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Old 2003-12-16, 21:05   Link #1
WayoftheFuture
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Lightbulb The So-Called End of English

Read straight through and don't stop, especially if you don't want to:


ecxpet the wfodnerul tinhg aobut bdaly wirettn psots is taht you can awlyas raed tehm so lnog as the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry wrod is wehre it sohlud be --- you can jmulbe the rset tgoethr and sitll cmmonuictae wtih yuor frnieds wthiuot mcuh dclftfuiiy. The wrod oderr deo'nst mttaer.

So you see English Grammar-Martinets, your days are over. Anglophones can communicate above and beyond the call of correct spelling. So each and everyone of you who rolls their eyes at the sight of L33+ and poor grammar on the internet -- wake up.

The internet is a completely different realm of being than a third grade English class room. If you don't like misspellings and L33+, you may as well turn off your computer and never go online again. Your laws of grammar do not apply here. And I'll be damned if I let anyone forcibly impose their concept of antiquated English upon the ever-evolving languages of the internet.

Language always changes, morphs, evolves -- and sticking some stupid old rules that only apply to business letters and school papers is absurd. This is a different world with different modes of speech. If we can communicate in a different way, and understand the internet in a way different from what we are taught -- then listen.

This is the information age, for crying out loud. When you approach information that looks different, learn from it, don't destroy it. The internet is embracing different forms of speech every day -- combining html and other programming languages with modern speech (L33+) and getting too excited to check perfectionist spelling rules. Perfection only exists in the mind.

The internet is giving birth to new ways of communication, the free exchange of ideas, and just because itís different does not make it wrong. Open up your hearts and understand.

Welcome to the internet; we speak differently here.

Gr4|\/||\/|4r 15 D43d! L0|\|g L1\/3 L33+!

WAYOFTHEFUTURE
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Old 2003-12-16, 21:18   Link #2
NightWish
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Ah a new member... Your first post and you make it a rant in the feedback forum? Interesting. I don't really disagree with what you said but I am left wondering where it all came from, what prompted you to feel the need to say it... Anyway, welcome .
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Old 2003-12-16, 21:23   Link #3
Shii
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ばかおまえ

Welcome to the forums &c
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Old 2003-12-16, 22:20   Link #4
Vulkar
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Bleh, heard this before on the old forum, nothing new or interesting here really. Can't say I agree with you entirely on your rant though. I agree language evolves and breaks out of the rules set out for it, but I think those rules also keep it from evolve out of control so that we don't end up with everyone speaking their own language and complete misunderstandings occuring.
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Old 2003-12-16, 22:58   Link #5
p3psi
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Well, you see, when you are fluent in a language, you usally use causal speech and dont really care about grammer and spelling.

since there's lot of foriegn guys here who arent as fluent, I noticed that they try to make thiere syntax correct and everything spelled perfectly and use punctionation.

However, i think its kind of detrimental to thier learning processes when we write so poorly.

anyways, "l33t" wasnt created to be a new form of communication for CS hackers and then internet trolls alike, but it was used by hackers and progamers alike to create simple passwords they could remember, and yet be difficult to crack.
e.g. A simple password dictionary could crack the password of your favorite anime "trigun" in no time flat,
but "Tri9u/\/" isnt in most password dictionaries and niether would be 7r19un.
however, since leets been popular for a while, people simply been making "leet translators" and been adding leet translations to newer password dics. However, because of maybe up to 10-20 diffrent ways you could write a single word in leet, password dics had to increase in size, and time wasted dramtically increased.
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Old 2003-12-16, 23:12   Link #6
Animaniac
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Believe it or not there is more to the internet than internet communities such as Animesuki, IRC, IM, etc. Although grammar is thrown to the dogs there, the rest of the internet is well educated and written. There's no way literature, journals, and news sources will start WiRtInG leik dis!111one.
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Old 2003-12-17, 10:39   Link #7
Briareos
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Be sure to use 'leet' speak and grammatically incorrect sentences on your next resume. I'm sure they'll be dying to hire you.
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Old 2003-12-17, 12:07   Link #8
Elysium
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Bad English grammar and 1337 speak on the internet came about as lazy little kids decided to make it simpler to spell out whole words, and through avoidance of authority on hackers' parts, respectively. I'm not a hacker, and thus, would have no need to speak 1337. I'm also not a little 3rd grader with no comprehension of the English language, so I think I'll be typing like this regardless.

DON'T PEDDLE YOUR CANDY TO ME, CANDYMAN!!!

Seriously, the guy obviously just signed up, copied and pasted something from another website he got, and then didn't bother coming back.
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Old 2003-12-17, 12:20   Link #9
tsurumaru
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Its widely known that languages in general are adaptive, and over time vocabulary and even whole meanings of words can change according to their usage by each generation.
What is important to note though is that punctuation is important because without it the context of a phrase, or sentence can be lost. The ability to communicate both concisely and exactely through the written word is why the rules of punctuation were created in the first place.
Sadly most of the current generation of native English speakers (including myself)were not taught the basics of grammar in school due to the teaching policies in place at the time. It was felt that it was more important that students be able to express themselves to their full extent, rather than express themselves correctly.
Its somewhat ironic that with the advent of email and text messaging, you might think that this ability to communicate effectively, without continual clarification would be even more useful. However, there was always going to be a trade off against between the amount of effort/time it takes to type a message and the level of accuracy of punctuation and spelling.
It is interesting that "Smilies" (essentialy indicatives of the emotional tone of a written piece of text) have been widely adapted to increase the clarity or tone of a message, whereas the; colon ":", semicolon ";", or the ability of a user to distinguish between the use of "there", "their", and "they're" for example, have not.

The below text (as quoted from the original poster) is part of a recent scientific study into the way in which your brain processes written words. You should find that as long as you have encountered the correct spelling (and meaning) of the words contained within the "jumbled" text that your level of comprehension as to what the correct words are, remains fairly high. This is only the case where the first and last letters of the word are the same as the original word (and I presume the word length is the same). It is interesting as it links into disorders such as dyslexia.

"ecxpet the wfodnerul tinhg aobut bdaly wirettn psots is taht you can awlyas raed tehm so lnog as the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry wrod is wehre it sohlud be --- you can jmulbe the rset tgoethr and sitll cmmonuictae wtih yuor frnieds wthiuot mcuh dclftfuiiy. The wrod oderr deo'nst mttaer."

Actually the last sentence should be that the letter order doesn't matter (apart from the above rule about first and last letter having to be the same as the original word), rather than the word order, otherwise we would start to enter "Yoda" territory.

"A different scenario would that be........"
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Last edited by tsurumaru; 2003-12-17 at 12:35.
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Old 2003-12-18, 06:28   Link #10
Tboz
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The place where I come from, our English has evolved so much that foreigners find it hard to follow. We use lots of abbreviations and include many of our own dialect and slang in the conversations.

Personally, I don't really mind people with bad English unless I am picking on them deliberately.

I myself don't have a PhD in English or anything. Conversely, I don't speak English at home and its one of my weaker language. Nevertheless, English is the closest thing to an universal language in the world. To improve mine, I do all I can to post with proper sentence structure, grammer and punctuation.
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Old 2003-12-20, 11:00   Link #11
anthonyxscotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tboz
The place where I come from, our English has evolved so much that foreigners find it hard to follow. We use lots of abbreviations and include many of our own dialect and slang in the conversations.
Welcome to great world i live in ... Scotland.. where we have and use english, just rather hard for non scots to understand our local Dialects... heck even i cant understand half of them...

At the end of the day, there is people whom will use l33t and txt speak no matter how much you ask them to write in standard english, because its cool and fashionable, on the other hand, it can make trying to read forums like translating from 2 differnt lanugages.
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Old 2003-12-22, 16:39   Link #12
Briareos
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l33t is cool to whom? ...to a little circle of people who think it's cool.

Slang is a natural progression of language specific to a locality. Few of us actually use "English" anyhow. I guess Americans should be said to speak "Anglo-American" or something?

I guess the primary idea that I'm concerned with is that, "You have to know the rules in order to break them." I'm more worried about those who are ignorant (and could care less) about the basics of their own native language than I am about "English" evolving. Somewhere between the anal-retentive English teachers and the grammatically careless there has to be a happy medium where communication can be clear and precise. None of this "eschew obfuscation" crap.

tsurumaru:
I know what you mean. Somewhere between Grade School and High School English classes I missed out on basic grammatical structure and rules. It wasn't until I arrived in college that I realized how much I'd missed. Strunk and White (The Elements of Style) were my best friends back then.
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Old 2003-12-25, 03:54   Link #13
Starlord
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every language is chancing, everywere on Earth but only the old ones want that fixed forever.... somewere in Future there will be only one Language for all, but that, can only be, if People are connektet more together, so long someone lives Isolatet he uses more and more different speach from the others, thats why we have so much trouble in the world with that many Languages...

Some sound nice Some i realy hate
but they are all based on the Same Foundings...

jeah i speak Englisch but, i guess its realy bad
only good to make someone to understood, what i want,
and if not i use arms and Legs or the big 10000 Kilo Toy Hammer ;-)
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Old 2003-12-26, 04:48   Link #14
lost_angel
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well dunno about you but the faster they invent the universal translater the better, lol
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Old 2003-12-26, 15:53   Link #15
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayoftheFuture
Read straight through and don't stop, especially if you don't want to:


ecxpet the wfodnerul tinhg aobut bdaly wirettn psots is taht you can awlyas raed tehm so lnog as the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry wrod is wehre it sohlud be --- you can jmulbe the rset tgoethr and sitll cmmonuictae wtih yuor frnieds wthiuot mcuh dclftfuiiy. The wrod oderr deo'nst mttaer.

So you see English Grammar-Martinets, your days are over. Anglophones can communicate above and beyond the call of correct spelling. So each and everyone of you who rolls their eyes at the sight of L33+ and poor grammar on the internet -- wake up.

The internet is a completely different realm of being than a third grade English class room. If you don't like misspellings and L33+, you may as well turn off your computer and never go online again. Your laws of grammar do not apply here. And I'll be damned if I let anyone forcibly impose their concept of antiquated English upon the ever-evolving languages of the internet.

Language always changes, morphs, evolves -- and sticking some stupid old rules that only apply to business letters and school papers is absurd. This is a different world with different modes of speech. If we can communicate in a different way, and understand the internet in a way different from what we are taught -- then listen.

This is the information age, for crying out loud. When you approach information that looks different, learn from it, don't destroy it. The internet is embracing different forms of speech every day -- combining html and other programming languages with modern speech (L33+) and getting too excited to check perfectionist spelling rules. Perfection only exists in the mind.

The internet is giving birth to new ways of communication, the free exchange of ideas, and just because itís different does not make it wrong. Open up your hearts and understand.

Welcome to the internet; we speak differently here.

Gr4|\/||\/|4r 15 D43d! L0|\|g L1\/3 L33+!

WAYOFTHEFUTURE
That's not an example of english evolving, it's an example of people slowly becoming illiterate. If this trend continues in less than 50 years no one will be able to understand written english. Grammer exists for a reason. To provide a common set of rules that everyone abides by so it's easier to understand each other. You seem to have a decent knowledge of grammar, as your post is boken down into paragraphs. Now imagine a world where that concept doesn't exist. Could we even understand each other? I doubt it.
I'm not saying we have to stick to formal english that would be used for a report of resume. I don't. Informal english is fine. A post doesn't have to be perfect, but it should still be good enough that it shows some understanding of spelling and grammar.
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Old 2003-12-26, 16:56   Link #16
diabolistic
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wayofthefuture:

Because one can be a grammar-impaired aoler, does not necessarily mean that one has to be one.

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

one of my favorites; an essay on the use of language..
What Orwell is saying, in short, is.. don't be an idiot.
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Old 2003-12-26, 18:59   Link #17
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diabolistic
wayofthefuture:

Because one can be a grammar-impaired aoler, does not necessarily mean that one has to be one.

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

one of my favorites; an essay on the use of language..
What Orwell is saying, in short, is.. don't be an idiot.
Hmm...I can see where Orwell came up with the 'newspeak' he used as a symbol of total oppression in 1984.
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Old 2004-01-01, 00:09   Link #18
Yakumae
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Hmmm, besides his first paragraph, all of his post had fairly decent grammer... if typing incorrectly was such a big deal to him, his whole post should have been that way. He is obviously a troll.

There is a difference between having bad grammer and a few typos, and having every word you type be misspelled. That takes effort. Just because someone can understand when people type like that, doesn't mean that it is the easiest thing to do.

Grammer will always matter. Also, there is a HUGE difference between "leet" speak, perpetual word for word bad grammer and spelling, and the occasional typo. Two of them should be acceptable, one of them shouldn't. I'll let you guess which one.
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Old 2004-01-01, 16:44   Link #19
tsurumaru
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Ok just to put this one to bed, please reread my earlier post:

ecxpet the wfodnerul tinhg aobut bdaly wirettn psots is taht you can awlyas raed tehm so lnog as the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry wrod is wehre it sohlud be --- you can jmulbe the rset tgoethr and sitll cmmonuictae wtih yuor frnieds wthiuot mcuh dclftfuiiy. The wrod oderr deo'nst mttaer.

This text has been deliberately constructed to highlight the results from research into the way the human brain perceives and understands written text and its meaning. Numerous articles appeared in the British national press about 3 months ago with similar paragraphs highlighting these results too.

The rest of the original post looks like it was hijacked by someone trying to advocate or justify "l337 speak" or "l337 spelling" using the results of this research.
However they failed to both understand the concept behind the research (as highlighted by the fact that punctuation marks and correct grammar are still used in the "jumbled up" text to aid comprehension) and the actual communication of the correct information itself; as mentioned previously the last sentence should be something along the lines of:

"The oderr of the cetnarl ltteers deo'nst mttaer."

Interestingly in addition to my earlier comments regarding how I assumed the number of letters would have to be the same as the original word my brain usually "trips up" over the word "ecxpet". It always presents me with the reading "expect" rather than "except" (as they are anagrams of each other).
I wonder if the most encountered version of the word is the first the brain suggests is the correct, or perhaps it is just different for every person?
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Old 2004-01-03, 22:52   Link #20
Altimit
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Language is supposed to be about communication. People who get all uptight about gramar and spelling don't seem to realize that. Punctuation is indeed important in written communication, however the people who set down the rules for it didn't seem to understand language's purpose either. I don't have the detailes with me, but I've been learning about all the nitty gritty stuff in school latley and I have discovered that everyone used commas exactly the way they are supposed to be they would be completley useless. The commonly beleived, logical, and to an english major, incorrect usage is that they are used to indicate a pause in speech. In reality, a majority of the time this isn't the case whereas you'll often see commas where there is no pause.

NOTE: This post does NOT contain correct use of spelling and probably has numerous other gramatical or spelling errors.
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