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Old 2012-08-22, 17:39   Link #23041
ganbaru
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Despite Assange claims, U.S. has no current case against him
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87L12W20120822
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Old 2012-08-22, 18:42   Link #23042
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
both China and Taiwan made a claim in the 1970s.

At which point the Japanese claim was likely considered stronger, or had already taken effect.

However the islands are still disputed and the United States usually ignores the situation as long as the Chinese don't come to claim it with their military. At that point I would think both the Americans and Japanese would be upset by the move...Taiwan probably as well.

The likely reason it was not given to Taiwan is because it is officially considered part of China since the early 1970s and thus giving it to Taiwan would be giving it to China (by default) or it would cause an international incident if the Chinese get upset by more "official" recognization of Taiwan as an independance country that is not "China". So it goes to Japan.
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Old 2012-08-22, 19:52   Link #23043
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Despite Assange claims, U.S. has no current case against him
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87L12W20120822
I think Assange might be underestimating how much he's pissed off people other than the United States.


More to the point. I'm not exactly sure how the United States could have Assange extradited to the United States and charged...for something. As a non US citizen, he certainly had no legal obligation to not leak classified material that had been divulged to him.
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Old 2012-08-22, 20:10   Link #23044
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
since it is East Asia,

A game of Go would be in order,
Please, everyone knows that the proper way to deal with this kind of situation is through a game of Mahjong.
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Old 2012-08-22, 20:25   Link #23045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
both China and Taiwan made a claim in the 1970s.
You mean after the papers about the potential resources in the region? Quite a convenient time after all those years.
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Old 2012-08-22, 23:28   Link #23046
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Should this thing escalate about the Senkaku Islands, how long would it take before anti-Chinese riots spread in Japan? I'm asking that question because there's something odd from my point of view: I always see anti-Japanese riots from the Chinese on TV, but never quite see the opposite from the Japanese people on TV when there's a dispute between the 2 countries on something. Same thing about that other island sitting between Japan and South Korea.
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:08   Link #23047
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The Japanese people are quite peaceful (unless lead by a big shot ultranationalist). There will be protests, but riots probably will be the last thing on their minds.

Besides, Saturday is just two days away, they have their anime nights to watch rather than deal with some hegemon wannabe up North.
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:12   Link #23048
Ithekro
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Closest think you'l get to a riot was Comiket if a Circle runs out early.
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Old 2012-08-23, 00:33   Link #23049
aohige
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Riots in Japan has been extinct since the fall of the Red Army.

You have to analy rape the population as a whole for even a large scale protest, much less a riot.
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Old 2012-08-23, 02:04   Link #23050
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Closest think you'l get to a riot was Comiket if a Circle runs out early.
Or when you replace every circle with a BL one. Either that or outlaw cosplay at Comi.
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Old 2012-08-23, 10:04   Link #23051
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Discussion of the situation in the China Sea

Today's instalment of the National Public Radio program OnPoint focuses on the China Sea. it includes commentary from a variety of Western and Asian academics and journalists. Well-known foreign policy professor Graham Allison analogizes the situation to Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian Wars in the final segment.
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Old 2012-08-23, 10:39   Link #23052
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I'm asking that question because there's something odd from my point of view: I always see anti-Japanese riots from the Chinese on TV, but never quite see the opposite from the Japanese people on TV when there's a dispute between the 2 countries on something. Same thing about that other island sitting between Japan and South Korea.
WW2 wasn't THAT long ago, and the devastation the Japanese brought to the rest of east asia, especially China and S.Korea, has not been forgotten by many, especially when you consider the Japanese govt's attitude towards their war crimes usually boils down to "lalalala I can't hear you" or "we're sorry... kinda, but not really", or "what war crimes?"
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:35   Link #23053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
WW2 wasn't THAT long ago, and the devastation the Japanese brought to the rest of east asia, especially China and S.Korea, has not been forgotten by many, especially when you consider the Japanese govt's attitude towards their war crimes usually boils down to "lalalala I can't hear you" or "we're sorry... kinda, but not really", or "what war crimes?"
What? Lots of Japanese people know about war crimes. They're just not as obsessed with grovelling about them at other peoples' feet about them the way the Germans do. The few rightist politicians who do harp about how Nanjing never happened or w/e are a fringe minority. On the other hand the Chinese are given the impression by their media that most Japanese think that way.

Also, how many people did the Japanese even kill? I'd bet that only a few, maybe ten millions were directly slaughtered by the Japanese soldiers, and the rest died or famine, disease, or other causes like warlords or that Yellow River flood caused by the retreated ROC troops. By contrast, between 1949 and 1959 at least a few millions were executed for being intellectuals, landlords, and members of various religious sects. Between 1958 and 1962, 30-40 millions were killed due to severe crop mismanagement. Between 1966-1976 at least a another few millions were killed by Red Guards and more countless millions were driven to commit suicide. When some Japanese politician or another goes to visit that shrine and honor the dead soldiers, Chinese people get really pumped out about how they are also respecting the war criminals, but every day in China the same party that killed many times the number slaughtered by the Japanese still rules, and Mao Zedong is still revered as a great leader who made "mistakes."

The Chinese ought to face their own gov's massive historical responsibility rather than complain about a few imperfections in the Japanese system. After all, it was Mao Zedong who, when the Japanese offered reparations, said "you helped us defeat the Nationalists, thanks but we don't need reparations."
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:44   Link #23054
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
What? Lots of Japanese people know about war crimes. They're just not as obsessed with grovelling about them at other peoples' feet about them the way the Germans do. The few rightist politicians who do harp about how Nanjing never happened or w/e are a fringe minority. On the other hand the Chinese are given the impression by their media that most Japanese think that way.

Also, how many people did the Japanese even kill? I'd bet that only a few, maybe ten millions were directly slaughtered by the Japanese soldiers, and the rest died or famine, disease, or other causes like warlords or that Yellow River flood caused by the retreated ROC troops. By contrast, between 1949 and 1959 at least a few millions were executed for being intellectuals, landlords, and members of various religious sects. Between 1958 and 1962, 30-40 millions were killed due to severe crop mismanagement. Between 1966-1976 at least a another few millions were killed by Red Guards and more countless millions were driven to commit suicide. When some Japanese politician or another goes to visit that shrine and honor the dead soldiers, Chinese people get really pumped out about how they are also respecting the war criminals, but every day in China the same party that killed many times the number slaughtered by the Japanese still rules, and Mao Zedong is still revered as a great leader who made "mistakes."

The Chinese ought to face their own gov's massive historical responsibility rather than complain about a few imperfections in the Japanese system. After all, it was Mao Zedong who, when the Japanese offered reparations, said "you helped us defeat the Nationalists, thanks but we don't need reparations."
While I agree that it should be water under the bridge I'll point you to the wikipedia page listing the Japanese war crimes circa WW2. This isn't a simple case of overreaction, they really did do some nasty things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:49   Link #23055
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
While I agree that it should be water under the bridge I'll point you to the wikipedia page listing the Japanese war crimes circa WW2. This isn't a simple case of overreaction, they really did do some nasty things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
Oh no, I'm certainly not doubting what the Japanese did was really evil and freaky as hell (pretty much they were like Nazis in Russia), just that people are missing the elephant in the living room, or the one hanging above the Tiananmen gate.
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:54   Link #23056
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
What? Lots of Japanese people know about war crimes. They're just not as obsessed with grovelling about them at other peoples' feet about them the way the Germans do. The few rightist politicians who do harp about how Nanjing never happened or w/e are a fringe minority. On the other hand the Chinese are given the impression by their media that most Japanese think that way.
Quote:
Vivisection

Prisoners of war were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia.[1][16] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Scientists performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results.[1][17] The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.[18]
Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss.[1] Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body.[1] Some prisoners' limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.
Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines.[1] Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc. were removed from some prisoners.[1][16][19]
In 2007, Ken Yuasa testified to the Japan Times that, "I was afraid during my first vivisection, but the second time around, it was much easier. By the third time, I was willing to do it." He believes at least 1,000 people, including surgeons, were involved in vivisections over mainland China.[20]

None of the leadership form Unit-731 was ever punish. Several went on to found Green Cross Pharmaceutical.


There is saying sorry and actually meaning it.



Regarding the media prototypical, I don't read or watch Chinese news media. My impression of the Japanese thoughts on WWII comes form Western Media.



If the Governor of Tokyo belongs to the fringe minority, how does he get re-elected? all those years.
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Old 2012-08-23, 14:42   Link #23057
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
None of the leadership from Unit-731 was ever punish. Several went on to found Green Cross Pharmaceutical.
If I remember correctly that was because the Americans took the head researchers away to work on US biweapons.


Quote:
There is saying sorry and actually meaning it.
Quote:
Official government response in Japan

Since the end of the US Occupation, the Japanese government has repeatedly apologized for its prewar behavior in general, but specific apologies and indemnities are determined on the basis of bilateral determination that crimes occurred, which requires a high standard of evidence. For example, compensation was paid to South Korea for comfort women-related crimes in the 1965 Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea. Unit 731 presents a special problem, since unlike Nazi human experimentation which is extremely well documented, the activities of Unit 731 are known only from the testimonies of former unit members, and testimony cannot be employed to determine indemnity in this way.

In accordance with this principle, Japanese history textbooks usually contain references of Unit 731; however, Saburo Ienaga's New History of Japan included a detailed description, based on officers' testimony. The Ministry for Education attempted to remove this passage from his textbook before it was taught in public schools, on the basis that the testimony was insufficient. The Supreme Court of Japan ruled in 1997 that the testimony was indeed sufficient and that requiring it to be removed was an illegal violation of freedom of speech.
I'd say they pretty damn well mean it. From the same article:

Quote:
In 1997, the international lawyer Kōnen Tsuchiya filed a class action suit against the Japanese government demanding reparations for the actions of Unit 731, using evidence filed by Rikkyo University professor Makoto Ueda. All court levels found that the suit was baseless. No findings of fact were made about the existence of human experimentation, but the decision of the court was that reparations are determined by international treaties and not by local court cases.
Now let's see what Mao Zedong said to Japanese diplomats:

Quote:
Precisely because of the Japanese Imperial Army, which had occupied a large part of China, backing Chinese into a corner, once they understood, they began taking up armed-struggle, resulting in the establishment of many counter-Japanese military bases, thus creating favourable conditions for the coming war of liberation. Japanese capitalists and warlords have done a good deed for us(communist), if ever we need to say thank you, I would like to say thank you to Japanese war lords.
Nothing was said about reparations but from this we can be fairly sure that no reparations were given, nor were they asked for.


Quote:
If the Governor of Tokyo belongs to the fringe minority, how does he get re-elected? all those years.
Maybe people care about things other than his statements on China. Maybe he has good charisma. I doubt it's because he is a racist.
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Old 2012-08-23, 14:49   Link #23058
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I'd say they pretty damn well mean it. From the same article:
Quote:
Japanese politicians and publishers have made a cottage industry of denying the 1937 Nanking Massacre in which the Japanese killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the old Chinese capital. This is an offense to Chinese sensibilities comparable with Holocaust denial in Europe. In recent months, major publishers and broadcasters have been bullied to conform and self-censor in accord with the rising tide of resurgent militarism. That tacit government approval is given to such xenophobic, right-wing thinking can be seen in the latest Ministry of Education-approved school texts that erase or evade critical lessons drawn from Japan's bad behavior in its war of aggression.

In the "New History Textbook," the Nanking Massacre is dismissed as a controversial "incident." And the war of invasion is no longer termed an invasion. New textbooks drop references to "comfort women," sex slaves of mostly Chinese and Korean origin who were forced to service Japanese fighting men in the field. To borrow a phrase from the late writer Iris Chang, the abused women are being raped a second time, this time by defenders of the Japanese army who attempt to erase them from memory.


http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr...e-cunningham11
doesn't seem very sorry and not very fringe here.

PS> not form Chinese media.
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:04   Link #23059
Ithekro
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The problem with this debate is that I've heard two sides now with conflicting information. One that a textbook removed history implicating the Japanese, and then another article saying the Japanese Supreme Court ruled that the same textbook could not removed said history.

Is it possible that the Chinese or American sources of information of Japanese textbooks is out of date, but prepetuated because it helps their own cases?

What are current Japanese school textbooks using rather than the ones from 1997 that was called on its nonsense by the Japanese themselves.
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:06   Link #23060
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
doesn't seem very sorry and not very fringe here.
It's full of words no actual information. So some rightist textbooks were approved. What is their circulation? Are they the only textbooks used by Japanese schools?

To the second (and indirectly, the first) question, I can say that it is untrue. I knew someone who studied in Japan, went to Japanese high school, and in their books there was a full chapter dedicated to Japanese war crimes in China, with a large photo of a Japanese soldier stabbing a civilian woman with a bayonet.

Quote:
PS> not form Chinese media.
"From", not "form".

I don't really care either way if it's Chinese media or not. What I said in the first post was making a different point, namely that Japanese atrocities are hyped up in comparison to the Communist ones, when they shouldn't be. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Japanese atrocities actually happened or how the subject is treated by modern Japanese.
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