indirect confession. That is not usually the mark of genuine contrition and it should devalue any atonement one believes a suicide provides, if one believes it provides any at all.
Honestly I've hard time thinking Yasu suicided out of guilt or out of will not to face that guilt.
If there was guilt she would have at least tried to save Battler, Rosa and Maria in Ep 2 or Battler in Ep 4.
Killing herself seems to be a coscentius decision done in order to follow a certain plan.

Only normally people go through this when they've something to gain like: I'll kill myself in such a manner it wouldn't look like suicide so my son will get my life insurance money. Or, I'm about to die and I've a grudge against you so I kill you in such a manner you'll look like the culprit so you'll be punished.

But what does PieceYasu obtain by killing herself? Sure, she creates an interesting mystery but then? PieceBattler can't access to red truth. Ep 4 is completely unsolvable for him. All he could deduce is that the others lied about magic but everyone could have orchestrated that mass murder with some tricks. The most suspicious might be Kanon but as he apparently has no means to connect him with Shannon, what can he deduce? How would this help him remember the promise?

He can't be expected to act like Erika who forced her way into crime scenes and could perform detailed analysis that would allow her to find fingertips and such.
If he's told by one of the adults 'do not enter in the room' he's supposed not to so... expecting Battler to solve the crime feels pretty absurd.

By default PieceYasu's demand for him to solve it is completely illogical.
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Old 2012-08-18, 20:52   Link #30079
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to avoid the consequences of their actions has no ability to feel guilty
I am also not sure it's fair to say she felt no guilt. In fact, suicide might be a sign of just how guilty she felt, if she were truly an emotionless psycho then why would she feel the need to kill herself? She could have easily escaped consequences other ways. I would agree that it could be seen as a cowardly way to avoid guilt and many would say it is better to try and atone. But many people believe that if they have committed a sin so disgusting they cannot repay it they should kill themselves to make up for it (and maybe also avoid the fallout too), at least for a long enough period to try. It only takes a brief period of emotion if you truly want to kill yourself, when you think about it its odd so many attempts fail when at any minute any one of us could instantly poison ourselves with any number of things in our house. Actually, with Yasu's past and emotional instability I'm surprised there wasn't a hint about previous suicide attempts somewhere.

I don't remember Ryu word of godding her suicide....
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Old 2012-08-19, 08:03   Link #30080
Kealym
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I wonder if this is a direct hint that we should search for the culprit's motive... though since everything is so vague and even Battler's explanation about the 'why dunnit' of Kyrie might be wrong I don't really know...
I assume Battler solution was correct, since Evatrice couldn't counter it, and the fact that he has to find "a reasonable motive" in a gameboard that seems to be ful of UNreasonable ones is what's most perplexing...

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Though yes, he didn't really have a bright plan. I think he figured that the last survivors, being the ones that lacked in the morality department the most would try to turn one against the other and this could work at his advantage if he were to manage to hide his ... lack of being death.
True, the confession pretty much says "I was waiting for this moment, to have three people so frightened of each other anything might happen, and one had a guh". But, still, no actual plan other than "they'll probably do something."

In hindsight, Blore only left the final group ... to go get food from the mansion. Now I wonder if he wanted to investigate something under a false pretense. XD
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Hum... with Yasu you mean PieceYasu or PrimeYasu?
Um ... PrimeYasu, I guess. I more or less mean both (I can't deny that Shannon and Kanon are implied several times to have meta-motives they can't really help), but ... I'unno, you reread EP2, when Shannon breaks down into tears at ROsa's accusations, and I read it with this sort of ire, "You shameless, horrible girl." And in EP4 she seems to just be kind of a bastard in general.

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He can't be expected to act like Erika who forced her way into crime scenes and could perform detailed analysis that would allow her to find fingertips and such.
If he's told by one of the adults 'do not enter in the room' he's supposed not to so... expecting Battler to solve the crime feels pretty absurd.
I''ve been thinking about Erika and bit, and how she keeps referring to the residents of Ushiromiya as "ghosts from 1986" that need to acknowledge that they're just dead. And, isn't she also a ghost of 1986, though? As soon as the first person inserted her into a forgery, she became just as "trapped" in those two days as the other 18 humans.

When you apply this to the fact that she's Bern's piece, and captain of the goats, though, it becomes like, this warped fictional version of Erika (who forgery authors are more than willing to characterize as an insufferable prat for the sake of their Knox enforcement) is the weapon that allows people to "do as they please" on Rokkenjima, as writers / theorists.

Oh man, and then Erika's proposition to the Golden Land in EP8 felt like "Surrender some kind of solution, and we'll acknowledge your tale as actually well written literature, and worth reading." and Beatrice was essentially "NOOO" and I think EP8 managed a few pretty cool things for all it's silliness.
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