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Old 2012-08-23, 11:50   Link #81
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunarskylar View Post
on the next page, 510 page 3, you can clearly see the normal sharingan as well as an exploding tag passing through tobi's face.
Is this the proof everyone's been looking for?
ok I see what you're saying. imo that is when he ended kamui and began another plan of action. that frame at the top of p3 is when tobi realizes that kamui isn't enough to escape the situation and like i've said before, kishi was unable to ever show us Tobi's MS for mystery purposes which is why we never get a deactivation panel

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Originally Posted by Apollian View Post
Tobi's is powered up! if you look at how Edo Madara can use Mokoton because the 1st's DNA/body has been fused to his chest.. Tobi is spamming his MS like flavor of the month, so it has to be EMS not MS, which means those eyes aren't his!.. if he was Obito, and kept the same eyes, he'd be blind by now. It's either Izuna or Kagami.
its not EMS. if it was it would be a different pattern than Kakashi's MS. you dont know that he'd be blind by now. you just said yourself that the 1st's dna powers uchiha up which is correct so it stands to reason that the 1st's dna prolongs the light of a MS
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:00   Link #82
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
You're not making sense again. You were asked to cite an instance where Tobi is perfoming Kamui while using a regular sharingan, and instead you reference perhaps the only time in the manga where he states he is going to reserve his use of the technique. A "good one" indeed :/
You might want to read those chapters again, and also the recent chapters. When Tobi sends parts of his body to another dimension he is using Kamui as Kakashi and Tobi have confirmed it in the latest chapters. Konan confirms that Tobi's limit on maintaining his Kamui used on his own body is 5 mintues. So she starts to explode her exploding tags for 10 minutes non-stop, she does this to prevent Tobi from escaping. We see Tobi's eyes at least 2 times while Konan is exploding tags around and inside Tobi non-stop. At one point (probably right before his Kamui runs out) Tobi removes the part of his mask that was covering his other sharingan eyes, this is clearly the part where he begins the Izanagi as a last resort to escape death.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Tobi isn't even using the technique on either of the pages you cite, i.e. there is nothing moving through him.
If there were nothing forcing him to use Kamui he could have either escaped the exploding tags by teleporting away or simply stop it, rest a bit, and then do another Kamui so that he would extend his Kamui beyond Konan's 10 minute timespan. But he couldn't do that that is why Konan forced him to use the izanagi.

Of course i will not be surprised if it turns out that you were right, it would simply be another plot hole in the manga.
But i like the idea of Tobi being able to perform an MS-level jutsu using only regular sharingan eye, that would be something that makes him really special, as a final evil boss should be. Otherwise it should also be explained why didn't he go blind or why does he have an EMS. And also how can he spam MS/EMS jutsu so easily if he earlier stated that he is weak, and also he never used any rinnegan power in this battle (likely reason explalined by Kakashi).
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:01   Link #83
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Itachi was never seen with his MS pattern while using Tsukiyomi until the second time Sasuke was thinking about the night of the Uchiha Massacre during the Valley of the End fight with Naruto. Not showing Tobi's MS pattern even though he uses MS techniques is not the first time this happened.

I would love to see Kakashi rip the MS out of Tobi and combine it with his own after this fight.
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:14   Link #84
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Sticking with my original theory

I am sticking with my original theory of Tobi being time/space travelling Sasuke. The eye he just used is actually the same eye as Kakashi's, just taken from him later on in the timeline. This also explains the discrepancies in the hair length. It all makes sense if you think about it. Who else hates the Uchiha clan AND Konoha more?

Obito did not have hate in his heart. He died giving his eye to his best friend. To think he could be twisted so much... I don't think so. Gotta.be.time.travelling.Sasuke.
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:23   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It can't be EMS, however. EMS combines the pattern of the user's sharingan with the pattern of the embedded sharingan.
I don't remember clearly, but wasn't it also stated that to get EMS you need to take a MS from a close family member (brother, sister, mother, father). Otherwise it wouldn't work.
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:30   Link #86
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
All I see are the sound effects coming out of the eye that starts Izanagi. And when an eye makes a sound in Naruto, something is going down. The same eye makes a sound on page 3, then a more dramatic sound on page 4. Maybe you are correct and Page 4 was supposed to be the specific start of the technique, but Kishimoto can easily retcon the situation so page 3 is the official start.
There are no sound effects in the panel on page 3, just exclamation marks. The sound effect is on the frame on page 4 that I referenced. And yes, Kishi could retcon anything with an asspull, but until then the frame on page 3 is clearly an example of the regular Sharingan being enough to have something pass through Tobi.

EDIT: I thought I'd clarify something because why not: I fully believe that Tobi is using the exact same Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu Kakashi normally uses in this chapter. It seems to me, based on what's been shown in the manga, that Obito's eyes have a special ability they can use without the Mangekyou Sharingan and another related one that requires it.

Normal Sharingan: The ability to transfer one's own body or things directly touching it between the physical world and the other dimension. This is what Tobi has been using every time we've seen him up until this battle.

Mangekyou Sharingan ("Kamui"): The ability to transfer things between the physical world and the other dimension without physically touching them, even from a distance. This is what Kakashi has been using since after the time skip. Tobi has already used Kamui during this fight to fire the giant shurikens and stakes (since he clearly wasn't holding those things in his hands before they were transferred). Tobi is indeed showing Kakashi the "real power of Kamui" by using it this way, since Kakashi has only managed to use Kamui to send things to the other dimension, not bring them back.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2012-08-23 at 12:56.
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Old 2012-08-23, 12:48   Link #87
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The cliffhanger was good, but waiting for it is going to be an extreme pain in the ass.
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:05   Link #88
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
but until then the frame on page 3 is clearly an example of the regular Sharingan being enough to have something pass through Tobi.
it could just as easily be the end of the kamui technique

edit: or as someone stated, it could just be a mistake in the writing/artwork. we did see the raikage grow back an arm for 1 chapter after all

Quote:
Tobi has already used Kamui during this fight to fire the giant shurikens and stakes (since he clearly wasn't holding those things in his hands before they were transferred). Tobi is indeed showing Kakashi the "real power of Kamui" by using it this way, since Kakashi has only managed to use Kamui to send things to the other dimension, not bring them back.
by your logic he wasn't using kamui to fire the giant shuriken because we didn't 'see' his MS at that time and on the top of p7 he has 'normal sharingan'

see how silly it gets when you break it down that way? i think you guys are thinking about this too much. along that logic i could state that anytime a MS jutsu was used by anyone without clearly seeing it then it was possible they just used their 'normal sharingan' to perform a MS technique

that reasoning unnecessarily complicates things (which kishi has done from time to time like with izanagi and izanami so who knows...) but if you are seeking a reason for tobi not being blind then look no further than his senju dna
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Old 2012-08-23, 13:26   Link #89
Discerptor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it could just as easily be the end of the kamui technique
Izanagi wouldn't make the paper pass through him. It would blow up and damage him but he'd be fine afterwards.

Quote:
edit: or as someone stated, it could just be a mistake in the writing/artwork. we did see the raikage grow back an arm for 1 chapter after all
This is an explanation from outside the presented material that there is no reason to assume is the case until Kishi retcons.

Quote:
by your logic he wasn't using kamui to fire the giant shuriken because we didn't 'see' his MS at that time and on the top of p7 he has 'normal sharingan'
My logic is based on the fact that we were explicitly shown Tobi passing through an object when using the regular Sharingan (NOT the same as simply not being shown the Mangekyou - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, etc.) and that there is a clear difference between his normally-used jutsu and Kakashi's in terms of mechanics.

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see how silly it gets when you break it down that way? i think you guys are thinking about this too much. along that logic i could state that anytime a MS jutsu was used by anyone without clearly seeing it then it was possible they just used their 'normal sharingan' to perform a MS technique
Except I didn't. You did to pretend I was arguing from a place I wasn't. There's a huge difference between simply not clearly seeing something and very clearly seeing that the opposite is the case in a close-up frame.

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that reasoning unnecessarily complicates things (which kishi has done from time to time like with izanagi and izanami so who knows...) but if you are seeking a reason for tobi not being blind then look no further than his senju dna
It's not at all farfetched or extraordinarily complicated when you consider that there was a nearly identical duality of special Sharingan jutsu with Shisui's eyes. There was the weaksauce version that Danzou used, which required actively channeling and being nearby the victim, and there was the awesome version where you just had to give the command once and not worry about it ever again. I'm not looking for a reason for Tobi to not be blind; I'm perfectly fine waiting for Kishi to give an explanation, if one is even needed (Senju DNA does wonders).
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:02   Link #90
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I'm just wondering: Does Tobi has access to two different dimensions?
Or where does he get the stuff he throws (Shuriken, and those Bijuu-taming bars) from? If they are in the same dimension, he always vanishes to, then shouldn't he hurt himself, if he suddenly runs into a Shuriken, he stored there for later use?
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:15   Link #91
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I'm just wondering: Does Tobi has access to two different dimensions?
Or where does he get the stuff he throws (Shuriken, and those Bijuu-taming bars) from? If they are in the same dimension, he always vanishes to, then shouldn't he hurt himself, if he suddenly runs into a Shuriken, he stored there for later use?
Lol indeed... Kishi dosen't do in satire but sometimes it just come at you without telling. ^^
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:18   Link #92
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^ that's no two different dimensions, that's "pull-from-ass no jutsu" also know as "summoning", a thing we have seen millions of times in Naruto.
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:34   Link #93
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Izanagi wouldn't make the paper pass through him. It would blow up and damage him but he'd be fine afterwards.
right. i didnt say he was using izanagi at that time. i said he stopped using kamui


Quote:
This is an explanation from outside the presented material that there is no reason to assume is the case until Kishi retcons.
i agree. just bringing up that it could happen


Quote:
My logic is based on the fact that we were explicitly shown Tobi passing through an object when using the regular Sharingan (NOT the same as simply not being shown the Mangekyou - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, etc.) and that there is a clear difference between his normally-used jutsu and Kakashi's in terms of mechanics.
the paper bombs were continuous correct? and he ended kamui correct? therefore there must have been a time when some of the paper bombs were severed and didnt completely pass through him. hence that panel on p3 you are citing


Quote:
Except I didn't. You did to pretend I was arguing from a place I wasn't. There's a huge difference between simply not clearly seeing something and very clearly seeing that the opposite is the case in a close-up frame.
except you dont acknowledge that he ended kamui before he used izanagi. why cant that image be that moment? keeping in mind that kishi was forced to not show his MS eye we are only disputing a fraction of a second worth of time here. like i said earlier in this post, it may have been impossible for tobi to stop kamui while keeping all the explosive tags whole since they were continuously passing through him

Quote:
It's not at all farfetched or extraordinarily complicated when you consider that there was a nearly identical duality of special Sharingan jutsu with Shisui's eyes. There was the weaksauce version that Danzou used, which required actively channeling and being nearby the victim, and there was the awesome version where you just had to give the command once and not worry about it ever again.
you could be right about that but it does seem more complicated to me and needlessly at that.
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:51   Link #94
Dengar
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Guys guys guys! What are you guys even arguing about!


Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi before his Mangekyou was revealed, several chapters afterwards.

Kishi showing us a normal sharingan because he isn't ready to reveal the MS yet isn't anything new.
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:14   Link #95
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Guys guys guys! What are you guys even arguing about!


Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi before his Mangekyou was revealed, several chapters afterwards.

Kishi showing us a normal sharingan because he isn't ready to reveal the MS yet isn't anything new.
That's exactly one example of how Kishi always made a big deal of someone turning on his MS eyes. Itachi's eyes were not shown in the manga, one of the biggest mistakes of the anime was that it showed a normal sharingan eye instead, at that time i didn't even notice that but there were some discussions about it on the forums here. Even recently before Madara uses his jutsu it is shown how he turns on his EMS and then his rinnegan. But it's true that this was not always consistent: for example Danzou could cast his genjutsu on the samurai leader even without removing the bandages, while Kakashi always removes his mask when using his sharingan, also it was shown how Tobi removes the part of the mask that covered the other eye which in retrospective made it clear that he began using izanagi just then. Just like in case of Danzou, he removed those large metal things from his arms before using izanagi. I guess it's simply story driven, so for example Tobi removed the mask part because it was a nice hint for the readers that he wants to use the other eye. Then in case of Tobi showing the MS pattern was forbidden by the story, even if it's a plot hole. But it's fun to discuss about these little details Also i think that given the magical powers of 1st hokage's cells we can safely assume that it can magically upgrade the sharingan eyes, especially if Tobi himself tells to Konan that 1st Hokage's DNA + Uchiha DNA results in the Sage of 6 paths.
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:20   Link #96
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
right. i didnt say he was using izanagi at that time. i said he stopped using kamui

the paper bombs were continuous correct? and he ended kamui correct? therefore there must have been a time when some of the paper bombs were severed and didnt completely pass through him. hence that panel on p3 you are citing

except you dont acknowledge that he ended kamui before he used izanagi. why cant that image be that moment? keeping in mind that kishi was forced to not show his MS eye we are only disputing a fraction of a second worth of time here. like i said earlier in this post, it may have been impossible for tobi to stop kamui while keeping all the explosive tags whole since they were continuously passing through him
The issue with this is that he clearly didn't start using Izanagi until at least the panel on page 4 where he's tearing off the part of the mask covering his left eye. In between those two panels, enough time passes for Konan to verbally explain to Tobi that there are enough paper tags for 10 minutes of explosions. In those several seconds, we would have had paper tags blowing Tobi up.

Quote:
you could be right about that but it does seem more complicated to me and needlessly at that.
Even if it does turn out that Tobi has been using the Mangekyou Sharingan this whole time, I think there's enough evidence to conclude that the jutsu we normally see him use is different from what we've seen Kakashi use (and what he's using now with the stakes). If it were the same, then he wouldn't have needed to get close enough to grab Fu and Torune to suck them into the other dimension at all, since Kakashi has now shown us with Naruto's shadow clone that you can indeed use Kamui to suck entire people into the other dimension from a distance away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But it's true that this was not always consistent: for example Danzou could cast his genjutsu on the samurai leader even without removing the bandages, while Kakashi always removes his mask when using his sharingan, also it was shown how Tobi removes the part of the mask that covered the other eye which in retrospective made it clear that he began using izanagi just then. Just like in case of Danzou, he removed those large metal things from his arms before using izanagi.
In all fairness, Danzou did undo the bandage on the eye at the end of his fight with Sasuke, and Tobi explained that Danzou was probably still deciding whether to use it for mind control or Izanagi. It could just be that certain Sharingan jutsus require that the eye be uncovered while others don't, with Izanagi and Kamui being among the ones that do.





Of course, all said and done, I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit if Kishi just goofed with that panel.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2012-08-23 at 16:33.
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Old 2012-08-23, 17:35   Link #97
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Kishi has a nice way of unmasking his characters.
Spoiler for :

Spoiler for Tobi is Haku!:


Anyone expecting Kakashi's face to be revealed in a similar fashion?
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Old 2012-08-23, 17:52   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasheks View Post
Kishi has a nice way of unmasking his characters.
Spoiler for :

Spoiler for Tobi is Haku!:


Anyone expecting Kakashi's face to be revealed in a similar fashion?
I knew it xD
Haku never died xD
He just got a new Mask and Hairstyle xD

NO it is.....
Spoiler for Tobi...:
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:11   Link #99
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Black0raz0r View Post
NO it is.....
Spoiler for Tobi...:
People say that he was defeated by Bruce Lee in the valley of the end. But what is the truth?
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:38   Link #100
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Locking in my final answer for who is the masked man:
Not obito, but an older blood relative of his, an asspull character kishi has not introduced.
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