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Old 2012-08-21, 09:31   Link #30101
RandomAvatarFan
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Speaking of the third game, I am currently toying with a theory I have yet to reread to confirm. Basically, as to the question of why murders continued and yet the epitaph was solved, I was wondering if the timeline was messed up. Eva may have solved the epitaph, as she had the ring, but what if she did it after she shot Battler. In the same way he went investigating after everyone was dead in ep 4, maybe she did too. This might be how she ended up in Kuwadorian at the bomb blast. I only say this as I believe the whole acceptance ceremony of EvaTrice thing was more about people starting to blame Eva from that point.
This is pretty much my feelings on it too.

EVA is a character that represents both Beatrice (the witch who was being blamed for the murders) and Eva (the human being blamed for the murders) Like in EP4, Ange's enemy was the witch of Rokkenjima- who took the form of Eva.

The thing about the ring is also true: all we know is that in the end, Eva gets the ring. But we wonder if she really solve the epitaph in the first place. We have this line from EP2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
I will keep my promise
This is in regards to Battler wondering if the killing will stop after the epitaph is solved.
So we have:
  • Eva didn't solve the epitaph at the time.
  • Someone other than Beatrice killed.
We do have a bunch of holes in the story that we're unaware of though. For one, we have Hideyoshi's cigarette in her room. Where would Eva have gone? Could it have been that it wasn't until that time that she went to solve the epitaph?
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Old 2012-08-21, 10:09   Link #30102
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why does she have to be androgynous to represent both of them?
I didn't say that I was responding to them saying that Ikuko was given a androgynous appearance compared to other female characters and I was saying that I didn't really get that.
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Old 2012-08-21, 13:23   Link #30103
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Where did I say that Yasu killed herself out of cowardice, or that she never felt sorry in the end?
That's not what Renall said. He was responding to you claiming that Renall was being very un-cautious about "Yasu killed herself", which is something YOU said that Ryukishi said. Renall then built off of that and took it to it's logical conclusion in his mind.
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Old 2012-08-21, 18:31   Link #30104
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I've actually wondered what people think about Natsuhi Corpse Burner Theory in Umineko?
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Old 2012-08-21, 19:17   Link #30105
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
I've actually wondered what people think about Natsuhi Corpse Burner Theory in Umineko?
Does that refer to a specific theory?

In general, the issue of Kinzo's corpse is a bag of thorns. Logically, there's no reason to keep or attempt to preserve his body at all ... but BAM, his body is certainly there. Probably.

I lie at Kratsuhi and co. buried his corpse somewhere in the forest where it was unlikely to be found. Shkanon decided to use it in the ceremony cause it's basically a free "Pass Go" on having to actually kill someone. Of course, burning him up is a better presentation than "all decayed, and stuff". Presumably, regardless of whether you think she was being blackmailed or was an accomplice in EP1, Natsuhi pretty much knew Gensawajo was not to be trusted when she kicked them out of the study.

There IS the matter of why his corpse wasn't used in EP2, and why it WAS used in EP4. I put that pretty much on Ryukishi - repeating Kinzo's style of death in EP2 would have exposed the trick too early (most people had guessed it in Banquet, after all), and doing it in EP4 is basically a confirmation of a pattern.
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Old 2012-08-21, 19:36   Link #30106
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That last part you stated is pretty much the basics of the Natsuhi Corpse Theory. The corpse is burned in EP's 1, 3, and 4. But EP 4 breaks it sense from what we know the corpse was burned near the end if we are going to go by the scene of Beatrice burning the corpse as implying this is when she burned him. So pretty much Kinzo isn't burned on the Fourth Twilight if Natsuhi is killed on the First Twilight which is what led me to believe that Natsuhi burned the corpse. Though she was not an accomplice to Yasu and has nothing to do with the other crimes. Natsuhi pretty much finally got her chance to dispose of Kinzo's body without any suspicion since it will just be assumed it was part of the murders. Yasu then staked the body afterwards.
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Old 2012-08-21, 21:57   Link #30107
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Natsuhi pretty much knew Gensawajo was not to be trusted when she kicked them out of the study.
I am enjoying rereading all the Kinzo scenes with the knowledge of what Natsuhi knew. It makes her shock at him giving the ring up and her willingness to bet the culprit can't get into the study make a lot of sense so they can hide there. I would say though that I don't believe she is the one who burned Kinzo and then Yasu conveniently staked him, at least not in game 1. Her reaction seems pretty genuine, and timingwise she really would only have had time to do it when she went to get the gun.

I have to admit though, I am basing this partly on the fact that she is meant to be pure and innocent, which is a red that apparently can be applied to someone who pushed a maid and baby off a cliff (if what I've heard about ep 8 manga is to be believed)...
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Old 2012-08-21, 22:14   Link #30108
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Well it isn't exactly evil because I still imagine Natsuhi freaking out for actually burning his corpse and really I can't think of another reason Kinzo wasn't burned in EP 2 and not till the end of EP 4. I can see EP 4 being Yasu found his corpse after searching and going through the mansion and also Natsuhi burning him when she gets the gun could fit. But I can't find a time where Yasu could've staked the corpse or burn the body because after murdering Eva and Hideyoshi Yasu was always under watch from someone. The only time she could've is when she went to grab the tool to break into the room.
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Old 2012-08-22, 01:02   Link #30109
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. But EP 4 breaks it sense from what we know the corpse was burned near the end if we are going to go by the scene of Beatrice burning the corpse as implying this is when she burned him.
No, again, you can't just decide that the order of magic scenes = order of actual events. The Yasu Culprit Theory's answer to EP4 is that Yasu killed herself as Shannon at the very last moment, but yet we see both Kanon and Shannon die first.

Kinzo wasn't burned at the end of EP4. Battler was in the guesthouse the entire time until his investigation on Oct. 5th. The parents may have found his body during the conference and acknowledged it as Kinzo.
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Old 2012-08-22, 04:21   Link #30110
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Logically, there's no reason to keep or attempt to preserve his body at all ... but BAM, his body is certainly there. Probably.
I don't think Kinzo's corpse even exists in Prime. It was probably burned or buried somewhere shortly after he died. It's probably an entirely fictional object.

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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
I can't think of another reason Kinzo wasn't burned in EP 2 and not till the end of EP 4.
The roulette?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Natsuhi pretty much finally got her chance to dispose of Kinzo's body without any suspicion since it will just be assumed it was part of the murders.
Natsuhi had over a year of time and a giant, largely uninhabited island along with several loyal servants to use in disposing Kinzo's body- she wasn't waiting for a chance to "finally get rid of the body".

In fact, Kinzo's death becoming "real" in 1986 is a threat to Krautsuhi's embezzlement coverup regardless of the cause of his death, so Natsuhi shouldn't want to fake Kinzo's murder either.
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Old 2012-08-22, 05:26   Link #30111
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The only time she could've is when she went to grab the tool to break into the room.
Interesting thing about that, didn't he get it from the boiler room? That has implications because the vn itself pointed out the body had been been burning for hours. How long was it between the whole Eva and Hideoyoshi thing and the finding of the corpse anyway? I thought it occurred pretty much straight away....
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Old 2012-08-22, 07:03   Link #30112
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not what Renall said. He was responding to you claiming that Renall was being very un-cautious about "Yasu killed herself", which is something YOU said that Ryukishi said. Renall then built off of that and took it to it's logical conclusion in his mind.
I never said that Renall was being "un-cautious" about "Yasu killed herself". In fact he did the opposite about that and I pointed that out.

What he seems to be sure about (given the assumption that Yasu killed herself) is the reason Yasu killed herself, which is something that isn't explicitly stated anywhere.

Now I can even accept that that is a logical conclusion to him, but shouldn't he argument why he thinks it's the only inevitable conclusion rather than answering "that's what you said", as if I'm supposed to agree that my words definitely implicated all that?
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Old 2012-08-22, 08:05   Link #30113
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Interesting thing about that, didn't he get it from the boiler room? That has implications because the vn itself pointed out the body had been been burning for hours. How long was it between the whole Eva and Hideoyoshi thing and the finding of the corpse anyway? I thought it occurred pretty much straight away....
No he got the tool from a storage house. And yeah finding the corpse happened right after. As soon as Natsuhi closed the door to Eva and Hideyoshi's room they noticed the horrible smell coming from the boiler room. The only other time I can imagine Yasu burning the body may have been when she was setting up the First Twilight.

Also there is something I never understood. People have said that Yasu was born a male because of EP 5 and Willard saying that Yasu in the first four games was obviously female but was presented as male in one game. Then people are saying the one game Yasu was presented as male is the one where Yasu is before the cliff fall and I just thought what? The man from 19 years ago is harassing Natsuhi because she threw her off a cliff so I never really understood this theory.
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Old 2012-08-22, 11:00   Link #30114
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Yasu didn't have multiple personalities.
Are you talking about how she didn't have real life DID? Because I am already aware of that, I was just wording it in the easiest way. Or are you talking about something else?
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Old 2012-08-22, 13:58   Link #30115
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What he seems to be sure about (given the assumption that Yasu killed herself) is the reason Yasu killed herself, which is something that isn't explicitly stated anywhere.
Well, in Ryukishi's defense, whenever Yasu kills herself in the novel, fictionally or otherwise, it's about being unable to live with guilt. What other conclusion should Renall draw?

Quote:
Are you talking about how she didn't have real life DID? Because I am already aware of that, I was just wording it in the easiest way. Or are you talking about something else?
If you don't mean it that way, don't use it. People misusing the concept of Multiple Personalities is a pet peeve of mine.
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Old 2012-08-23, 06:11   Link #30116
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Actually speaking of the lover's suicide, while George makes some lines earlier that might hint towards it, and she could have easily played the "before the killer gets us" line, I imagine the suicide must have been pretty onesided. After all, it would be hard to convince George after shooting Ghoda...
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Old 2012-08-23, 07:35   Link #30117
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I don't think Kinzo's corpse even exists in Prime. It was probably burned or buried somewhere shortly after he died. It's probably an entirely fictional object.
Agreed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The roulette?
Agreed. Asking why Kinzo wasn't burned in EP2, from a gameboard perspective, might be the same as asking why the 7th and 8th Twilights were Nanjo and Kumasawa, instead of, say, Ghoda and Genji.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Also there is something I never understood. People have said that Yasu was born a male because of EP 5 and Willard saying that Yasu in the first four games was obviously female but was presented as male in one game. Then people are saying the one game Yasu was presented as male is the one where Yasu is before the cliff fall and I just thought what? The man from 19 years ago is harassing Natsuhi because she threw her off a cliff so I never really understood this theory.
...whaaaat? What? O_o
Assuming you believe Yasu really is the cliff baby, Lion is the only version that didn't involve some hardcore cliff-ification. We cn excuse the masculin e presentation as Yasu already being able to pull off just as convincing a dude voice as a lady voice.

Possibly related, the APA has totally released a new official position on transgendered and gender non-conforming individuals, as in, "Gender Identity Disorder" is no longer a thing and the much less contentious "Gender Dysphoria" is now the way to go, along with much more progressive guidelines for treatment. Too bad Yasu was growin' up in the 70's. :-/
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Old 2012-08-23, 10:10   Link #30118
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Asuka0NK
Ryukushi left the gender matter up to his readers, If you want to believe its male, fine , if its female also fine. I Believe She is female and if they tell me 'Natsuhi had to knew the gender of the child in ep5' , I'll tell them that Natsuhi had the baby for 3 days total and it is possible that she just didn't care, also that reasoning won't work , because story didn't tell us if she knew or not , in other words It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. But , It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. .Lets not forget Genji hiding Yasu from Kinzo , because he tought kinzo would do the same mistake . (Btw using red is ...cool... lololol)
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Old 2012-08-23, 11:11   Link #30119
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Actually I've been toying with the very twisted idea that Ikuko is Yasu but that Touya is not Battler.
I presume you mean another real person and not a magical homonculus created by Featherine and made to believe he's living with a woman named Ikuko and "recovering" memories of an incident that never happened involving people who never existed in a place that never was. Because that was totally my idea.

But it's certainly worth asking: How does he know he's Battler, exactly? How does he know there was a Battler? I realize that from a narrative standpoint most people would say there was one simply because otherwise who were we talking about to begin with. That's probably the truth. But looking at it strictly from his perspective, can he even know that? Probably not. After all, Touya could doubt every one of his "memories" as being something that was planted there based on what he thinks he knows of "Ushiromiya Battler." There's no way to distinguish between "memories returning" and "falsely remembering based on later information," ultimately.

He really can't ever be sure of who he was, perhaps absent some physical evidence (such as old photographs) that we aren't sure he's ever actually seen. It's not like Ange would be able to physically recognize him with certainty years and years later.

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Old 2012-08-23, 11:36   Link #30120
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Ryukushi left the gender matter up to his readers
He never said anything about it. Don't jump to conclusions.
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I'll tell them that Natsuhi had the baby for 3 days total and it is possible that she just didn't care, also that reasoning won't work , because story didn't tell us if she knew or not
In manga Natsuhi seems to be pretty sure that the child she tried to murder was male, so if Yasu is female she's probably not that child.
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