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Old 2006-01-02, 00:11   Link #101
demon_god04
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wait wait so.... just what hell did Talia put Athrun through? seriously?

You make it sound like Kira has the no kill policy as a way of alleviating his guilt and that he doesnt care if anyone dies as long as long as its not HIS hands that are bloody....... wait that pretty much what GSD showed us isent it.

Athrun isent obligated to do ANYTHING for Talia that is correct, but thinking of the character that Athrun was in GS and to a certain extent in GSD as well, he doesnt seem like a person that would stand by and let someone die especially with what he has been through.
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Old 2006-01-02, 00:19   Link #102
Moon Eclipse
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Actually, ME, you had it right in the very last line. They prioritized their own needs and desires above the needs and desires of the rest of the universe. You know, kind of like the blood money I earn (believe me, it IS blood money) working for 8 hours a day 5 days a week in the summer doesn't just go to some charity, but goes to buy me books, or a new computer, or something.

So yes, if you accuse them of that, you're absolutely right. They prioritize their own needs over everyone else's, they fight what THEY believe in, not Durandall, nor any of his supporters. They want things their way, and when they can fight for what they want, they WILL. It's actually called BEING HUMAN, which goes back to my point to begin with. They're HUMAN, not demigods. They really aren't there too much for the world. They're there because they have a claim to stake that connects to them personally, especially after Darth Gichou probably (well, he did, but Kira never found that out with hard proof) sent those assassins after Lacus, and was undoubtedly trying to kill her after that.

So it's about Durandall being a threat to the CF personally that he had to die. The Destiny Plan didn't help his case either by getting the CF more evidence to come after him, and nor did his manipulation of sweet, innocent Mia. And Mia died too . Bastard Gichou.
Yet somehow they believe them to be doing Mankind a service by being selfish like that. Thus the arrogant comment from Gil. Phrase it however you want, Kira and Lacus though under the banner of salvation work torward their own arrogant end. They do jack to better the world on their off time, yet somehow they know what's best. The 'goddess' is always right.

Kira himself admitted that his own actions would cause wars. That he because of his selfish nature would doom the rest of humanity to endless violence, chaos and destruction. You're right they are humans, not gods. They should stop playing with people's lives as if there were gods.

If your excuse is that because they have the power to do so that makes it right, then you can no longer blame Gil, Rey, Shinn or anyone else for doing what the do.

Again with the 'they' decide what's best for mankind and who gets to live or die. I didn't know vigalantism was something to be praised. Mia died cause she jumped in the way of a bullet, hardly what I'd call Gil's fault. More like Mia's stupidity.
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Old 2006-01-02, 00:27   Link #103
Demongod86
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Athrun might not stand around waiting for someone to die, but I don't think he has time to argue Talia's decision when she points a gun at him in a collapsing asteroid, and also after the crap he himself has been through on her ship. A guy's kindness only goes so far!

Also, Kira and the Clyne Faction fight only when it PERSONALLY affects them. Did you see Kira saying "Lacus, imma whip out the Freedom and KICK SOME ASS" when Kira saw the nukes go off in space? Did you see Kira really want to enter the war when Shinn was fighting for his life outside of Orb's waters in ep 12? Nope...

Kira's like a rodent...only crawls out of his burrow when threatened...but he's like a pikachu compared to the rest of the regular mice...once he's pissed, you're in for a shock! I can't believe I just said that. But you get the idea...Kira fights when he has his own interests at stake. Him and Lacus deciding what's best for humanity is a side-effect. Whenever they fought, they fought for what they believed in, and their own interests. The rest of humanity can do whatever the hell it wants, and so long as Kira and Lacus aren't personally affected, the rest of humanity can go to hell. They're very human characters, if you look deep enough.

Mia died because she was cursed of contributing to a malady on Lacus. If she lived, she would have been the only person that somehow caused something bad for Lacus and lived. Still, I think Lacus would have preferred Mia alive and in the angel bath on top of her rather than dead. (Ooh, good image!)
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Old 2006-01-02, 00:34   Link #104
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Athrun doesn't have the time to say, "Captain Gladys don't do this, death solves nothing...Think about that child you have...He loves you doesn't he?
(Athrun then flashbacks to him loosing his own mother in Junius explosion)

Demongod get a clue...
That came to me in like 5 seconds...Fukuda I own you in plot gimmicks XD
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Old 2006-01-02, 01:06   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Athrun might not stand around waiting for someone to die, but I don't think he has time to argue Talia's decision when she points a gun at him in a collapsing asteroid, and also after the crap he himself has been through on her ship. A guy's kindness only goes so far!

Also, Kira and the Clyne Faction fight only when it PERSONALLY affects them. Did you see Kira saying "Lacus, imma whip out the Freedom and KICK SOME ASS" when Kira saw the nukes go off in space? Did you see Kira really want to enter the war when Shinn was fighting for his life outside of Orb's waters in ep 12? Nope...

Kira's like a rodent...only crawls out of his burrow when threatened...but he's like a pikachu compared to the rest of the regular mice...once he's pissed, you're in for a shock! I can't believe I just said that. But you get the idea...Kira fights when he has his own interests at stake. Him and Lacus deciding what's best for humanity is a side-effect. Whenever they fought, they fought for what they believed in, and their own interests. The rest of humanity can do whatever the hell it wants, and so long as Kira and Lacus aren't personally affected, the rest of humanity can go to hell. They're very human characters, if you look deep enough.

Mia died because she was cursed of contributing to a malady on Lacus. If she lived, she would have been the only person that somehow caused something bad for Lacus and lived. Still, I think Lacus would have preferred Mia alive and in the angel bath on top of her rather than dead. (Ooh, good image!)
Actually I did see him sticking his nose in a lot of places that didn't belong. And the only reason they didn't is cause they hadn't decided what they wanted to do. Once they did, they got into a fight everywhere. The attack by the destroys did not directly affect them at all but the still were there. The battle between EA and ZAFT with Athrun in the middle did not affect him personally, he still stuck his nose. (if you're going to say it's cause of Cagalli, that girl abandoned ORB the moment things got heated. She has no right to dictate jack to anyone). Seems to me nothing actually has anything to do with Kira, he just seems to like to make things his business.

Kira not wanting to fight Shinn is just another hypocracy. He has these long speeches about not wanting to fight, he fights and kills anyways. He kills when he doesn't feel the desire to extend out the effort not to kill. He goes directly to the fortress to put a cap in Gil's ass to make sure he's dead. The whole talk about what humanity wanted. Humanity wanted peace, Gil was going to give it to them. Kira though "screw that" and tried to blow Gil away.

They started out wanting peace so they didn't have to fight. What the ended up doing was dooming the world to continuous wars. And you have to admit, they always seem to like hiding themselves under the whole "we're doing this for the world" slogan.

He's human, I already agreed. He (really we know it's actually Lacus for the most part but he does it too) also plays god while we all know he (she) isn't.

If Lacus was stupid enough to walk into an obvious trap like that she deserved to die. After all her coordinated brain power enhancments and talk and ability to see though Gil's plans; and she walks into that? Besides, all she does is try to confuse and manipulate things, without her the world would have its peaceful existence without any war.
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Old 2006-01-02, 01:37   Link #106
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^And I'd never use Fukuda as a sheild...but the S.O.B. did say his official stance on Kira//Clyne faction side was that they were not acting in accordance with any justice and were very selfish overall (Maybe he wanted me to feel this way, doubt it though)...While I could really give a hoot about what he says i do feel like AA/Clyne Faction didn't operate in terms of any true justice and just ran around like a chicken with its head cut-off indiscriminatly causing choas without any clarity...It's still unsettling to me that characters I truley cared about and geniunley championed (including Lacus) just a series ago (in SEED) give me a feeling of disgust and distain now...I couldn't even believe myself, seriously...As they set off to space to stop ZAFT all I could think about is how I sincerly wanted the AA and all it's members vaporized by Reqiuem...How I wanted them to taste the wrath of ZAFT for their omnipotence and series-stealing shananigans....For their hilarity in explaining why THE DESTINY PLAN was so evil based on no evidence...I just wanted all their ideals crushed...To embrace the coldness of dead space...I can't believe that could ever happen to me...I can't name one show I ever watched where the second season I was just totally against everyone I loved and cared about in season 1...It's really an odd feeling...
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Old 2006-01-02, 01:48   Link #107
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Actually I did see him sticking his nose in a lot of places that didn't belong. And the only reason they didn't is cause they hadn't decided what they wanted to do. Once they did, they got into a fight everywhere. The attack by the destroys did not directly affect them at all but the still were there. The battle between EA and ZAFT with Athrun in the middle did not affect him personally, he still stuck his nose. (if you're going to say it's cause of Cagalli, that girl abandoned ORB the moment things got heated. She has no right to dictate jack to anyone). Seems to me nothing actually has anything to do with Kira, he just seems to like to make things his business.
You wouldn't really call that abandonment. Kira sorta took her away from her wedding, and that wasn't really a heated moment for ORB I suppose. And yes, Kira made it his business because he thought what he was doing was right. In their sense, it is correct for them, because all they wanted to do is to stop the fighting (although it caused more chaos instead as well). On the other hand, people like us view them as the "Knights" of "Peacekeeping and justice", if you know what I mean by the inverted commas.

Quote:
Kira not wanting to fight Shinn is just another hypocracy. He has these long speeches about not wanting to fight, he fights and kills anyways. He kills when he doesn't feel the desire to extend out the effort not to kill.
I think the speeches were done with in GS, though GSD tries to show that Kira does not kill still, but there are times where his efforts go "wrong", such as the crew manning the Tannhauser for the Minerva.

Quote:
He goes directly to the fortress to put a cap in Gil's ass to make sure he's dead. The whole talk about what humanity wanted. Humanity wanted peace, Gil was going to give it to them. Kira though "screw that" and tried to blow Gil away.
I would agree with you on that one. But then again, Kira's not really a normal human, is he? Normal people would have wanted to take the easiest way out to things, or the quickest and the most efficient. I pity him in that aspect. He says that he's the same as everyone else, and yet his piloting skills and his actions show otherwise, thus making him look like a hypocrite.

Quote:
They started out wanting peace so they didn't have to fight. What the ended up doing was dooming the world to continuous wars. And you have to admit, they always seem to like hiding themselves under the whole "we're doing this for the world" slogan.
Dooming the world to continous wars, huh? They are not really hiding under the slogan, but parading it to everyone. That part was a little weird to me as well. At first they wanted to tone down the fighting, and now they kill a person who would bring world peace...Yep, their actions are kinda hypocritical, even if his world peace is dictated by similarities and genetical classification of people.

Quote:
If Lacus was stupid enough to walk into an obvious trap like that she deserved to die. After all her coordinated brain power enhancments and talk and ability to see though Gil's plans; and she walks into that? Besides, all she does is try to confuse and manipulate things, without her the world would have its peaceful existence without any war.
Who knows? She can be that manipulative as to actually know that there's a trap but walk into it, for all you know. The shopping part didn't rest well with me at all. For goodness' sake, wearing a cloak that doesn't hide her outstanding hair and showing her face in public is REALLY a good thing to do. It was quite strange: She knows she is an important figure, and she definitely knows the possibility of her being in danger AGAIN is quite high...so why did she walk out in public like that? Because of the fact that the two most important characters are by her side? Because she can trust either to protect her? Someone answer me on that please...

@ WD: That was a little harsh...^^''' But I would agree that Clyne Faction should at least have suffered more than a few losses, and important ones at that rather than largely remaining intact (What am I talking about? They ARE intact....)
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Old 2006-01-02, 01:52   Link #108
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lmao WD another humorous, but very truthful post.
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:07   Link #109
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Well the bottomline for the Clyne Faction was it wasn't "JUSTICE", but "JUST-US"...

As for Lacus falling for(embracing) that Mia-trap, just more fodder to prove her genious isn't always on full blast...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-01-02 at 06:38.
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:20   Link #110
Moon Eclipse
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Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny
You wouldn't really call that abandonment. Kira sorta took her away from her wedding, and that wasn't really a heated moment for ORB I suppose. And yes, Kira made it his business because he thought what he was doing was right. In their sense, it is correct for them, because all they wanted to do is to stop the fighting (although it caused more chaos instead as well). On the other hand, people like us view them as the "Knights" of "Peacekeeping and justice", if you know what I mean by the inverted commas...
They can steal her away but they're not going to force her to stay. If she really wanted to go back she would have. They just did for her what she never had the guts to do herself. Which is character flaw in her. She lacks resolve in GSD. Heated political situation and heated for those that believe in the ideals that ORB used to stand for. It was during that time that ORB was about to abandon its past as a neutral country and join EA.

Kira did it because he wanted to be selfish under the guise of "the right thing". Afterall seems Shinn's not the only one that believe that "might makes right". Just and Freedom. There's a significance to their names, yet to me they defy even those. Those were and are the ideals and banners which they fight under, unforunately it's all just an act.

What makes him a hypocrate is not that he tries and fails. It is that he knowingly will fail. He plays god when he decides who lives and who dies. He plays god when he tries to balance out the scales by his own power like a vigialanty. The hypocracy is that he will choose to kill when he does. It is not an accident, it is a choice.

They hypocracy is in wielding a sword and thinking it will bring peace. A sword is meant for only death.

The Ultimate hypocracy is to stray from the path that you set yourself upon and betraying all that you once believed and still claim to believe

In the end the world that Gil invisioned would be peaceful, organized, happy. The world that Kira has created will be filled with anger, hate, suffering and needless death. In government and society we all give up out freedoms for the security, peace and order to life. Absolute freedom only brings about chaos and death. Gil's solution is what all societies even in reality strive for. Function and harmony.

As for the loses thing. If you noticed in the plus episode, they intentionally added in more "loses" to appease the "god moding" criers.
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:21   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Well the bottomline for the Clyne Faction was it wasn't "JUSTICE", but "JUST-US"...

As for Lacus falling for(embracing) that Mia-trap, just more fodder to proof her genious isn't always on full blast...
Well, you did know what I mean by the inverted commas...

If that was fodder, then Fukuda must have thought the people viewing GSD were blind or stupid... He could have made it a little better at the very least, not showing it that she gave the ridiculous reason of wanting to have a bit of fresh air and walk in Copernicus that long. I wonder who's the one who was doing the luring here...Mia Campbell, or Lacus Clyne? (j/king).

@ Moon: Well, FYI, all I really saw were ZAFT ships blowing up for most of the part, and Dearka getting torn apart AGAIN didn't go down too well with me either after just deciding to aid CF several minutes earlier. One minute ORB and CF were in dire crap, and the next they are winning just because of a few delectable words from our dear Yamato and Zala to the two ace pilots of ZAFT, or at least it was shown to be that way.
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:22   Link #112
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LMAO thank you WD, for making me spill hot coffee in my laughing tirade..
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:27   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny
@ Moon: Well, FYI, all I really saw were ZAFT ships blowing up for most of the part, and Dearka getting torn apart AGAIN didn't go down too well with me either after just deciding to aid CF several minutes earlier. One minute ORB and CF were in dire crap, and the next they are winning just because of a few delectable words from our dear Yamato and Zala to the two ace pilots of ZAFT, or at least it was shown to be that way.
There was Dearka and then the main leader of the DOM troops. Aside from that... a little bit more struggling from Mwu

Personally I don't know what the point of sending out ships were. The gundams were the ones that did all the work. Just send in Meteor with the 3 gundams: I-J, S-F and the bling bling gundam. Less target, less having to worry about friendly fire, less fodder to protect
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:33   Link #114
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LMAO thank you WD, for making me spill hot coffee in my laughing tirade..

I aim to please XD...I think I'm funnier when I'm not trying to be...Was it the "JUST-US" comment or were you still laffing at my bitterness against the AA side...
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:35   Link #115
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They should have just gone with something like the gundam games in G gundam
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:36   Link #116
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Just-Us took the cake, cause it's so true.
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Old 2006-01-02, 02:42   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
There was Dearka and then the main leader of the DOM troops. Aside from that... a little bit more struggling from Mwu

Personally I don't know what the point of sending out ships were. The gundams were the ones that did all the work. Just send in Meteor with the 3 gundams: I-J, S-F and the bling bling gundam. Less target, less having to worry about friendly fire, less fodder to protect
Oh thanks for reminding me about Mwu and his mobile suit which felt the delightful touch of Midas upon it. Akatsuki was yet another inconsistency begging to be criticised. A mobile suit working on an ultracompact battery (which is not NJC) and using DRAGOONs and beam shields as though they need no energy? Brilliant, I say. Three Lohengrin blasts at gigantic beam shield of Requiem and not a hole, while IJ and Akatsuki creates two of their own as though using needles to poke through paper? VERY brilliant. I bow down the the ingenuity of those scenes, alright.
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Old 2006-01-02, 06:13   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
In the end the world that Gil invisioned would be peaceful, organized, happy. The world that Kira has created will be filled with anger, hate, suffering and needless death. In government and society we all give up out freedoms for the security, peace and order to life. Absolute freedom only brings about chaos and death. Gil's solution is what all societies even in reality strive for. Function and harmony.
While Dullindal's world would've been peaceful, organized, and happy, it would've left people without the ability to choose and decide for themselves. Dullindal's world is centered around people having a specific role based on their genes. (I imagine it being something like the world described in the movie, Gattaca. Your genes decide everything, from your job straight down to your social rank.)

Lacus and Kira, on the other hand, want to prevent that. They feel that people should be free to choose and make decisions as they see fit. (I assume that "within the boundaries of law" does not need to be written, or at least, I assume that's part of their ideal. If not, those two are too naive to be holding that much military and politcal power.) The world that Lacus and Kira envision would be one where someone can decide to be a teacher even if his genes dictate that he can't be one. (Say, if he's got a gene that makes him prone to anger easier. Or maybe some other gene that would hamper his people skills.) But there is one flaw within their ideal, in that it calls for everyone, Naturals and Coordinators alike to actually cooperate and tolerate each other. And given that the war started because Naturals and Coordinators couldn't get along . . .

And I'd say that Dullindal's solution isn't really what all societies in reality strive for. Dullindal's solution is actually one where the government makes the decisions for everyone and tells them what to do. Opposition is crushed and killed off. Sounds an awful lot like the Communist Chinese government. Few rights for people, those who express unfavorable comments towards the government "mysteriously disappear" or are thrown in prison. Or even the "Big Brother" government written about in George Orwell's 1984. In stark contrast, the US government allows you more freedom, if, for nothing else, you can say what you want, choose your own career, and if you break the law, you pay the consequences. And, in theory, anyway, you're happier because you made the choice to do what you want to get where you are. Whether you are in reality, well, I'll leave that for people to think about.

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Old 2006-01-02, 07:41   Link #119
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for me it's pretty simple:

1. Too many recaps and reused scenes.
2. Kira becoming godlike when he was never really part of the development.
3. Lack of development for Shinn.

On point 1 i don't think i need to elaborate further.

On point 2 I believe that many Kira fans were bashing the series when Kira was not featured much whereas Athrun was featured a lot more. I think it's partially due to their bitching that Kira actually became main character again.

On point 3, first read point 2. Then you'll know why Shinn was toned down ( i clearly remember all the Kira fans crying for blood after Shinn took down Freedom ). And in the recent remake of episode 50, Shinn has had more deveopment than in the entire series.
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Old 2006-01-02, 07:52   Link #120
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Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
They hypocracy is in wielding a sword and thinking it will bring peace. A sword is meant for only death.
To quote Bujold: "War is not its own end, except in some catastrophic slide into absolute damnation. It's peace that's wanted. Some better peace than the one you started with." Everyone's fighting for peace. Just not the same peace. Kira never said he wasn't killing people. He just decided it was better than to stay on the sideline and watch the world fall.

And by the way, it's "hypocrisy".

Quote:
The Ultimate hypocracy is to stray from the path that you set yourself upon and betraying all that you once believed and still claim to believe

In the end the world that Gil invisioned would be peaceful, organized, happy.
Would it have been? Gil could have envisioned pigs flying in parade formation around the sun. Would it have come to pass?

Quote:
The world that Kira has created will be filled with anger, hate, suffering and needless death.
As opposed to Gil's, where nations are casually annihilated by giant death rays. Right.

There are, and always will conflicts. Doesn't mean we can't find some peace, too.
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